The biggest problem I have with Evolution is that it requires death long before Adam ate the fruit. How could God call that "good", let alone "very good"? Since death did not enter the world until the fall it isn't possible for this to be. Unless you rearrange and majorly reinterrperit the first Chapters of Genesis. Also, there is no way that "science" can give us all of the answers. If it could then there would be no need for faith. We would be able to get all of our answers by ourselves. I believe that God keeps many things a secret from us because (a) we can't understand, and (b) it is a part of his mystery whis is a part of his glory
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"Unless you rearrange and majorly reinterrperit the first Chapters of Genesis."
Why don't you try that, because facts aren't on it's side.
Unless you rearrange and majorly reinterrperit the first Chapters of Genesis.
Too late. Been there. Done that.
The first two chapters have already been rearranged. (Since they contradict each other, it's obvious they were derived from two different sources and then mish-mashed together.) And fundies have been "majorly reinterrperiting" them for centuries every time they claim there's no contradiction.
"Death did not enter the world until the fall" is an invention of Paul, not Genesis. In fact, in Genesis, God kicks Adam and Eve out of the Garden to keep them from eating from the Tree of Life and becoming immortal. Why would God have a tree that grants immortality if there were no death and everyone were immortal anyway?
Paul said in Romans:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
But then he said in 2 Timothy:
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death , and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
But clearly people still die; so either the "death" he's talking about isn't the physical death of the body, or he's just full of crap and made up stuff that wasn't in Genesis. Pick one.
"The biggest problem I have with Evolution is that it requires death long before Adam ate the fruit. How could God call that "good", let alone "very good"? "
Since your god doesn't exist, it doesn't matter why he would or wouldn't say something.
Translation: I don't like facts because they challenge my brainwashing.
I believe that God keeps many things a secret from us because
I'm guessing Alaskadrifter also has a problem with the idea that bats aren't birds.
His biggest problem, in reality, is thinking that all science must presuppose a literal reading of the Christian Bible to be correct.
That's precisely one of Genesis weak points. Animals die, and they didn't eat the fruit. Plants die and cells die. Death is a natural process, nothing to do with any original sin. In fact, it's a metaphore. What they mean is that they were aware that they were going to die(similar meaning in St Paul, who was the first who brought the subject, by the way)
"Also, there's no way that 'science' can give us all the answers. If it could then there would be no need for faith. We would be able to get all of our answers by ourselves."
Please, fundies. Please listen to me. It's all right. Trust me, you don't need to know all the answers, and you don't have to just take some random crap answer based on faith. You can embrace the mystery, and wonder at it, and be curious about it, and eventually expore it.
What happened when lightning was a mystery? We invented Zeus to explain it. And then science eventually probed the mystery and we learned the answer. This has happened over and over and over again - please break the pattern.
"The biggest problem I have with Evolution is that it requires death long before Adam ate the fruit. How could God call that 'good,' let alone 'very good'?"
Who cares? That was a myth , a story, a fable. Reality is not obliged to justify it. There are plenty of people who enjoy fairy tales without believing that wolves can talk to little girls and convincingly impersonate their grandmothers by dressing in drag. The fact that evolution does not explain how wolves could do this (when they clearly cannot) is not a point against evolution; it is an indication of the nonfactual nature of fairy tales.
In other words, the tales in Genesis are fiction. None of them ever happened. Now do you get it?
"Since death did not enter the world until the fall it isn't possible for this to be"
Assuming some ancient fairytale is true.
"Unless you rearrange and majorly reinterrperit the first Chapters of Genesis"
Or realize that they're bs.
"there is no way that "science" can give us all of the answers"
Yes, it can, because that's exactly what it does.
"If it could then there would be no need for faith"
There IS NO need for faith!
"We would be able to get all of our answers by ourselves"
Well, enough answers to get by in daily life. I don't know how the universe started, but evolution almost certainly happened.
"That's precisely one of Genesis weak points. Animals die, and they didn't eat the fruit. Plants die and cells die. Death is a natural process, nothing to do with any original sin. In fact, it's a metaphore. What they mean is that they were aware that they were going to die(similar meaning in St Paul, who was the first who brought the subject, by the way)"
Did the Hebrews that passed along this midrashim take this metaphor as they were aware they were dieing for the first time or dieing for the first time? Or we could despite the pre-existing antecedent view replace it with our own presumptions (to fix it so it makes sense with reality) the metaphorical fruit simple made them *aware* of child birth, working in fields, dieing, and morals? Or we could except that this is just Hebraic midrash, basically another cultures mythos, cosmogony, and reality is humans where aware 250,000 years before anyone even started telephoning down a story about a snake and some fruit. In fact in the light of evolution this metaphorical story as a basis for original sin requires more than just a little cognitive dissonance as we weren't the only species to evolve awareness or art, you have a plethora of hominids that displayed this ability in their burials and what they were buried with. Will I meet a Neanderthal, Cro-Magnon Man, or homo sapient (not homo sapien sapien (us)) in heaven too? Does Jesus also die for their sins as well, or can we admit that sin too is but a metaphor, it seems silly though to die for just a metaphor doesn't it?
you assume that death, any death and all death, is inheretly bad under all circumstances. you further assume that God has the same perspective on this that you do. you then assume that god intentionally created a badly designed universe just so that scientists wouldn't be able to explain it. your problem is not so much bad logic as it is stupid presumptions.
"Science" doesn't give a shit about answering any silly bronze-age cosmological question, but rather is engaged in defining every natural process in the real world.
g0d's main secret is that he's a total fraud, but he hungers for your soul anyway. Fresh-frozen or barbecued, it doesn't matter.
We would be able to get all of our answers by ourselves.
You're strayin' into dangerous territory, big fellah.
Another vote for so close yet so far...
It's sort of like he was headed straight to the right target but the wrong trajectory, approached too shallow, and bounced right off the atmosphere right back into space.
" The biggest problem I have with Evolution is that it requires death long before Adam ate the fruit. How could God call that "good", let alone "very good"?"
This is a fair enough theological consideration, but the answer is actually ridiculously simple. It's because the antelope eats the grass.
I believe that God keeps many things a secret from us because (a) we can't understand, and (b) it is a part of his mystery whis [which?] is a part of his glory
How does this reconcile with a literal interpretation of the Bible? On the one hand, Alaskadrifter is saying that evolution is impossible because Genesis is literally true; then he's saying that the Bible may not tell us the whole story.
"Also, there is no way that "science" can give us all of the answers. If it could then there would be no need for faith. We would be able to get all of our answers by ourselves."
I actually almost find a spark of hope in this snippet. So close! The idea's there, this poor feller's just fighting it. He's standing right on tiptoe of why the idea of a godless existence isn't all that scary.
"Also, there is no way that "science" can give us all of the answers. If it could then there would be no need for faith"
That's the whole point of science retard, so we don't have to "believe" in made up crap.
"Also, there's no way that 'science' can give us all the answers. If it could then there would be no need for faith. We would be able to get all of our answers by ourselves."
Yeeeah, see, religions are mainly from a time when there were very few scientific explanations to be had, so people made myths to explain stuff. Like lightning is because of Thor, etc. The more science you learn, the less likely you are to believe that Thor actually causes lightning, and so, religion becomes less popular with time.
"Also, there is no way that "science" can give us all of the answers. If it could then there would be no need for faith. We would be able to get all of our answers by ourselves."
We can get all the answers, why have you ever believed faith was necessary?
I consider it a luxury I currently can't afford.
"it is a part of his mystery whis is a part of his glory"
I appreciate mystery and wonder, but I don't want them to take priority over logic and seeking the truth.
I want to enjoy a sunset or whatever and neither have to worry that God made it nor that science dissected it.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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