Libraries are a nice "end." I think libraries are great. But ends cannot be divorced from means. And the means of any public library is tax dollars -- dollars that were extorted under the principle of "Your money or your life." Pay your tax or go to jail. Nothing about them is free. Understand that while the driving force of the private sector is the creation of value, the driving force of libraries is the destruction of value. People are forced, if not at the point of a gun, then at the threat of the point of the gun, to pay for libraries whether or not they want to. And the difference between what they wanted to buy with their money and the library that they are forcibly stuck with is a destruction of value. Not only that, but the difference between the excellent private libraries that would probably exist if the market weren't flooded by inferior government libraries is a further loss of value.
Public libraries, as institutions that destroy value, destroy in some small way our ability to live our lives to the fullest. They represent houses of death and should be spat upon and cursed in the most creative language possible.
Public libraries are a scourge because they masquerade as a benevolent government program, a program that seemingly only the most extreme radical could oppose. Educate the public. Provide "free" books, movies, CDs, and Internet connections to anyone who wants or needs them. Provide reference material and disseminate knowledge to the public. Combat illiteracy. In short, public libraries supposedly better society and make the world a nicer place for everyone. And if public libraries are so great, then why not a public "this" or public "that," by extension?
Public libraries are at the heart of statism and the destruction of individual rights. They embody the premise that government can create value. But force cannot create. Wealth cannot be legislated. The truth is that aside from protecting individual rights, government can do nothing but destroy value at the point of the gun.
77 comments
It probably doesn't matter, Libertarians would bitch and moan if a single tax dollar went into the libraries.
Their standard claim, as shown in the qoute, is that the money was coerced from the people against said people's will, ignoring that they are an extreme minority and that most voters are in favor of libraries and other government works.
Jeff, I invite you to come to Norway, just so our public libraries, health care, broadcasting and schools can scare the shit out of you. You seem to be full of it...
How do these fucktards think we got libraries and pretty much every other government service through order of the Evil Lord Xenu?
A bunch of people said, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we all chipped in and got lots of books to share? Everybody up for that? Let's vote, or at least vote for candidates who are for or against the idea. Pro-library people win? OK, here we go." Oversimplified, I know, but essentially true: All this stuff was set up because people fucking asked for it, and got their neighbors to agree.
These clowns have no sense of history, or any real idea of how the world works, I tell ya ....
"And if public libraries are so great, then why not a public "this" or public "that," by extension? "
You mean things like public roads, public parks, public sidewalks, public schools, public snow removal (at least around here)?
Feel free to set up your own private, pay-for-use library to compete with the inferior public ones. As with all markets, if you provide a superior product, people will be willing to buy it.
Okay, the term public does not exactly always mean federal government backed or tax-payer backed.
Were you ever forced to get a book out of the public library? Then what is your true problem? You think that libraries would somehow get better if they were actually buisnesses competing for customers instead of what they are now?
Right, but you do realize there are such a thing as book stores? So if you don't want to get a book from a library, you can make yourself feel better by going to a bookstore and buying a book there.
There's already such a thing as "private libraries". They're called bookstores, and they charge for the books, as opposed to public libraries. See? So much whining about a non-issue, when the "solution" (and I use the term very loosely here) is right under your nose... But then you would complain that they shouldn't charge a price for their books, I guess...
Edit: Beaten by a highly skilled ninja named Kat!
You vote, don't you? That means you have just as much say in what your, and everyone elses, taxes pay for as anyone else. That's as fair as any society's yet managed to get and still have a functioning government.
These clowns have no sense of history, or any real idea of how the world works, I tell ya ....
What they really lack is a sense of society, of collective will or responsibility - it's simply them against everyone else on the planet (though they often make an exception for close family). Where it gets really insane is when the ultra-libertarians / anarchists say they could always choose to pool their resources and form a group of like-minded individuals in order to reap the benefits of specialisation and economy of scale, abiding by rules commonly accepted to be necessary to the functioning of the agreement, to achieve things a single individual could not possibly hope to achieve; but then simply cannot, or refuse to, grasp the notion that most modern democratic governments, ultimately, are an attempt to do exactly the same thing.
Your 'self' is an unimportant and miniscule blip in the cosmos, and yet at the same time it is important in an ethical and evolutionary sense. Your overbearing and inflated ego is suited to its solitary existence in the barren wastelands of what passes for your arid mind. At the same time, it is an inconsequential and gibbering pipsqueak amongst many billions of other egos.
To put it another way, you are like an unspeakably smelly and unpleasant fart blown in everyone's direction on the swirling winds of the internet.
So, Jeff, your ideal society is one where only people with money can be educated? Because without public institutions, that is how it will be. The rich get richer, the poor get nothing, and you sit on your balcony and comment about how nice everything is.
This is really getting to be a major form of mental illness in the US.
Hey, fucktard, you can also thank the evils of taxes and the oh, so incompetent government for bringing you the NIH (medical research), the postal service, your beloved military, the VA, the FDA, the national park sysytem, NASA, and the Social Security and Medicare that keep your parents and grandparents alive (barely, thanks to Republican cuts). Yeah, your idea of dismantling all of that would be a much better way to go.
Awww .......
Is little pookums pissed that his mommy and teachers taught him how to read?
Suck it up asshole, I'd rather my tax dollars went to libraries, healthcare, and fire fighting, rather than stupid Olympic parties for Campbell and his friends.
And S is right, as fucked up as this is, it's not really a conspiracy theory. Maybe it belongs in FSTDT.
"Roads are a nice "end." I think roads are great. But ends cannot be divorced from means. And the means of any public road is tax dollars -- dollars that were extorted under the principle of "Your money or your life." Pay your tax or go to jail. Nothing about them is free. Understand that while the driving force of the private sector is the creation of value, the driving force of roads is the destruction of value. People are forced, if not at the point of a gun, then at the threat of the point of the gun, to pay for roads whether or not they want to. And the difference between what they wanted to buy with their money and the road that they are forcibly stuck with is a destruction of value. Not only that, but the difference between the excellent private roads that would probably exist if the market weren't flooded by inferior government roads is a further loss of value."
Mhm.
And I suppose he wants private road systems, too? I want to see what he thinks of the value of paying a toll to a for-profit road every time he turned at an intersection, or had to deal with the cost of repairs from driving on co-op roads.
Privately held fire protection? I want to see him haggle over the cost of saving his home. How about police protection?
Public funding does add value to all our lives. You don't want to pay for it? Fine, go up north, build an igloo and live off the land. Nothing else is free.
Private libraries do exist, although they tend to be on private university campuses, specialized research institutions, or monasteries. I've never heard of a for-profit library. Most libraries, public or private, will allow non-members to come in and use their materials for free, if you want to check it out books you'd have to pay to be a member or meet some other requirement.
Also, comparing libraries to book stores is the same as comparing apples to oranges. Book stores exist for people to get specific books, while libraries act as archives of books. Chances are the top best seller will be heavily stocked in the local Barnes & Noble, but there would be waiting lists at the public library. However, if you're just interested in reading a book, but not a specific one, a library is a better bet. Likewise, if you're conducting research you'll rarely goto a book store unless there is a classic book that you absolutely need to have that is just so vital to your topic. Although if a book like that exists, chances are it's already in a library.
Oh, fer fuck's sake.
Public libraries are the best. thing. evar.
FREE BOOKS, that you borrow for three weeks, then return.
Interesting that the sort of idiots who call themselves economic "rationalists" employ hyperbole like "they (public libraries) represent houses of death."
As for excellent private libraries, these already exist and are untroubled by the presence of public libraries. These are called "bookshelves."
Public libraries are one of the things I'm more than happy to pay taxes for-mine's been a very good friend to me over the years. I love to read, but books are expensive, I love foreign films and documentaries, but they're hard to find, and also costly. When my computer crashes I can simply go there and use theirs. I'm fortunate to have an excellent library system in my community, so far I've been able to find almost every book I've wanted to read, and some of my all time favorite books have come from just browsing the shelves. Libraries have been a godsend in tough economic times (like now) when people can't afford any other entertainment, or need to use their resources for job hunting.
What do you want to bet this guy is just pissed because there is a waiting list for that NYT best seller he wants to check out?
FTR, I'm a librarian, in academia. I sooo hate these people. They bitch about the library not having the hours they want/books/whatever and then they vote for politicians who gut our budget. They whine about the cost of higher ed going up and then they vote for politicians who gut state funding for higher ed. Makeup your mind fuckers!
Ok, next time that a doctor can't heal you because information was not available to him, think about your beloved "rights" not to pay taxes, miser.
And I suppose police should be abolished and replaced with private security companies and/or mercenaries. Also, privatize fire departments. It'll be like the old days, where competing fire companies were fighting over the plug while the building burns to the ground. Awesome!
@AJComixII
Landauer is not a real anarchist. He is an 'anarchocapitalist' which is not real anarchy. Anarchy means "no rulers". In capitalism people have rulers, the bourgeoisie. True anarchy would mean the workers would run the workplace themselves. This would include security(self-defense against coercion), so criminals would still be stopped.
The state is necessary to uphold capitalist property rights. Without any state the workers would soon find that they could run their workplace and the capitalists could do nothing. Any 'anarchocapitalism' would lead to the private corporations recreating the state in some form even if they don't call it that.
Somalia isn't even anarchist. It has many hierarchies. There may not be a Somali state but warlords and gangsters do at a given point in time hold control over certain areas, a monopoly on the use of force for that area. The areas are constantly changing as they fight each other but they're there. They charge people "protection money" just like states tax people and just like states make good on the promise to protect(they don't want to lose their investment to other protection racketeers), and businesses in Somalia win over their favor with their money and the warlords and gangsters generally protect them. Saying Somalia is anarchist because it has no government is like saying Earth is anarchist because it has no government. Ironically the businessmen even though they're doing better than before the civil war want a government, because it would cost less to pay taxes to a government for protection than to pay warlords and gangsters for protection.
But he does have a point. People are threatened with force into giving up their money. This isn't materially different from the mafia collecting protection money. But as long as the state defends the status quo as far as property relations we'd be even worse off if there were no taxes or social programs.
As a responce towards AJComix.
You can have businesses in a stateless society. You can do business and have property rights too. All you have to do is get people to agree with you that you own it. Also you have to treat your workers fairly and fulfill the wishes of your workers or else they could leave, or they can leave and vice verca with you kicking them out. If you mean "true anarchy" yes I get your point on that. I am a supporter of "anarcho-capitalism" or just in my opionion a truelly capitalistic society.
P.S. This poster is a moron though, because most libraries are payed in donations not taxes (I.E. forced to pay something).
Wait what? Libraries destroy value? What the fuck? We're just supposed to accept that libraries destroy value, as if it's self evident! At least most tinfoilers like to back up their theories, give reasons as to why they beleve such crap, but this one gives no explaination at as to why "libraries destroy value".
Jeff, if you had made use of the public library in your area, you would have overcome this ignorance and stupidity that you exhibit.
Logic is, apparently, a stranger to you.
Review your third paragraph. Delete the last sentence, which is just dribble, and you yourself have debunked whatever point you were trying to make.
"And if public libraries are so great, then why not a public "this" or public "that," by extension? "
Why not ? public healthcare, Public schools, public roads, National parks, community wealth building a society rather than greedy individuals living in splendid isolation.
Public libraries are not destroying the fabric of society, selfish, greedy, self centered, mean spirited, narrow minded, people are.
Ask yourself this "Did the people who caused the global financial crisis go to public or private schools? and if tax payers money had not bailed out the banks and industry how many rich bastards would complain when they found their money gone and their stocks and bonds worthless ?"
People should be proud to pay taxes to build communities.
Every year they should publish a list of the top 10,000 richest people and the top 10,000 tax payers. if the 2 lists do not match up then questions should be asked !
Just because YOU can't, don't or won't read anything but internet drivel doesn't mean that public libraries don't benefit the public. I pay as much as anyone for streets though I don't drive much, but I understand that good streets benefit my society.
"Public libraries are a scourge because they masquerade as a benevolent government program, a program that seemingly only the most extreme radical could oppose."
So close. Indeed, I doubt that Ron Paul would be so stupid as to oppose public libraries, and at least would not advocate their destruction in public.
Public libraries take VERY little commitment on the part of the American public, in large part because they are funded by private donors. They are also fundamentally democratic, unlike yourself.
I highly doubt that this person would seriously forfeit his entire social contract simply because public libraries take up his tax dollars. If he would, then he can always go to Somalia, or seasteading:
http://www.alternet.org/politics/140253/seasteading%3A_libertarians_set_to_launch_a_(wet)_dream_of_%27freedom%27_in_international_waters/
Don't worry Jeff Landauer, your tax dollars are probably going towards some sort of massively destructive weapon in the military.
And you're bitching about a fucking library, give me a break, theres better shit to complain about.
The truth, Jeff, if there IS anything at stake for me, it's my status as an honest man, a birth right, I don't know, don't think, if I can fail to mention to you, thus & meanwhile absolutely welcome, please, to receive any of my further & most relevant labor information, since my Danish mother is a big compromise to me in that sense, so that I can of course tell & e.g. help us both etc. find out &, whoever's who, our best answers to, what's our just as good future, all about & forever to be, why & when. What I've meanwhile noticed, is for in- stance that there is something weird about your grammar, though it's morally spoken not your own fault, it's to myself a reminder & a repetition that I'll of course & always do well to feel honest with you, so that I can of course find & treat myself like a true opti-mist, i.e. to find out, who is who, why & when, greetings, arentved@in.com, there to be continued, my phone, Santiago, Chile: 00562 558
97 91.
It's funny how Libertarians and Neo-Cons get so bent out of shape when the government pays for useful services like libraries, but they have no problem with their taxpayer-funded, beloved military blowing people up on a regular basis. Their bullshit reasoning being that the military as 'protecting our freedoms', whatever the fuck that means.
Libertarians are the retarded cousins of anarchists.
Fly free, market, fly free, just as you were meant to be!
Everyone else, ignore the 100% probability of falling excrement from the male Bos primigenius.
Hi everyone.
I feel like a lot of the comments are taking these few paragraphs out of context.
The whole article is intended to be humorous. It's written for an audience of Objectivists and taking the example of one of the best things that government does and attacking it head on with fiery rhetoric like William Lloyd Garrison arguing against slavery. It's not really intended to convince anybody of anything who doesn't already heavily lean in the libertarian direction, and of course when I speak to a general audience, I tackle the worst things that government does, not the most benign.
And for the record, I'm not an anarchist or anarcho-capitalist. Government should exist, have a monopoly on force, and should consists of strong police, military, and courts.
"Here are a few examples of the best of San Francisco at its worst.
Finding books in the library is easy: There are logical, organized systems in place. Finding where the money to build libraries went that's hard. Last year, the Civil Grand Jury could not find we reiterate, could not find up-to-date budget numbers for the city's Branch Library Improvement Program. The numbers that were available aren't pretty: Voters approved a $106 million bond in 2000 to rebuild 19 libraries, and $28 million more was ponied up by the state and private donors. That money was spent without a coherent building plan being formulated between the Library Commission and Department of Public Works leading to such large cost overruns and long delays that the commission abandoned five of the projects. In 2007, the city went back to the voters, asking for another $50 million for libraries without publicizing that this would fund the five unfinished projects voters had already paid for. Voters approved it. After all, who doesn't like libraries?"
From: http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-12-16/news/the-worst-run-big-city-in-the-u-s/1
The private sector always has your best interest at heart. Look at how many libraries has been set up by the RIAA!
I don't understand how extreme libertarians have no faith in the government and absolute faith in private business. Where the heck does that come from?
I'm also amused by this:
"And if public libraries are so great, then why not a public "this" or public "that," by extension?"
He's saying that like it's a bad thing. Tip to debaters: don't try to make fun of your opponent by comparing them to something that a good amount of people are probably not going to find as ridiculous as you do. It just derails the argument.
Well, first off, most libraries are sponsored by private groups, and even if they weren't, well, the ends justifies the means.
This is anti-socialism insanity on steroids. I've never read something so chock-full of unreasonable paranoia. I'll bet this guy has a vendetta against public roads, police departments, and publicly funded prisons.
Like most libertarians, when confronted with the notion of contributing to the society on which he battens, Landauer reacts like a two-year-old asked to share his candy: "NOOOOOO! MIIIIIIINNNNNNNNE!! Mine mine mine mine MINE!"
Well then, let me explain in a way you would understand. To put in Libertarian Newspeak, the library-and the military, and everything else in society- operates on the assumption that you would like to pay for their services rather than go on without them, which, frankly, is completely impossible. So, instead, you "buy"(through taxes) a "voucher"(citizenship) that allows you unlimited access to these conveniently pre-provided services. They are also kind enough to provide you with these things called "rights"-- like the right not to be stabbed in the face, and the right to say what you like, and the right not to get tortured to death by Islamists, and the right to have your murderers brought to justice. Y'see, some very smart people have put a fair bit of thought into it, and as evidenced that all countries have a government, it's been pretty successful so far. So just go with it, you ungrateful fuckwit.
You ever been to a public library? Why?
I'll tell you why - cos you're a SOCIALIST!
~ Roy Zimmerman, "Socialist!"
Privatisation DOES NOT WORK (at least 99% of teh time...). This is A FACT.
@ Street Sharks Rule
This is a stat for Britain and not America, but, the answer is yes around 40 per cent af adults use libraries, (stat courtesy of Private Eye)
Anrkst
"But he does have a point. People are threatened with force into giving up their money. This isn't materially different from the mafia collecting protection money. But as long as the state defends the status quo as far as property relations we'd be even worse off if there were no taxes or social programs."
Bull-Fucking-Shit.
Have you ever heard of "the social contract"? It works both ways. You want to live in America, or any other country, you enjoy the services of the government. Police protection, roads, clean air and water, sometimes health care... you have to be willing to pay the government something in return. That's where taxes come in.
A true anarchist would never work. Ever. This is because in order to properly function in the "all people live and work in pure harmony" fashion that anarchist claim they aim towards, there would have to be no difference of opinion, especially in terms of politics. Difference of opinion leads to conflict and conflict leads to debate, division, and sometimes violence.
In essence, a functional Anarchist society would have to be no different than facism.
Oh, yes, things were so much better when the church controlled all knowledge. Anyone questioning or doubting, put them to death, silence any controversy, that's the way. Think of all the advancements in science, health care, technology, and individual rights that came from the dark ages...
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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