[Excerpt from a booklet explaining how owning slaves is biblically sound]
The abolitionists maintained that slave-owning was inherently immoral under any circumstance. But in this matter, the Christians who owned slaves in the South were on firm scriptural ground. May a Christian own slaves, even when this makes him a part of a larger pagan system which is not fully scriptural, or perhaps not scriptural at all? Provided he owns them in conformity to Christ’s laws for such situations, the Bible is clear that Christians may own slaves.
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Slavery, and all the goes with it (separation of family groups, forced sex, physical abuse, etc.) is morally wrong. If you and your Bible don't agree, then you have no business setting yourself on the high moral ground. It only shows the hypocrisy more clearly.
Let me get this straight - are you saying slavery is wrong unless the slaveholder is a Christian? And are you saying that because you think following the biblical instructions for owning slaves makes you a good slaveholder instead of a bad slaveholder?
I stand in awe of your incredible powers of justification.
The New Testament, as far as I can remember, does not permit Christians to own slaves. However, it does command (Christian) slaves to obey their masters.
Now, the Old Testament permits Jews to own slaves...
Yes. That's the whole point isn't it? As Steve and Doug demonstrate, the bible is incredibly immoral and is to be avoided at all costs as a guide for life. The whole foundation of Christianity is rotten to the core, for the bible contains nothing but fictitious tales of horror and superstition.
Alex
well, actually, biblical slavery was all right. but the slaves of 200 years ago were nothing like the biblical slaves, so they weren't on "firm scriptural ground".
In fairness, at least he's admitting this.
In shiteness - Steve, how can you not realise that if the bible defends a horror such as slavery, it might possibly maybe indicate something is wrong about the bible?
the Christians who owned slaves in the South were on firm scriptural ground.
Yes, we know. Sad, isn't it? And fundies claim we get our morals from the Bible.
1. Slavery is still despicable, regardless of what the Bible or any other book says about it. Move out of the Dark Ages and learn to think for yourself.
Hrm... been a while since I read that bit. I think the rules went something like:
1. Don't keep other Jews as slaves
BTW: To those who suggest the keeping of slaves might indicate the bible is bad, these are the sort of people who first think owning slaves is cool, and then manage to find passages to justify it, thereby making the bible good. If the bible didn't support it, they'd still be wanting to own slaves.
Provided he owns them in conformity to Christ’s laws for such situations, the Bible is clear that Christians may own slaves.
Thanks for pointing that out. I needed one more reason why the Bible is a pile of misogynistic Bronze Age bullshit.
And your bible says its ok to sell your daughter, or offer her to be gang banged by a rioting crowd to keep your guest safe, and you should be executed if you wear clothing made of mixed fibers, or plant two types of grain side by side, or if you cook something I don't like the smell of, I can kill you.
If you are going to use the bible as your excuse for bigotry, you have to use it ALL, not cherry pick.
I am so glad I don't have to rationalise this nonsense in order to feel that my worldview is consistent. Steve is being completely consistent with the belief that the Bible is the infallible word of God. In a sense he has balls for actually addressing the issue of slavery in the Bible and standing his ground, unlike those who simultaneously claim that the Bible is the infallible word of God and then do loop the loops to explain the passages that hold forth on slavery.
Fucking sick though - a real testament to the dangers of thinking that ANY information is infallible.
"Provided he owns them in conformity to Christ’s laws for such situations..."
since when did christ have guidlines on owning slaves? for fucks sake, these people would condone eating puppies if it were in their precious book. insanity at its finest, and it's truly frightening. and then they turn around and accuse us of being the amoral ones.
<i>If you are going to use the bible as your excuse for bigotry, you have to use it ALL, not cherry pick. </i>
And that's exactly what he's doing.
To be honest, I find it hard to even call this booklet 'fundie'. Wilkins and Wilson take a basic, uncontroversial Christian premise - that God defines what is good; that morality is defined by the Word of God (as revealed in the Bible) and that there is no higher mortal law beyond God's Word - and logically conclude that what the Bible permits cannot be immoral. Ancient Israel was a slave-owning society, with the laws regulating the custom brought down by Moses from the mountaintop; Saint Paul sent a runaway slave back to his Christian master, with instructions on how to treat him (see his Letter to Philemon); therefore, a Christian or a Jew is Biblically allowed to own slaves; therefore, slavery is not inherently immoral. QED.
The lesson to be drawn here is not that Wilkins and Wilson are fundies whose arguments are outside the bounds of rational, moderate Christianity. The lesson is that Christianity, by all sane and modern standards of morality, is completely screwed up.
What's this?! No eisegetic apologetics, desperately trying to explain that slavery doesn't really mean slavery?
*applauds the sickening honesty*
The Bible also says that if you're a good little victim, and never disobey the social hypocrites and control-freaks who take advantage of you all your life by making you believe that you have to conform to their exploitative system or else, then you get to go to happyland when you die, and you get to watch everyone who screwed you over get to be Satan's butt puppy forever. This is true whether society defines you as a slave or not.
If you believe in this system, that makes you either a mark (sap, sucker), or a user (leach).
The ruling class of clerics and bureaucrats have used the system of Holy Writ to justify any and all forms of coercion and inequality. Why should a justification for slavery surprise anyone? Stop the insanity. Stop believing insane shit because some asshole authority figure told you to. /rant
It saddens me deeply that one would have better luck communicating with a fundie by pissing on him than by telling him something like that.
Well, they´re absolutely correct that the bible allows slavery.
These are two of many reasons why we should be glad that we don´t live in a fundamentalist christian state, that bases its legislature on the laws written withiun the old testament.
And it's these Christians who say there would be no morals if there was no god.
Hey Stevie and Dougie, would you like to be owned by someone else, and be treated like property? Probably not. Then the Golden Rule, which most atheists follow, will apply here as well; treat others as you want to be treated.
"the Bible is clear that Christians may own slaves."
That's the OT, whice refers to Israelites owning slaves. Contradicted, much? But on the basis of that logic, I guess that means anyone can own slaves.
*holds two studded dog collars & leads, handcuffs & taser*
Come along, messrs. Wilkins & Wilson, there's a LOT of things you have to do in & around my house. And you know that laundry, shopping, cooking, cleaning & gardening won't do themselves!
See, at least this ones honest. He doesnt pretend that some of the shit that comes out of the bible is ok and some isnt. No matter how ridiculously immoral it is, it's in the bible, so it's all good.
Dio Fa wrote:
"The New Testament, as far as I can remember, does not permit Christians to own slaves. However, it does command (Christian) slaves to obey their masters." The NT doesn't explicitly condone slave ownership, but it doesn't prohibit it either. In fact, it contains this instruction to Christian slave owners:
"And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."
"...the Bible is clear that Christians may own slaves."
Aaaaand, you don't see a problem with actually owning another human being, even though 99% of the rest of the world thinks it's a horrible human rights violation and has outlawed the practice?
Well, to be honest, there was a kind of compromise in the system. Granted, Paul said that the slaves should obey their masters and all that BUT that was because a good number of Christians happened to be slaves and, at the time, it was both difficult to abolish and deeply ingrained in the Jew system. On the other hand, it was considered for a Christian INMORAL to own slaves, not that they kept that in mind but..............well, you got the picture.
TBF, if the Bible hadn't told the slaves to obey their masters, it wouldn't be around today.
I agree with the Abolitionists. Owning slaves is immoral, monstrous, and so far into the 'wrong' side of morality that it makes you blithering idiots to even 'think' about supporting it. I use the term think very loosely and generously.
Obviously the geniuses behind this booklet are actually either on some sort super potent drugs, or goddamned morons and bigots.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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