Quote# 48574

[In regards to the University of Pittsburgh allowing transgender students to choose the dorm they want to live in.]

Diane Gramley:
"Student safety should be utmost in the minds of the University of Pittsburgh and other schools," ... "This policy change opens the door for sexual assault of female students and lawsuits from concerned parents and students."

Caleb H. Price:
"Universities are supposed to be about the pursuit of truth and reality," he said. "Yet the University of Pittsburgh has caved in to a politically correct dogma that dictates that gender is 'fluid' and can be changed. This is not the truth, nor is it based on reality. Fact is, no matter how many surgeries and hormonal therapies a person might undergo, biological sex cannot be changed."

Diane Gramley/ Caleb H. Price, Citizenlink.org (Focus on the Family) 49 Comments [10/1/2008 2:17:15 PM]
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Submitted By: Captain Janeway

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Culture of fear in action, and we need a "Chicken-littles say the darnest things!".

10/1/2008 2:23:28 PM


I have a couple friends who are MTF transsexuals, and I have used the ladies' room alongside them and stayed with both overnight. I have not feared or had reason to fear. Nor do I fear an MTF transsexual at my work. I'm also pretty sure that I've encountered MTF transsexuals in other areas of my life and not known it, which also doesn't scare me one little bit. I do, however, think it would be scary as hell to spend a night, or even more than a few minutes, with either Diane Gramley or Caleb H. Price.

10/1/2008 2:26:47 PM

Fact is, no matter how many surgeries and hormonal therapies a person might undergo, biological sex cannot be changed."

:goes to throw irony meter in freezer before it melts down:

There. Now, may I remind you, stupid fundies, that the reason that girls, for example, who know they are 'guys on the inside' can't change this is the very reason why sex change operations exist?!

10/1/2008 2:27:14 PM


Gender fluidity has finally been accepted by the mainstream and is now politically correct? Progress!

Oh wait.

10/1/2008 2:29:00 PM


What is Diane Gramley saying: that heterosexual men are going to go about the campus permanently disguised as women so they can live in the female dorms and go around raping the women? That's nuts.

biological sex cannot be changed

While the vast majority of us have a clearly defined sex, that's not true for a small minority of people. The determination of gender in the fetus is a complicated process that basically involves changing a girl (the default sex) into a boy. There is a whole cascade of hormones involved, and altering any one of them can have an effect. There are girls with Y chromosomes, people with two X's and a Y or an X and two Y's, girls born with penises, etc.

10/1/2008 2:35:52 PM


This kind of reminds me of the "Red Scare" in the 1950's. Except instead of secret communists, people are now worried about secret men.

How strange.

10/1/2008 2:38:59 PM

El Guapo

This is 2008. They still segregate students into male and female dormitories? I would like to see a study that shows that the incidence of student/student violence is any greater in a co-educational dorm than a single sex dorm (because I bet its not).

Safety issue my ass. This is some fundie-type nonsense, sho nuff.

10/1/2008 2:39:33 PM


""This policy change opens the door for sexual assault of female students and lawsuits from concerned parents and students.""

I think if anything it'll be almost entirely the latte and almost none of the former which in itself says something about people in general.

"Yet the University of Pittsburgh has caved in to a politically correct dogma that dictates that gender is 'fluid' and can be changed."

If I remember correctly, "gender" cannot be changed. One's gender extends beyond the physical and into the emotional/psychological which is why sex change operations require a year of psychological evaluation before they can proceed.

One's sex, on the other hand, is completely fluid with modern medical techniques.

"Fact is, no matter how many surgeries and hormonal therapies a person might undergo, biological sex cannot be changed."

You're not real clear about how sexual reassignment surgeries work, are you?

10/1/2008 2:40:06 PM


You still have seperate dorms for men and women?

Do they have seperate classes too?

10/1/2008 2:43:18 PM



10/1/2008 2:45:45 PM


@Horsefeathers: When he mentions gender fluidity, he refers to the concept that someone can want to appear male one day, female the next, and somewhere in between the day after that. It's about not stuffing yourself into the gender binary if you feel like you encompass all or most genders.

10/1/2008 2:46:02 PM


I have two transgender friends. I call them "him" or "her" respective to each person's wishes. It's just polite. I knew "him" as a woman first, so that was some getting used to and still will slip and use the female name he was born with, but heck, it happens. My point is, gender identity change really affects others not at all unless you knew the person before and have to learn to call them a new name and get used to a new look. Even then, BFD.

That being said; a college dorm? College is an asshole factory. I think safety should be a very real concern.

I could totally see a group of some drunk, aggressive double Y zipperheads doing their own version of Boys Don't Cry in a heartbeat. (edit to clarify: by this I mean corner, harm or even kill a FtM student in their dorm.)

I don't have a good answer or snappy comeback for this.

10/1/2008 3:02:14 PM

Bored One-time Poster

Because men will always sexually assault women as a result of being in the same room as them overnight.

10/1/2008 3:42:06 PM


Yeah, and what about the risk of sexual assault against transgender students? No one ever seems to care about the dangers WE face.

10/1/2008 4:04:10 PM

Mrs. Antichrist

I like how they all assume that penis + girl's dorm = rape, even if that penis has been surgically removed and the testis shaped into a pseudo-vagina. If this person lives as a girl, feels like a girl, dresses like a girl, looks like a girl, acts like a girl and identifies as a girl, is it really that difficult to show some respect and refer to her as a girl? Same goes for f2m transsexuals. Plus, if a post-op m2f individual is living in the boy's dorm, wouldn't they be at risk of sexual assault? Do you really think that they're going to want to have to shower with a bunch of men, share a room with a guy, etc.?

Gender isn't as simple as X vs Y. Other parts of our genetic code, cultural influences, the way we are raised, and so on all contribute.

If a person's quality of life is improved by going through sex re-assignment, what is the big issue? If it doesn't hurt you or anyone else in any way, who are you to tell them what they can and can't do with or to their own bodies? What gives you the right to demand that someone live their life in a certain way, or to demand that they be miserable, trapped in the wrong body, just because you can't understand what it's like to be uncomfortable with who or what you are? Do you honestly believe that your discomfort in seeing a man becoming a woman or a woman becoming a man is greater than the discomfort one might feel while trapped in a body that doesn't match how they feel on the inside? Why should they spend their entire lives being miserable just to avoid making you feel uncomfortable for a few minutes?

Although I am not transgendered, all it takes for me to be empathetic to these people's situation is a few moments of imagining how I'd feel if I suddenly woke up in a male body tomorrow. I am female, through-and-through, and that personality certainly wouldn't change if I suddenly had a penis. I'd be miserable if I was physically male. I can't say I know exactly how someone with a gender identity disorder feels, but I do understand enough to know that they have every right to do whatever they can to finally be the person they feel like on the inside. It's just too bad that people like Diane Gramley and Caleb H. Price are incapable of putting themselves into someone else's shoes.


10/1/2008 4:15:09 PM

Mister Spak

"Student safety should be utmost in the minds of the University of Pittsburgh and other schools,"

Then remove all the fudies because they tend to assault and batter the various types of homos.

10/1/2008 4:20:47 PM


Not a clue why it did a double post.

10/1/2008 4:36:33 PM


A major concern of universities is providing an environment which supports academics. I can see a problem with a biological male, even if they believe they are female, going into a dorm with females who don't have a clue of what is going on (or vice versa). The roommate of such a person may be in a bit of a pickle, so to speak. If the showers are open, there would also be problems for more conservatives. Most any argument for gender split dorms would apply to biological males being in females dorms or vice versa. Granted, these arguments may be greatly flawed, but they have kept dorms from being unisex, haven't they?

At the idea of a gender change, I do not see myself facing any great distress about waking up tomorrow as female. A bit weird, and a bit creepy as to how it happened, but I don't to any great extent identity my identity with being male. Personally, I think it would be interesting.

Thinking about it, the best result may be just to make unisex dorms. That would work at all but the Christian colleges. It would also work to keep out those who you seem to think shouldn't be in a college dorm.

10/1/2008 4:36:33 PM


MtF transpersons are not all gay. The threat of assault still seems plausible to me unless they've undergone the big snip. If I were female, I can't say I would be comfortable with having a male college roommate, no matter what he/she looks like.

10/1/2008 4:38:43 PM

Dan Onymous

I've seen women using men's toilets plenty of times and not once have I ever seen them rare any of the men in there.

10/1/2008 5:15:58 PM


Generally speaking, if it has a penis, it's male. If it does not have a penis, it is not male. That's the law. Look it up.

10/1/2008 5:21:21 PM

Princess Rot

*ahem* You mean "chromosomal sex can't be changed". Biologically, yes you can change it, with hormone therapies and surgery for the physical bits. At a chromosomal level, no. Nothing can change that. But that's only relative, some people are ambiguous at a genetic level even though for all intents and purposes they are male or female.

Fuckus up the Famblee fails again.

10/1/2008 5:33:17 PM

The L

Technically, an MTF is basically an infertile woman. She has the equipment now, it's just not hooked up to a functioning uterus. Yet infertile women who aren't trans aren't discriminated against.

Transsexuals are people too. Or should the concern be whether they're pre-op or post-op?

10/1/2008 5:53:19 PM


"Why should they spend their entire lives being miserable just to avoid making you feel uncomfortable for a few minutes? "


*the 'bible' in this case only refers to the handful of passages that can be twisted to support my bigotry, the rest of the book can fuck off.

10/1/2008 6:22:21 PM


I am confused. I am pretty sure that Pitt has had co-ed dorms for a looong while now. I think what they might be referring to is choosing co-ed rooms which is a relatively novel idea. My university has had co-ed rooms for several years now and guess what the incidence of any type of questionable behavior has not increased.

What is more interesting though is that on top of co-ed rooms my university has co-ed bathrooms. And that by itself is not that interesting if you don't couple it with the statistics of their usage. Turns out that co-ed bathrooms are predominantly used by female students. Most (not all though) male students avoid using them even if the male only bathroom is significantly more inconvenient to reach. My friend who is an RA has said that that actually is quite beneficial for the condition those co-ed bathrooms remain in - they are much cleaner than male only ones (I wonder why...) He and I have surmised that possibly the american teen male is afraid of the nude female! Or maybe they want to avoid encountering evidence of female physiology in the trash (fear of the vagina)? Or maybe the american males are just ashamed of their own bodies (couple that argument with beach male attire). I will post this in the forums as well to hopefully start a discussion.

10/1/2008 6:37:07 PM

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