charles, timesonline

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Quote# 48239

It pains me at the ignorance of citizens yearning for a secular state, assuming that the morality saught by people of faith might be faulty. Please read some historical books on how this country began... people of Faith in a trancendent creator, God. From the first pilgrims to the framers of the constitution, they were all rooted in the JudeoChristian way. Then look at secular communism states. Choose your way of life...you wouldn't last a year in north Korea.

charles, timesonline 12 Comments [9/30/2008 5:15:38 PM]
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#996685

katie5000

...you wouldn't last a year in north Korea.

Neither would you.

From the first pilgrims to the framers of the constitution, they were all rooted in the Judeo-Christian way.

At the very least, because it was European custom. The framers were all primarily Deists, which =/= fundamentalists. The Pilgrims/Puritans were, granted, a bit more religious.

It pains me at the ignorance of citizens yearning for a secular state, assuming that the morality saught by people of faith might be faulty.

What's faulty is that you seem to think that non-religious people don't have some inherent sense of right and wrong. It pains ME every time I hear a fundie spout off on how they want to turn the US into what is basically a Christian theocracy, or on how they want to put the non-religious in camps and/or exterminate them. I mean, what the fuck is that about.

7/30/2009 12:18:36 AM

#996698

Swedish Pagan

So, the only two options are either theocracy or dictatorship by a mad man? Doesn't sound like that much a difference, really, when you think about it.

I kind of like the "history" of the US in Bowling for Columbine. Doesn't make me want to swap my rather secular state for your rather God-fearing, not in a million years.

Moral, meaning inner rules on how to live life, is not an exclusively religious thing. We all have some guidelines. Some of the ones mentioned in the Bible are kind of nice, like "love thy neighbor as yourself" and "treat others as you want to be treated". But lots and lots of religious people are guilty of their sin of pride; they think they are better than others, and treat others with contempt and imagined superiority.
Is that really how they want to be treated?

7/30/2009 1:04:11 AM

#996907

Anon-e-moose

"you wouldn't last a year in north Korea"

Why not go to Pyongyang, stand before the Tower of the Juche Idea, or better still, in front of the statue of Kim Il-sung at the Mansudae Hill Grand Monument, tear up pictures of the two Kims, all the while shouting 'There is a Great Leader and Dear Leader greater than yours! They are God and Jesus!'. I'm sure your 'faith' would ensure the officials/security/military of such a secular state would leave you alone whilst doing so. Go ahead. What's stopping you?

You wouldn't last five seconds in North Korea.

7/30/2009 6:32:37 AM

#1322254

Quantum Mechanic

Never actually studied American History have you?

8/15/2011 7:19:17 AM

#1322258

J. James

Revisionist history. How droll.

There is a reason the founders desperately wanted a secular state. They weren't evangelicals, and they knew how much of a FUCKING ANNOYANCE it was to live under a state church.

Don't you love how Dominionists try to paint the founders as hardcore conservative evangelical theocracists that wanted a mob rule instead of a secular republic?

And they don't own no slaves! No siree!

8/15/2011 7:25:08 AM

#1322271

Anon2

assuming that the morality saught by people of faith might be faulty. Please read some historical books on how this country began [...] From the first pilgrims [...]

*Ahem* What was the reason the Pilgrim Fathers left Europe? Were they prosecuted by secular communist states? Or did they rather flee some ... other kind of prosecution?

Then look at secular communism states. Choose your way of life...you wouldn't last a year in north Korea.

You pathetic attempt of trying to associate "secular" with "communist" doesn't work. Nice try, but you failed.

Anyway, I live now for many, many years in a central european country which becomes more and more secular and where the churches are in constant decline, especially among the youth with now nearly 50% agnostic/atheistic. It is a very good life here.

8/15/2011 7:52:31 AM

#1322311

rw23

Some people who were born and grew up during the worst of the Cold War, who swallowed all the propaganda about the "evils of communism" and the existentialist threat to the USA, just don't seem to realise that it was all over by 1991. They don't have to worry about it any more.

Of course it was only ten years before some of them latched on to another existentialist threat instead, one that just like their own espouses a certain morality amongst people of faith...

8/15/2011 10:03:26 AM

#1568880

Quantum Mechanic

"Please read some historical books on how this country began."

You first.

7/27/2013 11:07:25 AM

#1569750

Canadiest

"the first pilgrims to the framers of the constitution, they were all rooted in the JudeoChristian way."

No, no they weren't. You're assuming that Puritans and Pilgrims were the majority of the first Americans, they weren't, nor were most early settlers all of a Christian faith, this is not represented by historical records. In America churchs spread as believers did, market, and weren't present in much of early America, they followed the economy.

"Then look at secular communism states. Choose your way of life...you wouldn't last a year in north Korea."

There are no "secular communism states" Communism is a rigid state resistant to individulism and demanding praise and worship, it's like a theocracy. Like North Korea.

7/30/2013 11:38:56 AM

#1569753

JohnTheAtheist

Yes, North Korea is over flowing with rationality.

7/30/2013 12:01:58 PM

#1569933

Dr. Shrinker

And I invite you to read a few historical books about the 30 years war. The Founding Fathers did, and they realized how potentially dangerous it was for a state to have a national religion. That is part of the reason why they ensured that the USA would have no official, national religion.

Now then, a state with no official religion would be called...what now? Here's a hint, it begins with an "s."

7/31/2013 6:51:53 AM

#2120711

If we read those books and we see the Puritans we see them hanging people on accusation of witchcraft. If we read about the Constitution and Bill of Rights we see it is secular. And history shows that people of faith are not always moral

12/9/2017 7:39:12 AM