Richard Kilgore, Pharyngula

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Quote# 38443

[This is comment #37, responding to comment #30 in the thread under the blog entry.]

#30,

I think atheism leads to killing people, in exactly the same sense in which people say "religion leads to killing people". Not always, not necessarily, but there is a clear causal link here.

My reasons are that

(a) atheism depends on, and hence leads to, Darwinism (atheists have no other explanation for the origins of biological diversity).

(b) Darwinism, as an account of the origins of man, casts doubt on our moral intuitions and thoughts (this was argued by Darwinist Michael Ruse).

(c) Anything that casts doubt on our moral intuitions and thoughts also casts doubt on the moral prohibition against killing people.

Richard Kilgore, Pharyngula 34 Comments [4/29/2008 7:34:02 AM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: David D.G.

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#481312

Septic Sceptic

(a) Atheism was around LONG before Darwinism. Technically it's been around as long as there have been people.

(b) Only if you think that you'll turn into a psychopathic lunatic without Big Brother watching you, and go running around killing people and kicking pregnant dogs in the stomach.

(c) See (b).

4/29/2008 7:44:08 AM

#481315

Mattural Selection

I think religion leads to killing people, in exactly the same sense in which you say "atheism leads to killing people". Not always, not necessarily, but there is a clear causal link here.

(a) You see yourself as better than everyone else, and that some people who believe different things than you aren't actually human.

(b) You worship a book that says that genocide, murder and rape are okay.

(c) You idolise people who kill abortion doctors and blow up their clinics. They kill real, living breathing humans to "save" a bunch of cells in someone's gut, and would rather the mother die than the clump of cells not be carried to term.

Bah. I'm sick of this shit.

4/29/2008 7:48:19 AM

#481326

Fanatic-Templar

a) Atheism has nothing at all to do with the theory of evolution. I have no doubts that just as there are retarded theists, there are retarded atheists who cannot grasp the evidence.

b) Darwinism does not exist. Evolution has nothing at all to do with morality, it is an explanation for the diversity of life.

c) No, but it can. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It is good to question our beliefs. Of course, it is important to also arrive at the correct conclusion, that murder is indeed immoral and harmful for society.

On another note, I can perfectly imagine atheism leading to killing people in the same way that religion has murdered countless. Extremism is not limited by belief, after all, and differences have ever inspired bloodshed. Should atheism become the dominant ideology of an uneducated and emotionally manipulated people, than massacres of priests and religious people is entirely conceivable.

4/29/2008 7:58:24 AM

#481351

logicprevails

People who ignore evolution tend to be the folks who need it most.

4/29/2008 8:46:46 AM

#481371

It's like saying that the theory of gravity leads to suicide. Or better, following your logic, the mere act of living and using this computer leads to death.

4/29/2008 9:01:56 AM

#481378

Mr Smith

(a) atheism depends on, and hence leads to, Darwinism (atheists have no other explanation for the origins of biological diversity).

How can it depend on and lead to the same thing?

(b) Darwinism, as an account of the origins of man, casts doubt on our moral intuitions and thoughts (this was argued by Darwinist Michael Ruse).
The number of legs on your average insect and the general lack of success with the goat breeding instructions in the first book of the bible cast doubt on the origins of man. Morals don't come from the science class. You'll find them down the hall in the Humanities faculty.

(c) Anything that casts doubt on our moral intuitions and thoughts also casts doubt on the moral prohibition against killing people.

So therefore anything that challenges the moral state of someone will lead to them killing someone? Supersport, is that you?

4/29/2008 9:11:01 AM

#481398

Freboy

Statistics beg to differ, fuckwit.

4/29/2008 9:23:40 AM

#481420

FMG

1. Yes Atheism does depend on "evolution" which I think is what you mean. Darwinism however is a terrible terrible idea. Survival of what works means we would eliminate a lot of genetic diversity and become weaker as a species. Ironically atheists tend to be more pro life than you think.

2. Darwinism does not. Morality is something we acquire, rules we put in place such that we live in a society. Our morality shifts. For instance the american indians would merely banish criminal individuals from their village. To them thats a death sentence cause a single man would not be capable of surviving for long on his own. Morality does not come from a divine source.

3. Atheists are less likely to kill someone. Having one shot to do something means you are more cautious.

4/29/2008 9:42:54 AM

#481434

aaa

No comment.

4/29/2008 9:53:02 AM

#481435

Jeremy PC

@ Fanatic-Templar: Atheism is not an ideology, it is just the absence of belief in god(s).

Mass murderers such as Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot didn't kill in the name of atheism, or to further the cause of atheism.

4/29/2008 9:53:03 AM

#481456

Paler_Face

Misunderstanding of the theory of evolution leads to social darwinism. Atheism leads to critical thinking in intelligent individuals, and, eventually, enlightenment.

4/29/2008 10:10:31 AM

#481461

Nowonmai

You mean Cain was an atheist Darwinist? Wow!

That's odd.. history is rife with examples of people killing for religions and religious reasons. Haven't heard of anyone mass murdered over how many galaxies the Hubble has spotted.

4/29/2008 10:12:18 AM

#481465

Katsuro

a) Failed one your first reason. Congratualtions. Athesim and "Darwinism" do not always go hand in hand. I know Chrisitan "Darwinists" and atheism was around long before Darwin. Plus, fundies do not have any other explaination for the origins of bio-diversity other than God...what's your point?

b)No. Altrusim and evolutionary psychology. Fail.

c)No. Killing members of your species and social group makes no sense for the survival of the species. And if your species dies off, so do you. Fail again.

That's a hatric of fail. Nice.

4/29/2008 10:16:24 AM

#481478

szena

Nice distortion of what Ruse said.

4/29/2008 10:28:35 AM

#481483

Princess Rot

Jesus +
(a) Fallacy, strawman.
+
(b) Strawman, uncited claim.
+
(c) Wild claim.

=

Typical fundie paranoia.

4/29/2008 10:32:06 AM

#481493

anevilmeme

So Richard what your saying is without belief in your sky pixie you'd go out and murder people? Geez you're screwed up.

4/29/2008 10:41:18 AM

#481590

Mister Spak

I think fundieism leads to killing people, in exactly the same sense in which christians say "atheism leads to killing people". Not always, not necessarily, but there is a clear causal link here.

My reasons are that

(a) christianism depends on, and hence leads to, Fundieism (fundies have no other explanation for the origins of biological diversity).

(b) Fundieism, as an account of the origins of man, casts doubt on our rational intuitions and thoughts (this was argued by Christianist Richard Kilgore).

(c) Anything that casts doubt on our rational intuitions and thoughts also casts doubt on the rational prohibition against killing people.

Fixed.

4/29/2008 12:49:10 PM

#481609

tmr

(a)Wrong. Citation, please.

(b) Wrong. Citation, please.

(c) Wrong. Citation, please.

4/29/2008 1:08:07 PM

#481621

Nirjuana

Nobody expects the Atheist Inquisition!

4/29/2008 1:20:07 PM

#481628

emau99

[(a) atheism depends on, and hence leads to, Darwinism (atheists have no other explanation for the origins of biological diversity).]

Incorrect. Athiesm has NOTHING to do with "Darwinism".

[(b) Darwinism, as an account of the origins of man, casts doubt on our moral intuitions and thoughts (this was argued by Darwinist Michael Ruse).]

Doubly incorrect. First, there is no such thing as "Darwinism." Secondly, the ToE is not an account of the origins of man.

[(c) Anything that casts doubt on our moral intuitions and thoughts also casts doubt on the moral prohibition against killing people.]

Incorrect--see above.

That's 3 out of 3 points incorrect. Score: 0.

4/29/2008 1:27:07 PM

#481651

JonnyTruant

Ooooooo... kaaayyyyy..?

4/29/2008 1:45:26 PM

#481652

PlushZombie

This is a fantastic perversion of logic. Great fucking work, Kilgore.

4/29/2008 1:47:15 PM

#481655

cyborgtroy

a) I guess you mean we have to believe in evolution. Not necessarily, but I think the vast majority of us do.

b) Oh well, he was wrong. Morals based on compassion, goodwill, and equality will work fine and have even evolved into our society.

c) Not really. Plus it's illegal.

4/29/2008 1:49:55 PM

#481695

Ambrielle

Did he really say that on Pharyngula? I'm not volunteering for cleaning up the aftermath.

4/29/2008 2:44:07 PM

#481709

Osiris

(a) False premise. Atheism has existed long before Darwin. And evolution and atheism are not interchangable. Christians accept evolution and some atheists don't.
(b) Maybe. Some. Sure
(c) Wrong.

4/29/2008 3:00:34 PM

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