Satan is so powerful that he can cause people to hate you, persecuate you, and even kill you. Yet, even with all of this, not one hair on your head can be touched if God does not permit it. Where then is Satan's power seen? It is seen in the will of God. Satan can only do what God permits him to do.
See how powerful God is?
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In that case, where is the need for Satan at all?
Ultimately, if Satan is just doing God's will, then Satan is simply his instrument and nothing more; an extension of God. Satan's works are - by this extension - actually the works of God, ergo God is, in effect, Satan.
You satanist.
Bwah? So...Satan can only do what God wants, so, therefore, everything bad that Satan is held responsible for was ultimately permitted, deliberately, by God, making him just as responsible, if not more.
So....why exactly is Satan necessary, again?
Satan can only do what God permits him to do.
So why do you people seem to fear him and demons so much? You see Satan in the simplest of things, like cartoons or books, you want to burn these things, to destroy them because you fear them. But if they can only harm you if God lets them, then why fear them at all?
Unless of course you doubt your own faith.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil : I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 KJV
Think this is what they are referring to. But they should check with their apologists that don't like the translation of that word and changed it in other versions.
The first post here, #511751, says it all. No further comment necessary.
I hope that you have at least partially recovered from those horrors.
In other words, God is really the responsible party here, not Satan, and is the one ultimately responsible for all the world's suffering due to evil. Glad we got that point settled.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?’ - Epicurus
the old guys say it best.
@Allegory for Jesus:
I see. So God has the power to prevent evil, but let's evil exist. In fact judging from the state of the world, God let's Satan run rampant, and does nothing. Those who allow evil when they have the power to prevent it, and have no accountable reason for doing so, are evil. Your god is evil.
You can't claim Satan as the cause of evil, when you say it only would happen if God allows it.
Hey this means god is allowing:
Abortion
You can't blame Satan for any of these things. I mean, it's the will of god, right?
God permits a lot of shitty horrible things, then. He really is a bitch.
I don't get why they blame Satan for so much, then. If GOD can stop him, but doesn't, then it's GOD causing all the stuff they blame on Satan. Talk about a slick operator... God gets all the glory and Satan all the scorn.
This is actually close to the version of "Satan" in the Bible -- as Angel of Temptation.
Still a pretty horrid figure, but doing the work of the Great Sky-Bully in that mythology.
What Professor M reminds me of of what one of my religous friends told me, that the modern 'Satan' is actually a collection of figures from the O.T. who were there to try and tempt humans, as as humans have the will to chose to do evil things.
He also pointed out some other figures who are now thought of by Christians as being Satan who did other things as well. All in all that conversation (complete with several books of the bible where he pointed out the passages) was a very interesting look into monotheistic mythology.
This is kinda off topic, I know, but Professor M reminded me of that.
Let me get this straight: One imaginary character can protect you from another imaginary character?
Do you still have a woobie? (security blankie) that keeps all the monsters in the closet and under the bed at bay?
If someone kills someone and another person stands by and watches while they could clearly and easily stop the act, legally that second person can be and often is convicted in the murder as well. Since most Christians would surely agree with this logic, why should they hold God to lower standards?
So basically, the trinity is actually a quadrinity(?) - Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and Satan.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti, et Diabolus.
By that thinking, satan doesn't really have any power at all. He cannot deceive; he cannot lead one astray. Only god allows that. So, it is god who allows rape, abuse, torture, famine, war, ignorance, hatred, bigotry, and every other evil on the planet. It is god, not satan. Satan is a cover god and fundies use to explain away unexplainable evil.
Yeah, that sounds like a god I want to worship.
If God can stop Satan completely, yet doesn't, then God bears the responsebility for everything Satan does right along with Satan himself. Therefore, God is as evil as Satan.
so in other words, your God is just as bad as Satan, and in fact, Satan couldnt do any of the bad things he supposedly does without God helping him?
wow, we really need to find where your god is hiding so we can kill him, and finally be rid of this tyrant.
And so, who's the bad guy, according to your logic?, God or Satan?. Because people are hated, killed and persecuted everyday. It's something called FREE WILL.
No, I don't see how powerful god is. I do, however, see what a shit head (pardon my french) he is. You're god can go take a flying *ahem* fart at a rolling doughnut as far as I'm concerned.
Argh! See this is why I'm a frigging atheist! Why would you WANT to believe in a god that lets innocent people suffer!
I thought neither God nor Satan could 'cause' anything. They could only hint, trick, manipulate, treathen and bribe, not intefere with Free Will; Satan is not allowed by God (or, according to some, Satan is the one fighting for Free Will) and God by principle (according to other).
@Dinomancer:"In the Old Testament, Satan is sort of the John Ashcroft of God's administration, an unpleasant figure who nevertheless works within the system." - Rotten Library on Satan
From what I understand, Satan in the Jewish mythology is not really an evil being, he's just the guy that God uses to test or punish people. His name just means "adversary". The Christians turned Satan into an evil being who is almost as powerful as God and his exact polar opposite, who runs around trying to make people do evil all day, but that is a pagan idea (I think). God and Satan seem to be on pretty good terms, which is obvious in the book of Job. But then who would Christians blame for every evil thing they do if they didn't make Satan out to be so powerful. They might have to take some responsibility for their actions if he was just one of God's employees. Can't have that. Of course the downside is that they live in fear of an imaginary being who controls everything from the top levels of government to the "secular" music industry, and still has time to put evil thoughts in Christians' heads and tempt them to commit atrocities such as masturbating or wearing a bikini. No thanks, the world is scary enough without worrying about the devil coming to get you.
"Satan can only do what God permits him to do."
If that's the case, then God must really [i]hate[/i] his own be[i]lie[/i]vers, then.
(*sings *)
'I won't believe in heaven and hell . No Devil as well. You're always letting us humans down. '
-"Dear God", XTC
'The man shouted "God will save me, if he exists', lowered himself by a rope into the enclosure, took his shoes off and went up to the lions'
No 'Satan' required. And more than just 'one hair on his head' touched. In Soviet Kiev, Christiasns get in Lions. >:3
...oh, and 'If. ' [/Spartan Laconic Wit].
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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