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Quote# 40250

You can't be moral without God. Without God, there would be no morals. I could say that stealing is okay, while you despise it. This reminds me of an argument where an atheist tried to tell a Christian that it was wrong that men in the Bible who were not told otherwise would marry close relatives. The fact is, if you're an atheist, you can't believe in morals. Instead, you believe what you want to believe. So how can you judge others?

Reborn898, www.gametalk.com 60 Comments [6/1/2008 12:48:59 PM]
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aaa

Because i can.

6/1/2008 12:54:49 PM

Another Atheist

Wrong. So utterly and completely wrong. Our morality is founded on laws and held in place by those laws. Religion may have had a part in setting those laws originally, but now we no longer need your religion because the only useful part, the laws, have been taken out. Now, the law is secular and we obey it or we are judged by that law. A god isn't required to hold laws together, all that's needed is an idea that if these rules are broken, then the person who broke them will have to answer to a higher human power and face punishment. That's the basis of our system of laws now and we learn morals through fear of punishment, which is exactly what your god represents in morality: a fear of everlasting punishment for doing wrong. Therefore, humanity has replaced your idea of "sky daddy" in that respect.

6/1/2008 1:04:08 PM

Mayhem

Your god is more immoral than any atheist I've known.

6/1/2008 1:05:10 PM

John

Laws against stealing, murder, sexual crimes, etc. have been around in every culture regardless of its religion or lack of it since the start of recorded history. The idea that a person has to believe in God to support these laws is nonsense. It's more likely that the laws came first and a god was invented by man to help enforce them.

6/1/2008 1:10:38 PM

xander8

Because we know that incest creates retarded people. Much like you, actually.

6/1/2008 1:22:09 PM

Amanda

I don't know how people reach this conclusion. In my opinion, atheists are more moral because they do things because they believe it's the right thing to do, not because some guy in a book threatened to send them to hell if they did the opposite.

6/1/2008 1:22:16 PM

Sheik yer Bouti

Considering that the religions, includind christianity is completely made up, it is you that have no morals; just some made up rules to follow.

On the other hand; I, atheist use empathy (religious people cannot feel empathy) and by extension, reciprocity to help form my moral judgement.
I also use science for your exampe.

6/1/2008 1:34:48 PM

Katz

A Lesson in Morals

Situation: Should I perform an action?

Question: Will this action bring any kind of harm to someone?

If Yes, don't do it.

If No, consider it.

There. Morals without God.

6/1/2008 1:41:25 PM

Eden

Gods morals, lets see ;)

Gods moral say that it is O.K. to lie.
God himself does it to Adam and Eve (incorrectly telling them that they will die after consuming the fruit of knowledge or life [with the demonized snake being the entity telling Eve the truth]) and he also repeatedly rewards people who lie (Just look at Genesis, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who lie [with in case of Abraham, the nation Abraham lied to being punished a short time by god for falling for the lie, whereas Abraham {as well as Isaac and Jacob} get rewarded for their lies])

Or the morals of punishing kids for things their parents did (often recuring in the bible) and victims for the crime that was commited on them (for example female rape victims that get stoned if they are raped within a city and don´t cry loud enough)

Or do you mean the morals of constantly violating the 6th commandment (thou shalt not kill) sometimes even upon direct order from god (for exaple as punishment for witchcraft, cursing your parents, disagreeing with their leaders or working on Sabbath) who also likes to order women raped or people enslaved if they belong to an enemy of is chosen people

Or the morals of tampering with someones free will just to have an excuse to punish a whole nation, in order to show how mighty you are (as god did when he hardened the pharaohs heart just to have an excuse to punish the whole of egypt with the 7 plagues [which included the killing of all first borns, persons who had nothing to do with the actions of their pharaoh])

Somehow the bible (especially the old testament) isn´t really something I would base my moral values upon and this includes the actions of god himself as describd in the old testament ;)

6/1/2008 1:46:57 PM

Another Atheist

@Katz
The formula is good, but it falls to pieces in some situations. A revised version of the formula e.g.

Situation: Should I perform an action?

Question: Will this action bring any kind of harm to someone?

If Yes, Will inaction cause any kind of harm to me or one of my comrades on an equal or greater scale than harm caused to the someone mentioned in question?
If Yes, consider it
If No, don't do it

If No, consider it.

would be better

Morals without god, improved to include situations like involvement in warfare, kill or be killed etc.

6/1/2008 1:50:53 PM

TB Tabby

Who'se more moral: someone who says "I shouldn't do that because God will punish me," or someone who says, "I shouldn't do that, it's wrong?"

6/1/2008 1:58:40 PM

anevilmeme

Steaming pile of fail.

6/1/2008 2:18:36 PM

Ambrielle

'Morals' arose out of the rather primitive* realisation that a functional society (ie. no indiscriminate killing, theft etc.) is on the whole better for everyone. Gods were invented after the fact.

*not meant in the pejorative sense.

6/1/2008 2:37:27 PM

Jae

One word: Confucius!

6/1/2008 2:44:01 PM

Horsefeathers

"You can't be moral without God."

Sure I can. You may not agree with my morals but I'd abide by them thus making me moral.

"Without God, there would be no morals."

Then why is there widely varying morals between people of different times/countries/regions/etc? Doesn't god give everyone the same morals?

"I could say that stealing is okay, while you despise it."

Yes, you certainly could. I would personally think it was immoral (barring certain circumstances) but you would think it was perfectly moral, thus making you a moral person in your own eyes.

Look, here's the point: morality is, essentially, subjective except for certain heinous acts that nearly everyone deems "immoral" and even then you're bound to find a handful who don't agree with that.

"This reminds me of an argument where an atheist tried to tell a Christian that it was wrong that men in the Bible who were not told otherwise would marry close relatives. The fact is, if you're an atheist, you can't believe in morals. Instead, you believe what you want to believe. So how can you judge others?"

I judge others by my own standards. Same as you. You simply get your ideals from a musty, dusty two thousand year old pile of moral bankruptcy whereas I tend to base my morals on the Golden Rule. As long as you're not hurting someone else you can do any fucking thing you want as far as I'm concerned.

6/1/2008 2:49:50 PM

anonymous_troy

"You can't be moral without God"

I present myself as evidence. ding.

"Without God, there would be no morals."

I believe over time, morals would have evolved into society.

Of course I can believe in morals. After rationally considering the effects of my actions on the general welfare and on humanity, it's obvious what I should or should not do. I judge others the same way.

6/1/2008 2:49:52 PM

CalcSwamiS

"The fact is, if you're an atheist, you can't believe in morals. Instead, you believe what you want to believe. So how can you judge others?"

I like how he asserts that atheists are the only ones that believe what they want to believe, when in fact Christians do the same thing when they cherry pick from the Bible all the time. What is or is not moral in our society is determined by human beings; even if God were to hand down a perfect moral code to us directly, there would still be plenty of people waiting to pick it apart and only follow what they deemed necessary.

In other words, if you're going to claim the Bible is the perfect moral code of God, then you can't cherry pick and say that some parts are good while others are not. Otherwise, you're contradicting yourself.

I'm not sure I made my point perfectly, but eh.

6/1/2008 3:03:34 PM

freako104

So then why is it most of the moral people I knew were not with your god?

6/1/2008 3:09:12 PM

Sofia.

Okay, thanks for telling me what I can and can't believe. And here I was thinking it was okay for me to believe in right and wrong...

6/1/2008 3:41:44 PM

approximate

How can you be truly moral if all you're doing is following somebody else's orders out of fear.

6/1/2008 3:51:05 PM

moose

Considering the twisted fundie version of morality, I'd probably rather be considered immoral. Besides, what the hell kind of person are you when the only thing preventing you from being an ass is the idea of God punishing you?

6/1/2008 4:01:49 PM

Fanatic-Templar

You fail at morality.

6/1/2008 4:12:32 PM

Jezebel's Evil Sister

If you can't be moral without god, you are obviously not moral.

6/1/2008 4:34:57 PM

Lefty Link

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." -Albert Einstein

6/1/2008 4:38:22 PM

John

So how can you judge others?

How do Christians judge others?

"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." (Romans 2:1)

6/1/2008 4:41:49 PM
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