[This is from a thread discussing Religion in general, but somewhere along the line, this fundie started arguing that Christianity is more valid that Wicca. Here's just one example of his arguments]
One more thing, just to beat the Inquisition topic to death before I leave it alone (as I keep coming back to it and we're all tired of it):
I was pondering this discussion today, and a quote by someone very wise came to me:
"History is just the pack of lies we all agree upon."
That's a very good summation in many ways. My addendum would be "the burning times is the pack of lies only the wiccans agree on."
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A fundy? On White Wolf ? Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the way it was when I was a fundy christian. Fantasy role-playing was not allowed. At all. Even christian version were seen to be simple distortions of satanic pleasure. Not to mention the fact he's a bigoted, idiotic asshole. Too bad White Wolf fantasy isn't based on reality. I'd love to see a Brujah beat this fucker into a pile of sludge.
Huh? Wicca is a religion made up in the last few decades or so. It wasn't even AROUND during the inquisition. Lies or not, what the hell does that have to do with neo-paganism?
Oh, and White Wolf? Like the RPG? D&D Chick Tract anyone?
This isn't far from the mark, except most wiccans who have read more than one book, or come from a lineaged tradition, know the "burning times" is bubkiss and factually wrong.
The mistake he makes is that saying ALL Wiccans believe the myth, where as it happens to be those who don't know any better or those who choose to remain ignorant in the face of evidence. Something I'm sure the OP can relate to.
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Not many were, and in the UK, at least, more than you'd think got a pardon. Course, lots were hanged though. I suppose technically I'd rather be hanged than burned, but at the end of it I'm still dead, so its not really much of an improvement :P
I say I'm Wiccan because it's easier than saying "I think we should take care of the earth and I like the idea of an Ancient Mother deity (Isis, etc.) rather than some bossy ass patriarchal BS." During the Inquisition pagans were everywhere. Gerald Gardner took liberty with ancient ways and stamped Wicca on it. I seriously doubt my country(USA) would have recognized this faith unless presented with some kind of basic tenets and/or dogma. I'm a Solitary and like it that way and could give a damn what anybody thinks. Well, it does bug me when they say we sacrifice and eat babies or drain virgins of their blood. What a bunch of crap. Christianity was built on a blood sacrifice.
Actually, Christianity is more valid than Wicca, only in the sense that we know the name working procedures of the one who made Wicca from whole cloth. There is, of course no connection between Wicca and any heretics or witches burned during the middle ages, except for Gardiner's attempt to appropriate their victim status.
The fact that people who were burned (and yes, it did happen, just not in England or America, so the Anglobots at least have something to be proud of) were village scapegoats rather than people our modern pagans would recognize, even if they did practice folkways, does not mean their deaths were not a tragedy or that they can't be recognized as a consequence of religion taking precedence over rational humanity. In short, even if you don't agree that people were actual witches, which they weren't, you can agree that witch hunts happened and that similar things should not happen again. What part of that is a "pack of lies"?
@Helena: I respect your opinion but could care less about validity. Your Jesus would give me 2 thumbs up. ftr, even Christians were burned. Look up Salem Witch trials, Crusades, Native Americans and slavery, yadayadayada. The Pagans I know could give a rat's arse about "Christianity is more valid than
Hell, just say "Facts are the pack of lies we all agree on." and free yourself from all accountability to objective reality. That way you can say anydamnthing and not get called on it you little weasel.
Even is the Salem/Inquisition/Whatever Christian insanity did predate wicca as we know it thwere's still teh satanic panic of the 1980's.
While it lacked literal burning of witches it did have Geraldo Rivera, which is only slightly better.
And all those people burned to death, hung drawn and quartered, drowned were all imaginary?
Wow, I'm on Earth? Ever been there?
... the myth that is being referred to is not that the inquisition and European witch burnings did not happen, but that those who were killed were practitioners of Wicca or some kind of Pagan survival. Historians know this is simply untrue, those who were killed were as Christian as those doing the killings. I could get into a whole discussion on the "witchcraft as a religious vs social crime", but I doubt anyone would care.
I hear citations are always good though.
Witches and Neighbors, by Robin Briggs, is an excellent source to start with.
The sort of nonsense that gets passed around in the more fluffbunny sectors of the neopagan community is a pack of lies. Namely that Squillions of people were executed by Church authorities, that any significant number of them were pagan believers of some sort, that there's any relationship between said persons' beliefs and the crap they read in some $ilver Ravenwolf book. To say nothing of how every third fluffbunny was supposedly burnt at the stake in a past life.
BTW, the link to the White Wolf forums (ah, teenage memories...) keeps moving to some .pdf ???
You know the Christianity is responsible for the destruction of countless libraries and inventions, and the deaths of many brilliant (for their time) minds, don't you? Who knows how far back we were set. Who knows what was lost. All in the name of your fictional god.
History is just the pack of lies we all agree upon.
Just like religion, except in that case you should forget the "we all agree upon" part.
The Burning Times happened. Besides, it's not likely that all they killed during the burning times were all Pagans, my guess is that some where Christians and some where accuse of being witches because something did not like so and so. You have to admit that, at least, it seemed like the perfect opportunity when that was happening, eh?
The witch hunts happened. You saying it's a pack of lies won't change that. And those hunts are still going on today, no thanks to some pastors, some of whom must make a tidy profit from "driving out witches" from children.
Wow a fundy trying to use postmodernism to cast doubt on the veracity of the actions of the Church.
Personally I don't care what the religious types do per se, I mean there are so many religious folks that by average you're going to have a few mass murderers with a sprinkling of nutjobs. What I'm more concerned about is that they do it in the name of a freakin lie! A god who isn't even real yet they pretend to serve!
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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