ILJ1917 #fundie

ILJ1917 #fundie christianforums.com

I don't know much about Mithraism, but I do know that Christianity can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Below are basic "facts" that show this. I am sure the same can't be said for Mithraism or any other religion. Hope it helps!

1 – Proving the Existence of God
A. Humans Know Right from Wrong
1. If there was a power outside of the universe, the only way that we could expect it to show itself would be inside ourselves as an influence trying to get us to behave a certain way
2. This is an inherent moral law that directs our instincts
3. The difference between the moral law in different cultures and different times is minimal, so you can recognize the same moral law directing all of them
4. If humans evolved out of single-cell organisms, then they would not have this inherent moral law, which is the case with all other animals
5. Therefore, there must be somebody or something that gave them this sense of right and wrong
B. Uncaused Cause
1. Existence and non-existence cannot both be present
2. Existence is present, therefore non-existence, or nothingness, is not present
3. It is impossible for something to arise from nothing, therefore existence has always been present
4. In existence, there is always a cause for something to occur
5. Since existence has always been present, and causes are required in existence, we can conclude that something must have always been present (uncaused)
6. Based on prevailing scientific opinion, the universe began to exist (i.e. Big Bang Theory)
7. Since the universe began to exist, something that has always been present must have caused it to exist (created it)
i. The creator of the universe must be greater than the universe itself
ii. Based on the design of created things, the creator must have been intelligent (more intelligent than humans, which are the most intelligent creatures on earth)
iii. Based on the diversity of creation, the creator must have been creative
iv. The creator must be eternal, since existence has always been present
v. These are all characteristics of the Christian God

49 comments

old comment by POSW

"1. If there was a power outside of the universe, the only way that we could expect it to show itself would be inside ourselves as an influence trying to get us to behave a certain way."

You haven't proven this. Why should extrauniversal beings care about us? And why couldn't they screw with our universe in some other way?

"2. This is an inherent moral law that directs our instincts."

Eh?

"3. The difference between the moral law in different cultures and different times is minimal, so you can recognize the same moral law directing all of them."

Oh, now I see what you're getting at. It would have made a lot more sense had you put "there" instead of "this" as the first word of #2, but sense isn't your strong point.

"4. If humans evolved out of single-cell organisms, then they would not have this inherent moral law, which is the case with all other animals "

Why not? Why couldn't evolution have produced creatures with moral values? It probably helped our ancestors settle disputes, while the cavemen without morals killed each other off.

"5. Therefore, there must be somebody or something that gave them this sense of right and wrong "

Not until you fix those holes in your argument.

"B. Uncaused Cause
1. Existence and non-existence cannot both be present.
2. Existence is present, therefore non-existence, or nothingness, is not present"

How are you sure the universe exists? Maybe it's all a big lie, all five of your senses are playing tricks on you, and my reply to your "proof" is like everything else, your mind playing tricks on you. Hey, it's possible.

"3. It is impossible for something to arise from nothing, therefore existence has always been present
4. In existence, there is always a cause for something to occur
5. Since existence has always been present, and causes are required in existence, we can conclude that something must have always been present (uncaused)"

Without getting into different arguments in cosmology, let's just say that the "something" you're talking about doesn't have to be God.

"6. Based on prevailing scientific opinion, the universe began to exist (i.e. Big Bang Theory)
7. Since the universe began to exist, something that has always been present must have caused it to exist (created it)
i. The creator of the universe must be greater than the universe itself"

How do you know this? What do you mean by "greater"?

"ii. Based on the design of created things, the creator must have been intelligent (more intelligent than humans, which are the most intelligent creatures on earth)"

Intelligent design? Nice try, buddy, but unless God is the "natural selector" (theistic evolution), that doesn't work.

"iii. Based on the diversity of creation, the creator must have been creative
iv. The creator must be eternal, since existence has always been present
v. These are all characteristics of the Christian God"

Those are also characteristics of the God of Judaism, Allah, Brahman, the God of the Bahá'í faith, Vahiguru, etc., etc.

Fail.

old comment by OMGWTFBBQ

1 Proving the Existence of God

A. Humans Know Right from Wrong

1. If there was a power outside of the universe, the only way that we could expect it to show itself would be inside ourselves as an influence trying to get us to behave a certain way

How does that even make sense? How can something exist outside of existence and still influence it? Its a contradiction in terms. Your not off to a good start.

2. This is an inherent moral law that directs our instincts

Only if you count biological imperitive as a basis for morality. Otherwise we're as naturally moral as any other animal.

3. The difference between the moral law in different cultures and different times is minimal, so you can recognize the same moral law directing all of them

Gross oversimplification and historically baseless.

4. If humans evolved out of single-cell organisms, then they would not have this inherent moral law, which is the case with all other animals

Since there is no inherit moral law, this is false.

5. Therefore, there must be somebody or something that gave them this sense of right and wrong

ibid.,

B. Uncaused Cause
1. Existence and non-existence cannot both be present

Are you aware of the theory of anti mattter, or of the quantam mechanical development of the universe?

2. Existence is present, therefore non-existence, or nothingness, is not present

Uh huh, and Zen would be?

3. It is impossible for something to arise from nothing, therefore existence has always been present

Mind explaining why that is?

4. In existence, there is always a cause for something to occur

Wait, if existence has always existed, how could it be created?

5. Since existence has always been present, and causes are required in existence, we can conclude that something must have always been present (uncaused)

By your argument, existence has always existed.

6. Based on prevailing scientific opinion, the universe began to exist (i.e. Big Bang Theory)

Oddly enough I agree with this statement

7. Since the universe began to exist, something that has always been present must have caused it to exist (created it)

Your contradicting yourself again. How can something have always existed and yet was created?

i. The creator of the universe must be greater than the universe itself

This assumes there is a creator of the universe, you haven't established that yet.

ii. Based on the design of created things, the creator must have been intelligent (more intelligent than humans, which are the most intelligent creatures on earth)

No there are countless explanations as to why life developed the way it did without falling back on ID.

iii. Based on the diversity of creation, the creator must have been creative

Again, the creator has not been established in your argument, so this statement is moot. Also see above.

iv. The creator must be eternal, since existence has always been present

And back to your initial contradiction, if existence has always been eternal how was it created?

v. These are all characteristics of the Christian God

And contless other creator Gods. Christanity hasn't got a monopoly on monotheism.

old comment by Marc

You stole this from C.S. Lewis. And he did a better job than you.

A. Humans Know Right from Wrong

Not at birth they don't. Children need to be taught how to behave with other people. No one inherently knows that it's wrong to take things that don't belong to them (or even recognizes ownership). They don't inherently know that it's wrong to hit someone if you are displeased with them. All these things need to be learned.

Someone who knows more than I do can handle "B"

ii. Based on the design of created things, the creator must have been intelligent (more intelligent than humans, which are the most intelligent creatures on earth)

Actually, if you look at the design flaws inherent in most animals, it sort of argues against an intelligent designer. Also, who says humans are the most intelligent creatures on Earth? Certainly we're the most successful at changing our environment, but that doesn't mean we're the most intelligent.

v. These are all characteristics of the Christian God

No, they are all characteristics of a god. I'll even grant you that they are all characteristics of the Abrahamic god. However, even if all of these things were true (and I've already given you two examples of why they aren't), it wouldn't prove the existence of the Christian god.

old comment by Darwin's Lil' Girl

A
1. No, not really. You do, though, because you don't have enough imagination to think of how else he/she/it/they would show his/her/it/themselves.
2. Say that to murderers [/sarcasm]. You do have a point, though, but it's one that can be explained easily through our evolution.
3. Yes, see, we are the same species...
4. Wrong on two accounts. All social animals have some form of moral code - actually, humans are below other animals in this respect, because we are the only social species that has no instict stopping us from harming a fellow of our own species when they surrender. To explain the fault in your first assertion: those individuals who were cruel to fellow troop members were excluded, females wouldn't mate with them, and their genes wouldn't be passed on.
5. Already explained how it can happen naturally, dude. So, no. Sorry.
B
1. *Ahem* Where matter and energy end, there would be nothing. So, sorry, you're wrong.
2. *Ahem*...See point 1.
3. Yeah, see, everything has to start somewhere. That goes for your God, too.
4. Yeah, same for your God.
5. ...Er...no. See, here's the fault in your reasoning: In existence, there must be a cause. As you claim your God exists, his existence must also have a cause. That cause must also have had to exist, and so must also have a cause...You can see where I'm going with this.
6. Uhuh...Er, your Bible says that, too.
7. Same goes for your God. See above.
i. And so the creator of the creator must be greater, and so on and so forth, meaning your God is not omnipotent. Sorry.
ii. And so must the creator of the creator, etc...
iii. No, he's the most unimaginative creator I've ever known. Seriously - what kind of lack of imagination do you need to design a whale's flipper the same way you design a dog's leg???
iv. Your creator must have been created, and so must it's creator...But your Bible doesn't say that, so your God can't exist.
v. Yeah, but they contradict all logic. Sorry!

Just so you know - if you changed Christian to anything else, it would have worked for any other diety you wished to prove the existence of.

old comment by Osiris

1. If there was a power outside of the universe, the only way that we could expect it to show itself would be inside ourselves as an influence trying to get us to behave a certain way
Why? Why can't it come into our universe physically? Why does it have to possess people? Why does it care how we behave?

2. This is an inherent moral law that directs our instincts
It's called empathy.

3. The difference between the moral law in different cultures and different times is minimal, so you can recognize the same moral law directing all of them
Such as?

4. If humans evolved out of single-cell organisms, then they would not have this inherent moral law, which is the case with all other animals
No, you're wrong. Empathy is the basis of human morality. There may be some variations, but most laws come from the us treating others like how we would want to be treated. Here's the thing. Empathy has been demonstrated to exist within great apes, house pets, dolphins, and lab rats. Animals can feel empathy, and some even have their own very limited system of morality.

5. Therefore, there must be somebody or something that gave them this sense of right and wrong
Evolution. It's more beneficial for a species if every member of said species can work together. Empathy helps us understand each other, which leads to unity. Empathy is the basis of human morality, and empathy can very easily be demonstrated as an obvious survival trait and would be selected by natural selection. No unproven outside force is necessary.

1. Existence and non-existence cannot both be present
Until you get to the quantum level, and then everything becomes freaking circus.

2. Existence is present, therefore non-existence, or nothingness, is not present
Yes that is the definition of existence.

3. It is impossible for something to arise from nothing, therefore existence has always been present
I see where you're going with this. The Universe exists, and it can't come from nothing. Therefore it came from God, and God has always existed. I'm right am I.

4. In existence, there is always a cause for something to occur
You just said that I'm sure.

5. Since existence has always been present, and causes are required in existence, we can conclude that something must have always been present (uncaused)
Dammit! I knew it. Okay here, the Universe has always existed. It is the Alpha and the Omega. It may not have always existed in this current form, but the Universe has always existed in some kind of matter.

6. Based on prevailing scientific opinion, the universe began to exist (i.e. Big Bang Theory)
More like the Universe suddenly expanded. The Big Bang didn't create the Universe, it created all the space and matter around us. Before the Big Bang all that existed as a singularity.

7. Since the universe began to exist, something that has always been present must have caused it to exist (created it)
A singularity.

i. The creator of the universe must be greater than the universe itself
Why? If the Universe is not allowed to exist, and demands a creator, why is said creator more complex then the Universe, and why is it allowed to have always existed? Why can't the Universe just have always existed?

ii. Based on the design of created things, the creator must have been intelligent (more intelligent than humans, which are the most intelligent creatures on earth)
The design of things? What? Roving black holes, super novas, gama explosions. This Universe is fucked. I posit that if there was some being that created the Universe, it is a blind idiot, devoid of intelligence or will, and is not even aware that its creation exists.

iii. Based on the diversity of creation, the creator must have been creative
Or had a huge thing for spheres.

iv. The creator must be eternal, since existence has always been present
Why? Why can't the creator have made the Universe and then died?

v. These are all characteristics of the Christian God
They are also characteristics of other creator gods through out dozens of different cultures. You're going to have to do better.

old comment by anothga

My bullshit-meter is going off the scale.

1. If there was a power outside of the universe, the only way that we could expect it to show itself would be inside ourselves as an influence trying to get us to behave a certain way
In other words, you cannot prove God's existence? Why don't you just say so?

2. This is an inherent moral law that directs our instincts
Wrong.

4. If humans evolved out of single-cell organisms, then they would not have this inherent moral law, which is the case with all other animals
Double wrong. Why wouldn't they? Why do you think animals have no morals? Because they're not self-aware?

5. Therefore, there must be somebody or something that gave them this sense of right and wrong
You still need to prove that someone actually did.

iv. The creator must be eternal, since existence has always been present
No, he/she doesn't. I can create a D&D character class. Does that mean I'm eternal?