Stephen Ambrose had a superb observation about the Germans, particularly the SS. On many occasions, they could be just as gallant and chivalrous with their enemies as the Allies. But when the Vaterland required something ungallant or unchivalrous, the SS didn't have to think twice. So if that meant killing every bed ridden wounded man in an Allied field hospital between two Allied beaches in Normandy, that's what got done. You can attribute their "reasoning" to their blind loyalty to the state. I attribute it to their absence of conscience, something that is much easier for an atheist, because the atheist does not need to reconcile his conscience to an all knowing Creator. An atheist is his own god.
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"I attribute it to their absence of conscience, something that is much easier for an atheist, because the atheist does not need to reconcile his conscience to an all knowing Creator. An atheist is his own god. "
Alrighty, but what does that have to do with the Christian SS, following the orders of the Christian Hitler?
Godwin, you auto-lose.
I don't even fucking get this argument anymore. Tons of bad people get away with their actions all the time, with no 'divine judgment' whatsoever, and good people get stuck in shitty situations just as often, with no apparent 'divine help' to save them. From a logical point of view, there is no such thing as divine punishment or favor, only confirmation bias on the part of outside observers.
I thought he was going to make a point about how SS soldiers loyal to Hitler are like christians loyal to God (in that if God/Hitler tells them to do something, they'll do it without thinking), but no.
*facepalm*
blind obedience is like freethinking.... how?
why do those idiots always miss the part where blind obedience to a higher power, any higher power, makes it easier to commit atrocities? After all they were just following (God's/the Fuhrer's/the Government's) orders
"I attribute it to their absence of conscience, something that is much easier for an atheist"
You are not me. Don't pretend to be in my head.
"So if that meant killing every bed ridden wounded man in an Allied field hospital between two Allied beaches in Normandy"
I'm pretty sure that both sides did something like that.
"An atheist is his own god."
So by your own admission, we have to reconcile with ourselves. So your whole thing about having no conscioesness fails.
You can attribute their "reasoning" to their blind loyalty to the state. I attribute it to their absence of conscience, something that is much easier for an atheist, because the atheist does not need to reconcile his conscience to an all knowing Creator. An atheist is his own god.
There we go. I knew we had to be related to the Nazis somehow. Frankie, I find it almost incovceivable that you would compare a lack of theistic belief to the Holocaust. You are trivializing the near-genocide of the Jewish people, and frankly I find that kind of sub rosa anti-Semitism disgusting.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.
Adolf Hitler
hmmmmm SS where atheist eh....
no that old chestnut. hey fella three words for you fresh from the belt buckles of ALL German troops
GOTT MITT UNS
for you ( as you're a retard) that is German for "god with us"
the SS would not have allowed atheists into the german armed forces as hitler wanted rid of atheism as it was seen as being rebelious!!!!
As for the Nazis being chivilrous, you tell that to my granddad, he killed loads of the buggers, and held the wide belief that the only good german was a dead one, because they where "animals"
so in terms of historical fail this has to be a large biblical flood scale fail, with fresh cream, hundreds and thousands, AND a cherry on the top.
@ TheOutsider + atheist crusader:
"Gott mit uns" is a really weak argument, since this was used already way prior to the Nazis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns
Anyway, the Nazis were neither atheist nor christian. They tried to create their own little germanic religion.
The SS were gallant and chivalrous with their enemies? Citation definitely fucking needed.
Oh, and the point about Gott Mit Uns is not that the Nazis put it there, but that they didn't take it off.
How fucking backwards can you get? The SS lacked conscience precisely because they were blindly loyal to the state (and probably composed of people inclined to amorality or immorality to begin with and thus easier to make blindly loyal to said state, making the arrangement self-reinforcing via positive feedback); similarly, fundies are blindly loyal to what they imagine their god demands. You can't simultaneously obey everything you're told to do by authority, unquestioningly and without being provided justification, and claim to have a conscience. With no god to define "morality" for them, their own consciences are all atheists like us have available!
Oh, yeah, Godwin.
The SS lacked conscience precisely because they were blindly loyal to the state (and probably composed of people inclined to amorality or immorality to begin with and thus easier to make blindly loyal to said state, making the arrangement self-reinforcing via positive feedback); similarly, fundies are blindly loyal to what they imagine their god demands.
They were made up of the same cross-section of people as society at large, for the most part including Christians and
whatever the hell those other guys were who claimed to worship the gods from Norse mythology.
Most of them didn’t lack conscience. They either ignored it, assuming the state knew better, or it was warped to such a degree that they mistook evil for good.
A lot of people make this mistake, assuming the presence of a conscience provides a sort of immunity to that level of insane xenophobia.
It doesn’t.
So what you're saying is because we don't blindly follow the bible 'irony strike one' that we'll be less inclined to make good judgment based on conscience (irony strike 2)to make civil decisions on how to treat our fellow man like hating muslims, homos, and abortion doctors (irony strike three)?
I believe you are out sir
So all those "Christian Soldiers" over the centuries who have raped burned pillaged tortured and massacred, they have no conscience problems about the slaughter of innocents?
Most conscientious objectors to the Vietnam war were atheists most who went were Christians fighting godless communists.
Look how that turned out in the wash up of history.
What kind of shitty security did the Allies have, if Stormtroopers were wandering about in Allied field hospitals killing Allied soldiers?
Or do you just not know what the fuck your babbling on about?
@TheOutsider
I hope you do realize that the first belt buckle is for a fireman ?
Anyway, 'Got mitt uns" has been used by the german military since Prussian times.
And for what it's worth "God zij met ons" (may god be with us), the same kind of 'slogan', is on Dutch money till this date.
BTW the Germans generally reserved their war crimes for the Eastern Front.
And, lastly, one of the observations Ambrose made (in Band of Brothers), was that American paratroopers tended to like Germans best of all European people they came in contact with.
@ixolite--you get the A for the day in history. The SS was the kind of testing ground for the new "Germanic" religion the Nazis were creating. Babies of some SS men were baptized in the name of Germany and Hitler in a new ritual they created.
Calling Hitler "Christian" is the same kind of stretch as the OP calling Nazism "atheist". Neither is accurate.
1: The SS. were often gallant and chivalrous, but totally loyal to the state.
2: The SS. would blindly follow orders from their superiors.
3: An atheist has no orders to follow.
4: Therefore atheists are bad.
5: Because atheists are bad, loyal Christians must blindly follow orders from their God- even if they are ungallant and unchivalrous.
Did the SS dash babies heads against stones? Because you did when your god told you to. Christians have no conscience, because the christian is required to do whatever his god allegedly says, however gruesome it is. The atheist has to be aware of right and wrong but a christian doesn't need to concern himself with that. A christian just obeys his TV evangelist. Or the voices in his head.
Most of them didn’t lack conscience. They either ignored it, assuming the state knew better, or it was warped to such a degree that they mistook evil for good.
True - I wrote that post rather badly, and I'm well aware that there are many ways for a person with a functioning conscience to be induced to disregard it or rationalise their way out. In practical terms, though, the effect is the same - simply replace references to "lacking conscience" to "acting without conscience."
Hitler was not a Christian per se, he was definitely a theist, but not in a very mainstream sense, and even then, historians aren't 100% on his exact theological views. There's even an entire wiki dedicated to that.
But that has nothing to do with your pointless attack on atheism. The reason they committed those crimes was because they worshipped the government in power. It's ANY kind of blind unthinking worship that is dangerous, something atheism does not, and should not do.
An atheist is his own god.
No, but I can prove I exist and that I have done a lot more than what can be said about any god.
Yes the blind obediance of the SS is legendary, As is their religious devotion to the absurd idea that some god named God, chose the german race to be his own special people.
But an atheist still is not his (or her) own god.
Despite the comments of a few other here, Hitler professed to be Christian. And Germany in the 1930's was reputedly the most Christian nation in Europe. The Nazis deplored atheism, threw atheists in concentration camps, and killed them along with other "undesirables." And you may be sure that the SS harbored no atheists. Like the rest of the German armed forces, it was Christian.
Frank, you ignorant slut. The Nazis, at least the worst of them, believed they were doing "God's work".
And I, as an atheist, have to answer to a real-live being for my actions. That being is me. I'm also accountable to those I meet. Take my word for it, we have MUCH stricter standards than Buybullgod.
My thoughts as I was reading this:
Ok... ok... not bad... conjecture, but semi rational conjecture... Why did this even make the list-THERE IT IS!
I still only gave it a 4 though, compared to the stuff that normally pops up on this site he wasn't TOO crazy.
Yet another asshole theist telling the world what atheists are, think, believe, and want.
If you're not an atheist, how the fuck would you know this? And even if you were, you would only be able to say it's what YOUR perspective, not anyone else's. How would you know that any other atheists follow whatever crap you're saying? Are you saying you can read minds? That's the sign of the devil, isn't it?
Actually, I attribute their "reasoning" to ferocious discipline and would also point out, as others already have, that every side committed atrocities at one time or another. Such is war.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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