Daughter #fundie

Daughter #fundie rr-bb.com

[In response to a prayer]

Amen...

I just cheated and noticed one comment to my quoted post: "Did you know that Jesus is mentioned more times in the Koran than he is in the Bible?"

huh?

The entire Bible IS all about Jesus!!!

59 comments

old comment by

You atheists should learn more about the ones you are criticizing, lest you turn up looking more foolish than you already do. You accuse Christians of not reading their Bibles, and act like you know it better than they do?

"And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed, for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, showing by the Scriptures that the Christ was Jesus." Acts 18:27-28.

"And he said to them, 'O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?' And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself." Luke 24:25-27.

This isn't "fundie" teaching. This is plain Christian doctrine.

old comment by OT

Making claims that Jesus is mentioned in the Old Testament was just a way for the early church to try to lay claim that they were connected to the older Jewish religion. Older texts and textual analysis shows that the New Testament was written and rewritten to try to fit it to make the "prophecies" of the Old Testament come true in the new testament. And when you speak of "Christian doctrine" which Christian sect's doctrine are you talking about? Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or one of the other lesser of the more than 50,000 Christian sects known in the world today? Probably just your "True Christian" (TM) doctrine I suppose. So I guess if I were I Christian apologist, I'd be making every wild-assed excuse I could find to prove my mythology too, including trying to tie it to a much older religion and ignoring the simpler more likely explanations.

old comment by piehead

The Hebrew Scriptures are unique among those of the world’s religions in that they contain scores of prophecies about a predicted future Messiah. These prophecies extend over a period of 1,000 years and many are given in specific detail. The final prophecy was given 400 years before Christ was ever born. In our book, The Case for Jesus the Messiah, we discuss a dozen of these prophecies, in detail, proving that only Jesus Christ fulfills them, and therefore, that only He is the predicted Jewish Messiah1 (cf., John 5:46). For example, in the anguished imagery of King David’s prayers, Psalm 22 accurately describes a crucifixion yet this description is given hundreds of years before the method of execution by crucifixion was devised. No other Psalm fits the description of Christ’s crucifixion better than Psalm 22, explaining why it is the most frequently quoted Psalm by New Testament writers. Yet this Psalm was written 1000 years before Jesus was born. Jesus Himself quoted the first verse of this Psalm while on the cross. Whatever one thinks of this Psalm, no one can deny that it describes what happened to Jesus on the cross an entire millennium later: "they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing" (Psa. 22:16-18; cf. Matt. 27:35).

In Isaiah 9:6-7, the prophecy of the coming Messiah concerns a child to be born who will also be God and who will have an everlasting kingdom. In the Gospels, Jesus claimed that He was that incarnate God and that He would have an everlasting kingdom (Matt. 16:28; 26:64; Luke 22:30; John 6:38-42, 62; 8:42; 10:30, 36-38; 18:36; cf., 2 Pet. 1:11).

In Isaiah 53:4-12, the Messiah is prophesied to be crushed and pierced for our transgressions; that God will lay upon Him the iniquity of all mankind. In the gospels, Jesus also claims to fulfill this prophecy (Matt. 20:28; cf. 53:12). In fact, Jesus repeatedly claimed He was the predicted Messiah by continually claiming He was fulfilling Old Testament prophecies: "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me" (John 5:39; see also Matt. 26:24, 54, 56; Luke 24:25-27, 44).

In Micah 5:2, the Messiah is said to be eternal, the ruler over Israel and that He will be born in a very specific location, Bethlehem Ephrathah. No one denies that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem Ephrathah and none can logically deny that He claimed He was Israel’s King and the eternal one (John 5:18; 8:58; Mark 14:60-63).

In Daniel 9:24-27, written 500 years before Christ is born, the Messiah is prophesied to be killed at the exact time of Christ’s death.2

In Zechariah 12:10, also written 500 years before Christ, it is prophesied that Jehovah Himself will be pierced by the inhabitants of Jerusalem who will mourn over Him. The Hebrew word means pierced as with a spear, just as Jesus was pierced during His crucifixion (John 19:32, 35).

If we look at the list of prophecies we discuss in our book, we see that Jesus Christ fulfilled all of them. Remember, the following are predictions made hundreds of years before He was even born:

Genesis 3:15 Jesus defeated Satan but was wounded during the crucifixion.

Genesis 12, 17, 22 He was the literal descendant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in whom all the world was blessed.

Deuteronomy 18 He was the "prophet like Moses."

Psalm 22 He was mocked, insulted and crucified. His garments were gambled for and His bones were not broken.

Psalm 110 He was David’s Lord.

Isaiah 53 He was perfectly innocent and without sin, yet He atoned for the sin of the world. He was resurrected from the dead.

Jeremiah 23 Because He was God and "justified many," His proper name is "Jehovah our Righteousness."

Daniel 9 He arrived at the specific time given by the prophecy, 483 years after Artaxerxes’ decree to rebuild Jerusalem.

Micah 5 He was eternal, yet He was born in Bethlehem.

Zechariah 9 He was the King of Israel who brought salvation; He entered Jerusalem riding on a donkey.

Zechariah 12 He was Jehovah, He was pierced.

Malachi 3 John the Baptist prepared the way for Him as He suddenly came to His temple.

Had we space, there are dozens of other prophecies we could discuss that are just as specific.

(1) He would be born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14; see Matt. 1:23).

(2) He would live in Nazareth of Galilee (Isa. 9:1-2; see Matt. 2:23; 4:15).

(3) He would occasion the massacre of Bethlehem’s children (Jer. 31:15; see Matt. 2:18).

(4) His mission would include the Gentiles (Isa. 42:1-3, 6; see Matt. 12:18-21).

(5) His ministry would include physical relief (Isa. 61:1-2; see Luke 4:16-21).

(6) He would be the Shepherd struck with the sword, resulting in the sheep being scattered (Zech. 13:7; see Matt. 26:31, 56; Mark 14:27, 49-50).

(7) He would be betrayed by a friend for 30 pieces of silver (Zech. 11:12-13; see Matt. 27:9-10).

(8) He would be given vinegar and gall to drink (Psa. 69:21; see Matt. 27:34).

(9) He would be hated without a cause (Psa. 69:4; Isa. 49:7; John 7:48; John 15:25).

(10) He would be rejected by the rulers (Psa. 118:22; Matt. 21:42; John 7:48).

Who is the only Person who has fulfilled all of these prophecies and many more?3 Only Jesus Christ. There is no way to avoid this fact. Scholars Delitzsch and Gloag have rightly stated:

So far as we can determine, these prophecies refer to the Messiah only, and cannot be predicated of another. The ancient Jews admit the Messianic character of most of them; although the modern Jews, in consequence of their controversy with the Christians, have attempted to explain them away by applications which must appear to every candid reader to be unnatural... these and other predictions have received their accomplishment in Jesus of Nazareth,... the combination of prophecies is sufficient to prove that Jesus is the Messiah;...4

In fact, as we show in our book, the calculations of mathematical probability reveal these prophecies could only have been fulfilled in the manner they were through the power and omniscience of a sovereign God. The odds of any one man fulfilling just 48 of them are 1 in 10157 infinitely beyond the limits of probability.5

Remember, in John 4:25-26 and Mark 14:61-64, Jesus Himself clearly claimed He was the prophesied Messiah. In order to disprove this claim, one only needs to find a single prophecy (out of scores in the Old Testament) that proves Jesus was wrong. Because no one has yet done this and because Jesus filled all of the prophecies relating to His incarnation, and because He resurrected from the dead, no one can logically deny that He was and is the prophesied Jewish Messiah.

what anger I see here--praying for you to come to repentant faith in Jesus, Lord and Savior.
truly one day we will stand before Him.

old comment by piehead

The word "ALMAH" as you mentioned:

The identity of the mother of Immanuel in Isaiah 7:14 has been a subject of debate over the centuries: Was the prophet Isaiah speaking of a virgin conceiving or not? The Gospel of Matthew quotes Isaiah 7:14, linking Jesus' conception to the sign the prophet Isaiah had given centuries earlier. Those who believe the gospel account regard Isaiah 7:14 as a messianic passage fulfilled by Jesus. Others disagree. Did the prophet intend that word to mean "virgin" or merely "young maiden"? Are Christian interpreters reading too much into this verse? Zhava Glaser presents the case for you to decide for yourself:

The word almah is rareusually translated as "maiden" it appears only ten times in the Hebrew Scriptures, six1 of these in the plural and four2 in the singular.3 Some say the word almah is merely the feminine of elem, or "young man."4

In the few verses where almah appears, the word clearly denotes a young woman who is not married but is of marriageable age. Although almah does not implicitly denote virginity, it is never used in the Scriptures to describe a "young, presently married woman." It is important to remember that in the Bible, a young Jewish woman of marriageable age was presumed to be chaste.

The prophet could have chosen a different word had he wanted to describe Immanuel's mother as a virgin. Betulah is a more common way to refer to a woman who has never been with a man (both in biblical and modern Hebrew).

In the Hebrew Scriptures, there are two types of betulotthe true virgin, and the "betrothed virgin" (betulah m'orashah). In Deuteronomy 22, a betrothed virgin is referred to as a man's "wife" (ishah). The state of betrothal was just as serious and sacred as the married state5 and the difference between the two appears, in some instances, to be a mere formality. The word betulah, commonly understood as virgin, is still not precise.

Joel 1:8 presents another example of the word betulah in a context which does not convey the usual meaning of virginity: "Mourn like a virgin (betulah) in sackcloth, grieving for the husband of her youth."

Some commentators say this refers to a betrothed virgin, thus making the lamentation all the more poignant because the marriage had never been consummated. The use of ba'al (husband) in this verse, however, seems to imply the opposite. The word ba'al is never used in the Jewish Scriptures of the betrothed state, but only of a married man.

Therefore, even if the prophet Isaiah had used the word betulah, it could have been argued that he did not intend to say that this woman had never had sexual relations with a man.

A look at the Septuagint translation of almah by Semitics scholar Dr. Cyrus Gordon, provides additional insight on the matter:

The commonly held view that "virgin" is Christian, whereas "young woman" is Jewish is not quite true. The fact is that the Septuagint, which is the Jewish translation made in pre-Christian Alexandria, takes almah to mean "virgin" here. Accordingly, the New Testament follows Jewish interpretation in Isaiah 7:14. Therefore, the New Testament rendering of almah as "virgin" for Isaiah 7:14 rests on the older Jewish interpretation, which in turn is now borne out for precisely this annunciation formula by a text that is not only pre-Isaianic but is pre-Mosaic in the form that we now have it on a clay tablet.6
Jewish and Christian scholars would be hard pressed to deny that the Greek term parthenos and the Hebrew term almah may have been used interchangeably by those Jewish communities that adopted the Septuagint.

On the other hand, J. Gresham Machen, who has done a definitive study on this passage, asserts that the translation in the Septuagint of the Hebrew word almah as parthenos cannot be used to show a Jewish doctrine of the virgin birth, for one also finds the word parthenos used in the Septuagint to translate the word na'arah, which merely means "young girl."

For Machen, the very fact that the passage does not have a history of Jewish messianic interpretation and the very unlikelihood of this passage being interpreted messianically makes the New Testament account all the more credible. In other words, the gospel writer, Matthew, was not trying to fit Jesus' life into a traditional mold, but rather turned to Scripture to explain what had taken place in the event of the virgin birth.

One cannot assert that the prophet was speaking of a virgin technically on the basis of the word almah. Nor can a serious student lightly dismiss the word as having no possible reference to a miraculous conception.

old comment by OT

Mushmelon head, you can spout your apologetics all you want, but until you've studied all sides of the argument you know nothing, and your convoluted apologetics are much harder for rational people to accept than the simpler and more likely true explanations. The new testament authors wrote and re-wrote their books to answer the "prophecies" of the old testament. Different authors had different prophecies "fulfilled", the new testament can't even get it right with various conflicts about where Jesus was from, his father's lineage, how Judas died, etc., etc. When the Romans decided to force Christianity onto everyone, they shut-down over 2000 Christian sects and disposed of around 80 gospels. How do you know that the Roman government picked the right myths for you to follow?
You don't know your own history. You don't know what modern archeology says about your bible fables. You've never read or studied anything your preacher didn't pre-approve. You'll never really have any knowledge unless you examine all sides of the argument, but you won't do that because you're afraid to question. Beliefs that won't stand up to questioning aren't worth having. Enjoy your ignorance.

old comment by Berny

@Piehead
Unfortunately, you're trying to prove the Bible by using the Bible. As others have aptly pointed out, the same can be done using The Lord of the Rings or The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
The books of the Bible you claim go back to a thousand years before Jesus can only reliably be dated to roughly 500 years before his supposed birth. I say supposed since no reliable historical document of the period mentions anything about a Jesus of Nazareth (or any other name you wish to call him such as Yeshua ben Yoseph). The writers of the New Testament, and there were many, cherry-picked the prophecies their Messiah should fulfill and set out to tell their tales as such.
That isn't proof.

old comment by

@#698912

Acts and Luke are in the New Testament.

As has been said before, the NT was tailored to fit with the OT. There is proof of numerous revisions that show exactly this. Neither the OT or the NT has a reliable history (as far as confirming their "truth" is concerned, anyway) and the earliest accounts of a Yeshua of Nazareth do not crop up until about 30 years after his supposed death, none of which are reliable in any sense of the word.

@Piehead
Do you honestly not see the problem with using an unsubstantiated source to prove an unsubstantiated source in order to confirm the validity of the first? It's called circular reasoning and is a logical fallacy.

old comment by Michael

Piehead - this is for you....

The Christian story of Jesus is based or more accurately, copied, from pagan beliefs:

Horus of Egypt
The stories of Jesus and Horus are very similar, with Horus even contributing the name of Jesus Christ.
Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are one").
The legends of Horus go back thousands of years, and he shares the following in common with Jesus:

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.
Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist."
He had 12 disciples.
He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
He walked on water.
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys").
Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father."
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.

Mithra, Sungod of Persia
The story of Mithra precedes the Christian fable by at least 600 years.
The cult of Mithra was, shortly before the Christian era, "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times."
Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character:

Mithra was born on December 25th.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
He performed miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper"

Krishna of India

The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah are many.
Indeed, there are over 100 similarities between the Hindu and Christian saviors , and over 300 likenesses.
It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was "Christna," which reveals its relation to "Christ."
It should also be noted that, like the Jewish godman, many people have believed in a historical, carnalized Krishna.

Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One")
His father was a carpenter.
His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.
He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
He was of royal descent.
He was baptized in the River Ganges.
He worked miracles and wonders.
He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind.
Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.
"He lived poor and he loved the poor."
He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.
Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."
He is the second person of the Trinity, and proclaimed himself the "Resurrection" and the "way to the Father."
He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth.

Prometheus of Greece
The Greek god Prometheus has been claimed to have come from Egypt, but his drama took place in the Caucasus mountains.
Prometheus shares a number of striking similarities with the Christ character.

Prometheus descended from heaven as God incarnate as man, to save mankind.
He was crucified, suffered and rose from the dead.
He was called the Logos or Word.

...even your church fathers know it.

In his First Apology, Christian father Justin Martyr (c. 100-165) acknowledged the similarities between the older Pagan gods and religions and those of Christianity,
when he attempted to demonstrate, in the face of ridicule, that Christianity was no more ridiculous than the earlier myths:

"ANALOGIES TO THE HISTORY OF CHRIST. And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher,
was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.....

....early Church Father Tertullian (@ 160-220 C.E.), an "ex-Pagan" and Bishop of Carthage, ironically admits the true origins of the Christ story and of all other such godmen by stating in refutation of his critics,
"You say we worship the sun; so do you."
Interestingly, a previously strident believer and defender of the faith, Tertullian later renounced Christianity.

Daughter #fundie rr-bb.com

59 comments

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