Eric Hovind #fundie

Eric Hovind #fundie creationtoday.org

[re: recent revlations that Christian conservative Josh Duggar molested girls in his youth]

The truth is, it is you who is applying a double standard. If evolution is true, then there is no absolute right and wrong. If evolution is true Josh should not have admitted his faults over a decade ago because what one evolved bag of molecules does to another bag of molecules just doesn’t really matter. If evolution is true there is no ultimate Judge on the bench who will hold every man, woman, and child responsible for their actions. And if evolution is true you will not give an account for every idle word you speak.

The truth is, we all use Christian Morality to judge people. The very idea of judgment comes from Christianity.

70 comments

old comment by The Crimson Ghost

Get the FUCK outta here.

Evolution has nothing to do with the fact that Josh Buggar groped his sisters. He admitted to doing so & his complicit parents covered up for him, making them all hypocrites of the highest order. This is the WORST defense of that fat faced little serial sister groping hypocrite that I've ever seen.

While I certainly don't like the reason for this spectacle (multiple girls being sexually assaulted), I am loving the fall out. I normally don't care about celebrities of any flavor, but this is just too much fun to not read. I'm looking for watching their entire business scam collapse like a house of cards. It'll happen.

I hate the Buggars.

old comment by Swede

Evolution is true, so is gravity and photosynhesis. Neither has any impact on this.

Children who are molested are traumatized, that is why we have made it a crime to molest children.

There are judges in criminal court who will hold criminal people responsible for their actions.

There is no absolute right and wrong in Christian Morality either, asshole!
Thou shalt not kill. Well, unless God orders you to kill ever man, woman, child and cattle of the Amalekites.

If you use Christian Morality, you ought to be as judgmental against people eating shellfish or working on the Sabbath, as you are against gay people.
Besides, which chapter and verse in the Bible states that it's wrong to molest children?

old comment by Nemo

Eric, the moral argument has weaknesses already, but you made them even worse. No, the idea of judgement does NOT come from Christianity. The pagan mythologies which preceded Christianity and influenced it (yes, Eric) all had their notions of an afterlife and judgement based on your deeds.

Here's the actual truth, Eric. If you are more offended by the idea of someone being beaten up for being gay than you are with the idea of them being gay, you are not using Christian morality.

If you think that women and men should be free to self actualize without worrying about fulfilling the arbitrary roles set out by desert barbarians, you are not using Christian morality.

If you believe that freedom of thought is one of the most important freedoms of all, you are not using Christian morality.

My list could go on and on and on. Might I suggest reading some John Stuart Mill, Eric?

old comment by

STOP CHERRY PICKING! Slavery in biblical times was not about colors. The bible is against rape here proof........

Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 command a rape victim to marry her rapist?

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Question: "Does Deuteronomy 22:28-29 command a rape victim to marry her rapist?"

Answer: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is often pointed to by atheists, skeptics, and other Bible attackers as evidence that the Bible is backwards, cruel, and misogynist, and therefore, not the Word of God. At first glance, this passage seems to command that a rape victim must marry her rapist. Is that the correct interpretation of the text, and if so, how is that not horribly unfair to the woman? This issue is actually addressed in two passages, both of which are below:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."

Exodus 22:16-17 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride price for virgins."

Together, these passages clearly state that if a man has sex with a virgin who is not betrothed (regardless of whether or not it was rape or consensual) he is obliged to marry her. He should have sought her father's permission first, negotiated a bride-price, and taken her as his wife. Because he did not, he is punished for thishe now must pay up (he can't opt out any more) and marry her (which could be a major punishment in itself if this was a foolish, spur-of-the-moment act and she really wasn't the right woman for him!).

Also note that "he may not divorce her all his days" this initially doesn't seem significant but is actually a major punishment. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 (restated more clearly in Matthew 5:32 and 19:9) allowed for divorce, but only in the case of sexual immorality (the word "uncleanness" refers to this and was translated as such in the LXX). This man now may not divorce his wife even for this reason, but is obliged to continue to support her all his life whatever she does.

But her father is ultimately in authority over her, as her head, until he hands this authority over to her husband. If the man is unsuitable, the father can refuse to give his daughter to him. How many fathers would give their daughter to a rapist? Not many. So, in general, a rapist would actually have to pay a 50 silver shekel fine to her father, and not get a wife at all.

The answer to the question is in Exodus 22:17 - the woman does NOT have to marry a rapist, she must only do what her father says.

Note that throughout the Old Testament no rape victim is ever recorded as being forced to marry a rapist. However it is plausible that there could be circumstances in which a father would choose to have his daughter marry a rapist. In 2 Samuel 13, Amnon, a son of David, rapes his half-sister, Tamar. Tamar was not forced to marry Amnon. Interestingly, though, Tamar seemed to have wanted to marry Amnon after the rape (2 Samuel 13:13-16). Why would she desire such a thing? In that culture, virginity was highly prized. It would have been very difficult for a woman who was not a virgin, and especially a woman who had been raped, to find a man to marry her. It seems that Tamar would have rather married Amnon than live desolate and single the rest of her life, which is what happened to her (2 Samuel 13:20). So Deuteronomy 22:28-29 could be viewed as merciful to the woman, who, because of the rape, would be considered unmarriageable. In that culture, a woman without a husband would have a very difficult time providing for herself. Unmarried women often had no choice but to sell themselves into slavery or prostitution just to survive. This is why the passage leaves marriage to the discretion of the father, because every situation is different, and it is better to be flexible than have a blanket rule.

Also note that the penalty for having sex with an unbetrothed virgin is completely different from the penalty for sex with a married or betrothed woman. Sex with a married or betrothed woman is adultery and was to be punished by the death of both if consensual, or the death of the man if it was rape (Deuteronomy 22:22-27).

Recommended Resources: Deuteronomy, Holman Old Testament Commentary by Doug McIntosh and Logos Bible Software.

Related Topics:

What does the Bible say about rape?

Is God cruel?

What does it mean that God is a God of justice?

Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?

Is it wrong to question God?

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old comment by

And another one

What does the Bible say about rape?

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Question: "What does the Bible say about rape?"

Answer: The Bible does address the issue of rape. As expected, when the Bible mentions the crime of rape, it is depicted as a gross violation of God’s design for the treatment of the human body (Genesis 34). The Bible condemns rape whenever it is mentioned. For example, there is a particular passage in the laws given to the nation of Israel before entering the Promised Land under Joshua’s leadership. This passage (Deuteronomy 22:13-29) spoke directly against forcing a woman into a sexual encounter against her will, or what we know today as rape. This command was meant to protect women and to protect the nation of Israel from committing sinful actions.

Deuteronomy 22:25-27 mentioned the punishment the Mosaic Law commanded for a man who raped a woman. The man was to be killed by stoning while the woman was considered innocent. Though the Mosaic Law was for the nation of Israel during the time of Moses, the principle is clear that rape was sinful in the eyes of God and led to the most extreme punishment possibledeath for the rapist.

There are some difficult passages in the Old Testament, however, in relation to this issue. Critics of the Bible are quick to point to Numbers 31 (and other similar passages) in which the Israelites were allowed to take female captives from nations they conquered. Critics make the accusation that this is an example of the Bible condoning, or even promoting, rape. However, the passage says nothing about raping the captive women. It is wrong to assume that the captive women were to be raped. Again, Deuteronomy 22:25-27 condemns rape, even advocating the death penalty for perpetrators of rape. In the Numbers 31 passage the soldiers were commanded to purify themselves and their captives (verse 19). Rape would have violated this command (see Leviticus 15:16-18). The women who were taken captive are never referred to as sexual objects. Did the captive women likely eventually marry amongst the Israelites? Yes. Is there any indication that rape or sex slavery was forced upon the women? Absolutely not.

In the New Testament, rape is not mentioned directly, but within the Jewish culture of its writers, rape would have been considered as sexual immorality. As such, both Jesus and His followers (including the apostle Paul) spoke against sexual immorality, even offering it as justifiable grounds for divorce when a person actively committed sexual acts outside of the bond of marriage (Matthew 5:32). This would not, however, apply to the victim of rape, only the one who committed the act.

Further, the New Testament is clear that Christians are to obey the laws of their governing authorities (Romans 13). Not only is rape morally wrong; it is also wrong according to the laws of our governing authorities. As such, anyone who would commit this crime should expect dire consequences, including arrest and imprisonment.

To the victims of rape, much care and compassion must be offered. God’s Word often speaks about helping those in need and in vulnerable situations. Christians would do well to practice these teachings and model the love and compassion of Christ by assisting victims of rape in any way possible.

To those who have committed rape, we must remember two things. First, people are responsible for the sins they commit. Second, however, no one is beyond the grace of God. Even in the lives of those who have committed the vilest of sins, God can extend forgiveness to any who will repent and turn from their evil ways (1 John 1:9). This does not remove the need for punishment according to the law, but it can offer hope, even to those whose sins have made them outcasts in the eyes of others.

Recommended Resources: Rid of My Disgrace: Hope and Healing for Victims of Sexual Assault by Lindsey & Justin Holcomb and Logos Bible Software.

Eric Hovind #fundie creationtoday.org

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