Having stated your opinion, let's list off just a short sample of people, starting with those who disagree with you: George Washington, John Adams, John Jay, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Noah Webster, etc., etc. Now for those who agree with your belief that we need a "wholly secular state:" Adolf Hitler, V.I. Lenin, Josef Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, Kim Il-Sung, and Saloth Sar (better known as Pol Pot).
That's one heck of a like-minded group of comrades, eh David?
As for me, I throw my lot in with the first group. Some quotes from them:
"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
"The greatest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
-John Quincy Adams
"No power over the freedom of religion [is] delegated to the United States by the Constitution."
Brenton Bills, timesonline 11 Comments
[9/30/2008 11:38:08 PM]
Fundie Index: 5
Submitted By: worldsend
you missed out Darth Vader
11/17/2008 2:25:50 PM
...but the quote mine is sooooo much deeper.
11/17/2008 2:53:12 PM
Hitler (probably) didn't want a secular state, but since he said half the time that he was defending Christianity and the other half of the time that Christianity was an inferior Jewish replacement for the old Nordic religion, who really knows?
Um, Jefferson was making it clear that the US WASN'T officially affiliated with any religion.
I don't know about the others, but at least some of them were probably Christian - the US has been majority Christian since it was founded, but THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT A THEOCRACY.
11/17/2008 3:13:10 PM
All they have said was that the government has no stake in the ethics (or religion, in the absence of ethics) of its citizens.
The one deficiency that I can see is, they assumed that the regular citizen has the same high ethical standards as they had. This has proven to be a problem.
11/17/2008 3:31:42 PM
the irony in that jefferson quote being used to make the case you made... i hope thomas jefferson comes back from the dead and punches you in the mouth
3/13/2010 2:51:10 PM
and, while i'm at it, selection bias, much? winston churchhill, abe lincoln, and ronald reagan believed in a secular state. (lincoln skipped church on good friday to see a play the night he was shot) jim jones, david koresh, and the shah of iran believed in theocracy. also, stephen hawking is an atheist, john wayne gacy was a christian. do yousee what i did there?
3/13/2010 2:55:09 PM
He runs down a list of people who made great profits from slavery as opposed to a secular state, but fails to mention it. then he continues to run on with those slavers view on what morality ought to be.
1/21/2011 4:27:43 PM
That's very nice. Now, please show me in The Constitution where it says that the US is a Christian nation. Heck, I'll even accept a passage that mentions "God." Well?
Couldn't find one, huh? Now, how do you explain that? I expect that you will say that the founding fathers took it as read. However, I would note that some of those same Founding Fathers felt like The Constitution took too much as being read already. For that reason, they proposed and ratified ten amendments right off the back. We call them the bill of rights, and it doesn't say that the US is a Christian, or even a Godly nation either.
The evidence is quite clear Brenton: The Founding Fathers expected the US to be a secular nation. Time to revise your list.
1/21/2011 4:40:46 PM
" the US has been majority Christian since it was founded"
Unsustantiated shit like this doesn't help the historical reality. The churchs were heavily distrusted and mostly defanged by the time America was being founded. I see very little in early America or the settling of the west that confirms "most" people were religious at all.
The constitution went through with very little opposition despite it's strict removal of any church rule. Most of the founding fathers that were a little religious were also old testament followers, and not convinced of it and many made statements not kind of this "Christianity"
Again I have to mention the puritans and pilgrams are no way near the majority of your first settlers. Most couldn't read, had no regular church attendance and made little effort to indoctrinate their children. This is why religion went into schooling people so readily, so they could worm their religion into education
1/22/2011 7:57:45 AM
hmmmm not quite
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
you talkin about the same thomas jefferson?
1/22/2011 8:30:28 AM
"Having stated your opinion"
Opinions =/= facts. And speaking of facts...
"let's list off just a short sample of people, starting with those who disagree with you: George Washington, John Adams, John Jay, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Noah Webster, etc., etc.
'I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature'
'There is more need for lighthouses in our country than churches'
'But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg'
'Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear
'Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect'
'In no instance have... the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people'
Now for those who agree with your belief that we need a "wholly secular state:" Adolf Hitler, V.I. Lenin, Josef Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, Kim Il-Sung, and Saloth Sar (better known as Pol Pot).
That's one heck of a like-minded group of comrades, eh David?"
Indeed. And thus you'd better add to that list messrs Madison and Jefferson. Both Founding Fathers of the USA. Enjoy your paradox, Brenton. Speaking of Thomas, better not read his 'Jefferson Bible', if you know what's good for you.
1/22/2011 12:27:44 PM