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Quote# 55197

You want proof for the existence of God, here are a few:

1. Israel - God said that they will always be a people once He brought them into existence and they have been. They are here today even though many atheists have tried to destroy them (Stalin as one example).

2. The over 300 Old Testament prophecies (some written 1500 years before His birth) of the first Advent of Jesus Christ. Could not be a coincidence because we do not have a number large enough to show the odds against all of them being fulfilled in One person.

3. The resurrection - yes the one with Christ Himself but also the one that I experienced. I was spiritually dead in my sins (a slave to sin) and God brought me to life (changed my life and set me free from slavery to sin).

Three real proofs, now go ahead and hit your knees in repentance (agree that God is right and you are wrong).

By the way God does not hear the prayers of non-Christians (with the exception of their first prayer of repentance).

Erik Brewer, Dangerous Intersection 122 Comments [12/31/2008 6:55:23 PM]
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Submitted By: King Crusader
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Canadiest

All you're doing is reasserting the samed failed argument and accusing me and others of not looking into it. The predictions of Daniel are unremarkable, any learned man of that time with his resources could have called it even closer.

You refuse substantiated history for Biblical guesswork, few were confused about who the powers were back then, it's not like you could bomb the crap outta them in a week back then.

Hey, I'll check back in and when I see a new argument I'll respond

Until the last three back from you, you got an A for effort. Your grammer, spelling and sentence structure are way above Fundie average, too bad you're a prophecy believing fundie

3/31/2011 1:14:42 PM

ErikBBrewer

@ Anon2

Do you think it is wrong to murder someone?

Do you think it is wrong to steal from others?

What about lying?

What about rape?

These are all sins and God gives the solution to all of them. No other religion can transform a person from the inside out.

You do not understand Christianity yet you still knock it. That says a lot about you. Hate on what you do not understand.

3/31/2011 1:14:59 PM

ErikBBrewer

@ Anon-e-moose

Instead of answering the direct question, you deflect. You are a classic buddy. You want others to answer your question yet you never seem to give an answer. What are you afraid of? Do those who burn their babies alive as a sacrifice to a false god, deserve to be punished for their action? Please answer the question.

3/31/2011 1:17:40 PM

ErikBBrewer

@ Anon-e-moose

Instead of answering the direct question, you deflect. You are a classic buddy. You want others to answer your question yet you never seem to give an answer. What are you afraid of? Do those who burn their babies alive as a sacrifice to a false god, deserve to be punished for their action? Please answer the question.

Let's see, Stalin (studied to be a priest but practiced atheistic communism), how many people did he have murdered? What about Mao? Good record for the atheists.

3/31/2011 1:18:12 PM

Anon2

Do you think it is wrong to murder someone?
Do you think it is wrong to steal from others?
What about lying?
What about rape?

These are all sins


No, YOU say that they are "sins".

I say that they are wrong actions. Thats a difference to "sin".

You do not understand Christianity yet you still knock it. That says a lot about you.

You assert that I don't "understand" Christianity. That says a lot about you.

Let me paraphrase a word from Ronald Reagan:

"Who is a Christian? Somebody who reads the bible.
Who is an Anti-christian? Somebody who understands the bible."

3/31/2011 1:20:27 PM

ErikBBrewer

"You do not understand anything about any other ethical systems, you still knock it. That says a lot about you. "

That is where you are wrong. I was an atheist before accepting Christ.

I have studied the religions of the world (Eastern and Western).

Sin = wrong actions. Again, you do not understand Christianity and you keep proving it.

3/31/2011 1:24:30 PM

ErikBBrewer

@ Anon-e-moose
I am so glad that you brought the quote from Hosea. I am sure you got that off of a website or out of a book somewhere and never bothered to check the context so see who was going to be doing the “murdering” and why. You attribute it to God out of your ignorance. Yet, you write with such pride (pride comes before the fall so let me deflate your balloon once again).

Hosea is a prophet sent by God to Israel, after they came out of Egypt and settled into the land of Canaan. God told them that if they began to live like the pagans who were there before them, then He would punish them (Israel) just like He punished the Canaanites. The people did not believe Him so they began to practice the same things that the pagans were doing (sexual immorality, child sacrifice, rape, incest, murder, etc). God sent prophet after prophet to warn them but they just ignored or killed the prophets. Then God raised up the Assyrians and sent them into Israel. They took the Northern 10 tribes captive and laid waste the land, taking the people into captivity (722 B.C). The Assyrians were the ones ripping the babies out of the womb, not God. God allowed it to happen but He was not the One doing it. You blame the wrong person. Plus, were the tribes of the North not to pay for the sins (rape, murder, incest, child sacrifice)? So, you are wrong in this area and I am sure in many other ones when dealing with the Bible, because, you do not study these passages in context but instead, run to site that tells you what to think. Do you hear the balloon of your pride deflating????

“Your 'God' aborted the first child born to David via Bathsheba.”

Here you go again, blaming God for man’s sins. God says that immorality has consequences and one of the consequences is death. The worst part is, that not only does the guilty suffer from his/her immorality, but also the innocent. A man with AIDS who rapes a woman, gives her AIDS too. Immorality effects both. David sinned and not only did he pay the price but he also spread his punishment throughout his family and society as a whole. You have been proven wrong again, get used to it.

You blame God for Pharaoh's actions. None of those plagues would have happened if Pharaoh would have listened to God in the first place. He is the guilty one, not God.

As far as the “Flood” goes, people had 120 years to repent and believe, yet they chose to mock (like you do) and they paid the price. Blame the women who would not believe God for the death of their babies, not God. Once again, you have been proven wrong. Do you put any thought into this stuff or just cut and paste from other wed sites?

As far as God appearing before you, He does not work on your time but you do work on His. One day you will be called to stand face to face with Him and give an account for your mockery. It will not be pretty and I want you to remember all of our convos when that happens.

3/31/2011 2:14:36 PM

The Duelist

"Extremely weak on your part."

You wish. I explained my logic very clearly; funny how you failed to respond to it.

"Have you ever heard of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes) Study up on him a bit and then we can talk."

So *one* Greek ruler who persecuted the Jews for a while counts as the Greeks in general trying to destroy them? Extraordinarily weak on your part. Besides, he didn't try to destroy them, he merely banned their religious rites.

"It is not only the fact that they survived, but it is the fact that God spoke about it..."

Ever look up the Native Americans? It's amazing that certain tribes even still exist at this point.

"Do some more homework. We know the names of the authors. Luke was a Greek doctor who was extremely well educated..."

I've already done my homework, thank you, and have probably done a hell of a lot more of it than you. For starters, please link to a historical website confirming your date for Luke; secondly, provide evidence that this was written by Luke. Parroting back BS from that hack McDowell does not count as evidence.
And BTW, there is zero evidence that John was written before 70 a.d.; scholars date to about 90 a.d.



3/31/2011 2:25:32 PM

The Duelist

Continued...

"500 people cannot have the same “vision” at the same time. It was an actual event."

Obviously, you have no idea how history works. Without independent corroboration, this event is a legend, nothing more. That's why intelligent, unbiased people reject the gospels as the frauds they are; all four of them were written by anonymous authors nearly a century after the fact and make extraordinary claims without evidence. According to the gospels, at the hour of jesus' death, there was a zombie outbreak at the local cemetery; yet no contemporary records confirm this. And you can bet that people would have recorded an event like that. Furthermore, the Resurrection in bunk because we do know the location of Jesus tomb and the writers of the gospel were not eye-witnesses. And then you have the omniscient narratives; it seems that jesus is constantly off alone praying and fasting, yet somehow, the writers saw what happened. The whole thing reads like low-quality fiction.

"Written by so many different people, it would impossible without one mistake, one contradiction."

The gospels were obviously tailored, Eric; only Christians are incapable of seeing this. If there are prophecies concerning a messiah of some kind, how easy is it to write about some guy who lived almost a hundred years ago and make it look like he fitted the bill? Eh? It's not exactly rocket-science.

3/31/2011 2:26:29 PM

ErikBBrewer

@ The Duelist

He tried to destroy their religion, which was actually worse than trying to destroy the nation. The religion kept them together even when they were in the diaspora.

3/31/2011 2:28:25 PM

ErikBBrewer

“Coincedence, nothing more” is not explained logic. Maybe you should try again.

“Ever look up the Native Americans? It's amazing that certain tribes even still exist at this point.”

But, is their existence a prophecy older than 3,000 years???

"Do some more homework. We know the names of the authors. Luke was a Greek doctor who was extremely well educated..."

So you want evidence and then set the limits (typical). The only evidence that you accept must go along with your thought (not very open to debate). The Bible has been proven to be historically correct.

Some “scholars” date John’s Gospel @ 90 (what are their leanings, liberal or conservative, what are there biases?) Not all “scholars” agree that it dates to 90 ad. Propaganda only states one side of an argument and allows no room for any debate.

“independent corroboration”
500 different people is pretty independent. Plus, there is an enemy (Saul) who stops his rant against Jesus and actually begins to promote Him (not hard to convince an enemy to do this).

“That's why intelligent, unbiased people reject the gospels as the frauds they are;”
By writing this, you prove your bias. There are no unbiased people, do not understand this?

You cannot tailor the Gospels to be that perfect. People always make mistakes, especially since they were copying by hand, yet all that is in the Gospel lines up with all the prophecies that were written in the Old T. (try to get that many people together and hand copy a book, tying up all the loose ends without one single mistake, keep in mind that if you do find one, you have to start the entire copying process over from the beginning).

don’t forget, the Bible was written over a 1,600 year period, by some 44 different people, in at least 3 different languages, on 3 different continents, yet it all flows together seamlessly, without one mistake or contradiction.

3/31/2011 2:35:17 PM

The Duelist

"He tried to destroy their religion, which was actually worse than trying to destroy the nation. The religion kept them together even when they were in the diaspora."

So? You worded it as if the Greeks had tried to exterminate the Jews as others have; but this is clearly NOT the case. Next time, use better phrasing.

3/31/2011 3:25:53 PM

The Duelist

'“Coincedence, nothing more” is not explained logic. Maybe you should try again."

That is not the sum of what I said. Do you think that by being deliberately obtuse, you're going to fool anyone but yourself into thinking this is all I wrote? There were a couple of sentences that came right after that one, Eric.

"But, is their existence a prophecy older than 3,000 years???"

Since I haven't performed a in-depth study into the native beliefs of over five hundred separate tribes, I don't know; this could be the case. But even if it was, it doesn't prove that their gods were protecting them from European expansion.

"So you want evidence and then set the limits (typical). The only evidence that you accept must go along with your thought (not very open to debate). The Bible has been proven to be historically correct."

That's a VERY shiny mirror there, Eric; you must have paid quite a lot for it. For starters, the limits I set for historical evidence are the same as set by anyone self-respecting person of intelligence. If your "historical" records can't even surpass the mythical aspects of the Iliad or the Odyssey, why should I give any more credence to your beliefs about a Jewish Cosmic Zombie than I would to Cyclops, Gods, and Titans? If I accepted your cult based on it's current amount of "evidence", I might as well accept that Achilles was invincible because his mother dipped him in the River Styx as an infant.

3/31/2011 3:33:22 PM

The Duelist

Continued...


"The Bible has been proven to be historically correct."

When? Where? How? By whom? How come there's no evidence for it? Where is the proof for the gospels? Eh?

"Some “scholars” date John’s Gospel @ 90 (what are their leanings, liberal or conservative, what are there biases?) Not all “scholars” agree that it dates to 90 ad. Propaganda only states one side of an argument and allows no room for any debate."

Shiny, shiny mirror. First off, it's not just "some", it's most; the only ones who date it back earlier are evangelicals, NOT historians. Evanges are concerned only with upholding their religious agendas, not with reporting the facts.

"500 different people is pretty independent. Plus, there is an enemy (Saul) who stops his rant against Jesus and actually begins to promote Him (not hard to convince an enemy to do this)."

Where are the records for these people? Are there any contemporary, impartial records that contain their accounts? The gospels are the only basis for this story, and they don't count because they were written decades later by anonymous authors. Do you even know what the term "independent corroboration" means? Educate yourself, Eric, before trying to debate something.

3/31/2011 3:39:41 PM

ErikBBrewer

Check it out (with an open mind) http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html

I know who is providing the info so do not attack the source, the arguments are what interest me.

3/31/2011 3:40:35 PM

The Duelist

Okay, this is the last one...

"
"You cannot tailor the Gospels to be that perfect. People always make mistakes, especially since they were copying by hand, yet all that is in the Gospel lines up with all the prophecies that were written in the Old T. (try to get that many people together and hand copy a book, tying up all the loose ends without one single mistake, keep in mind that if you do find one, you have to start the entire copying process over from the beginning)."

First off, as you yourself have admitted, the bible was compiled over 1,600 years by church councils; plenty of time to cover up flaws and rewrite certain embarrassing passages. Secondly, the bible is not seamless; several so-called prophecies are nothing more than vague passages in the OT that Christians interpret out of context to support their views. How many valid prophecies are there in the OT? I've only seen a few of them myself, and dozens of fakes; so where are the "hundreds"?

"don’t forget, the Bible was written over a 1,600 year period, by some 44 different people, in at least 3 different languages, on 3 different continents, yet it all flows together seamlessly, without one mistake or contradiction."

Lol, Irony. Try reading all four gospels simultaneously; they contradict each other on dozens of issues. We have two different accounts of the triumphant entry, different accounts of the Garden(which shouldn't be there in the first place since jesus was supposedly alone), and different accounts of his arrest, trial(where he was also alone), death, and even his last words.

3/31/2011 3:49:38 PM

The Duelist

Finally...

"Plus, there is an enemy (Saul) who stops his rant against Jesus and actually begins to promote Him (not hard to convince an enemy to do this)."

is there any evidence that Paul's "vision" was not a seizure? It has all the symptoms associated with it. And one conversion does not validate a religion; I'm sure that Islam has similar stories.

"By writing this, you prove your bias. There are no unbiased people, do not understand this?"

By writing this, you show your ignorance of context. I meant people without a religious agenda that compromises their intellectual honesty.

3/31/2011 3:50:11 PM

Professor M

Check it out (with an open mind) http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a008.html

I know who is providing the info so do not attack the source, the arguments are what interest me.


There aren't any arguments on that page; just a heap of unsupported factual claims. At first glance it looked like there might be links to the sources of the claims involved, which could at least be checked for validity in terms of archaeology; but the links turn out to be to the "definitions" section of the same page. So I'm sorry, but I can't really say anything about the "arguments" on that page -- there aren't any. Yes, they make grand, dramatic, and disappointingly vague claims, but even if sources were provided for all of them (and they turned out to be legitimate -- evangelists have a long and sordid history of manufacturing fake "facts"), all this would imply would be that oral histories are often based on past events rather than being invented wholesale.

3/31/2011 3:50:57 PM

The Duelist

Not to mention different accounts of the Resurrection...

3/31/2011 3:51:02 PM

ErikBBrewer

Also,
Have you read anything by Lee Strobel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel#Other_books)

Also, why do you reject Josh McDowell

What about JOSEPHUS-Jewish Historian?

What about TACITUS-Gentile Historian?

Suetonius
Phlegon
Etc.

3/31/2011 4:04:59 PM



"Also,
Have you read anything by Lee Strobel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel#Other_books)"

Yes, and his books are rubbish.

"Also, why do you reject Josh McDowell[?]"

Because he's an intellectually dishonest hack.

"What about JOSEPHUS-Jewish Historian?"

I don't reject him--where did that come from? Unless you're suggesting that he provides corroboration for the gospels, in which case you're wrong; Josephus briefly mentions Jesus in passing, and utters not one word about zombies, miracles, healings, virgin births, resurrections, or any other superstitious nonsense.

"What about TACITUS-Gentile Historian?"

See Josephus.

"Suetonius
Phlegon
Etc."

Same thing. None of them confirm the gospels in any way; they just record a new mystery cult founded by a man called "Jesus"(which was not an uncommon name of the time). The gospels are forgeries, pure, plain, and simple.

3/31/2011 6:01:52 PM

The Duelist

"Also,
Have you read anything by Lee Strobel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel#Other_books)"

Yes, and his books are rubbish.

"Also, why do you reject Josh McDowell[?]"

Because he's an intellectually dishonest hack.

"What about JOSEPHUS-Jewish Historian?"

I don't reject him--where did that come from? Unless you're suggesting that he provides corroboration for the gospels, in which case you're wrong; Josephus briefly mentions Jesus in passing, and utters not one word about zombies, miracles, healings, virgin births, resurrections, or any other superstitious nonsense.

"What about TACITUS-Gentile Historian?"

See Josephus.

"Suetonius
Phlegon
Etc."

Same thing. None of them confirm the gospels in any way; they just record a new mystery cult founded by a man called "Jesus"(which was not an uncommon name of the time). The gospels are forgeries, pure, plain, and simple.

3/31/2011 6:02:45 PM

ErikBBrewer

Aha, you just write off the proof that is before your eyes (I told you that you only accept "proof" that agreed with your argument)

3/31/2011 6:08:00 PM

The Duelist

"Aha, you just write off the proof that is before your eyes (I told you that you only accept "proof" that agreed with your argument)"

So because I won't accept your "the gospels are true because they say they are" argument, I won't accept evidence that doesn't agree with my argument? And what "proof" have I written off here? Oh, that's right--none.
Shin, shiny mirror, Eric; as I've already explained, your beliefs have no more evidence than the Iliad of the Koran. If I don't believe in Gods, satyrs, Titans, nymphs, dryads, hell-hounds, and flying horses, what makes you think I'm going to believe in the Jewish Cosmic Sky Zombie? Eh?

3/31/2011 7:03:42 PM

ErikBBrewer

"the gospels are true because they say they are"

I do not think that I ever wrote that. Anyway, there are outside sources (I mentioned them earlier) that speak of the man Jesus. So we have the Bible and outside sources, yet you will never be satisfied. Please read this article because during the 1st Cent, people were just like you. (http://erikbrewer.wordpress.com/2010/04/02/belief-signs-and-palm-sunday/)

3/31/2011 7:36:35 PM
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