[Replying to an article on <a href="http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7A2ACB68-C9AC-4CF9-A723-7D242E4862C4.htm " target="_blank">David Irving who was sentenced to 3 years in prision for holocaust denial</a>. David Irving won and appeal to serve out the rest of his sentence on probation instead.]
This is a great triumph for free speech, expression, and historical revisionism. The sad thing is though, these disgusting atrocious "Holocaust-denial" laws are still on the books and enforced rigidly throughout occupied Europe, and there are other men rotting in prison right now for merely expressing their opinions with no end in sight. These modern-day Galileos will one day be rewarded for what they've gone through in this dark time...
31 comments
Hmm...this is only moderately fundie, if at all. I'm no fan of Holocaust deniers, and there's no sane way you can compare them to Galileo, but I believe in freedom of speech, and as long as it isn't _directly_ inciting violence, speech needs to be protected. Even Holocaust denial. It's allowing people to think things that you don't agree with that makes for a good society.
Read some actual history on Galileo, buddy; he wasn't quite the martyr you think he was.
Oh, and die in a fucking fire. History happened. The Holocaust happened. I truly can't comprehend how anyone can, in all seriousness, deny the atrocities that were committed. There's no fucking conspiracy; you're just an asshole.
To be honest, I think he's right (aside from the Galileo bit). The laws against denying the Holocaust ARE disgusting and atrocious. Admittedly, so are people who deny the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean we should deny them free speech.
DF, at it again, are ya?
Still a lying sack of shit, too, I see.
The so-called "holocaust denial" laws are actually anti-hate laws. Denying the Nazi atrocities is tantamount to accepting said atrocities. Deniers/apologists for the Nazi atrocities DO spread hate, and should be subject to punishment for spreading hate.
Do carry on with your mud-pies.
It works differently in Europe, but not all that differently. There aren't too many Western countries where you can be jailed for saying, well, anything. While I disagree vehemently with any assertion that the Holocaust was anything but very real and ruthless genocide, I also won't support incarcerating people for what they say, regardless of what it is.
Hmm...this is only moderately fundie, if at all. I'm no fan of Holocaust deniers, and there's no sane way you can compare them to Galileo, but I believe in freedom of speech, and as long as it isn't _directly_ inciting violence, speech needs to be protected. Even Holocaust denial. It's allowing people to think things that you don't agree with that makes for a good society.
I complee agreetly!
Holocaust deniers may be totally nuts, but they have a right to be.
Even if there is freedom of speech, the limits are the victims of the Holocaust´s right to have a recognition. That is the root of the laws, even if I find them unfair. And they are not Galileos. They are just denying, with no evidence, reports, testimonies and proofs, just to try to rehabilitate a long dead ideology. Historical revisionism is only good, of course, only as long as it revise what YOU want to be revised.
Irving is an oily weasel, but it is a bad law. Prosecute people for saying Jews ought to be exterminsted, fine. Not for denying that they were.
DF, on t'other hand, is an unrepentant Nazi, and ought to be locked up under the premise I outlined above.
I'm torn. On the one hand, Europe still has a huge problem with nationalism, and neonazism. On the other hand, I believe in free speech.
I guess I don't agree with the European laws, but I do understand why they have them. Restricting speech is a very dangerous precedent, however.
The laws are bullshit, but so are deniers and revisionists. Still, it amuses me that we all fought for freedom and justice and all that, and now you can be locked up for saying the wrong thing.
@Whitewater
DF, at it again, are ya?
Still a lying sack of shit, too, I see.
The so-called "holocaust denial" laws are actually anti-hate laws. Denying the Nazi atrocities is tantamount to accepting said atrocities. Deniers/apologists for the Nazi atrocities DO spread hate, and should be subject to punishment for spreading hate.
Do carry on with your mud-pies.
Whitewater, because the 'anti-hate' laws DO punish those for holocaust denial, they effectively ARE "holocaust denial" laws, much in the same way anti-drug laws are effectively anti-marijuana laws, or are effectively anti-crack cocaine laws.
"He says po-tay-to, you say po-tah-to..."
On a more personal note, Whitewater, you once told me that you were an anarchist. Are you aware that anti-hate laws and anti-hate speech laws are completely opposed by the principles of anarchism?
Now, I am not placing a value judgment on your views which support hate speech laws, I am just saying that the label 'anarchist' might not fit someone who supports hate speech laws. I think a more accurate label for one who supports such views would be 'Communitarian' .
What's all this about 'Europe'? AFAIK, only Germany & Austria have 'Holocaust-denial'/anti-Nazi laws, because they were the two countries most instrumental in Nazism and they wanted to ensure that it didn't happen again. There are more countries in Europe than those two.
I find myself reluctantly agreeing with the basic idea in DF's post. The right of free speech includes the right to say outrageous, erroneous, and potentially offensive things. It should not be a crime to take the public position that the Holocaust did not occur. Being wrong is not criminal. The reason for these laws is that in certain areas, amongst certain groups, it rarely stops at talk...
Would DF have a problem with a law prohibiting Muslim calls to prayer or signe in Arabic in the United States...?
But DF seems to forget that many nations on this earth do not, in fact, have an established principal of free speech int their governing philosophy...
What I disagree with is the fact that DF doesn't really seem to know what "historical revisionism" is. He seems to think it means correcting the historical record when it really means to alter the historical record for political or philosophical reasons. (Such as when for hundreds of years Columbus was recast in the role of brave and daring explorer out to discover the New World.) I also take exception to DF's position that Holocaust deniers should be celebrated for their "bravery," and the fact that he seems to want to suppress any one who acknowledges the Holocaust, which is just turnabout.
What's all this about 'Europe'? AFAIK, only Germany & Austria have 'Holocaust-denial'/anti-Nazi laws, because they were the two countries most instrumental in Nazism and they wanted to ensure that it didn't happen again. There are more countries in Europe than those two.
----------------------------------------
Treacle Worshipper , Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, France, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland all have holocaust denial laws.
As much as I hate to say it, his general message is right. Denying people who are assholes the right to say assholey ideas is turning yourself into an asshole. Free Speech is unpopular speech. No one needs free speech to protect them for saying "babies are cute". It's meant to protect people who say the most horrible and offensive ideas. In turn we have a right to look or turn away and not listen to it. Suppressing ideas does not make them go away.
I have to partially agree with this person, as much as that pains me. I do believe in free speech, even when what they have to say is idiotic. See that's the lovely part, I'm just as free to say how retarded it is to try and deny the holocaust as they are to deny it. This person may be racist, but I see no evidence of fundie.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
To post a comment, you'll need to Sign in or Register . Making an account also allows you to claim credit for submitting quotes, and to vote on quotes and comments. You don't even need to give us your email address.