(discussing mandatory "end-of-life" care for seniors)
(Originally Posted by RuntheRace:
Thanks. I'll read some more when I get a chance.
From what I read of the bill you posted, it is not sinister. Advanced directive counselling is quite common in many health care organizations and allows you to state what kind of care/how agressive care if and when you cannot speak for yourself. I still plan on reading the section you recommended ReasonandHope to see what other "loopholes" are in there.)
Counseling may be normal in normal situations, but with Obamabots in charge?
I'm betting there will be a LOT of forgeries on the assisted suicide permission sheets.
44 comments
"Counseling may be normal in normal situations, but with Obamabots in charge?
I'm betting there will be a LOT of forgeries on the assisted suicide permission sheets."
I don't get it. Why do you goofy bastards think the President (or, apparently, anyone associated with the White House or government in general that isn't a raving conservative loony) wants to kill off some/most/all of the population?
What the fuck is wrong with you people?
Every time I've gone to the hospital in the last ten years, I've been asked if I had a "living will" and was given information about it. If you go to a lawyer to get a will made, they'll ask you the same thing. They're not trying to promote "assisted suicide"; they're trying to get to get people state in writing whether or not they want to be kept on life support for years and years. You can't say in a living will that you want to be helped to commit suicide. That's unenforceable.
What I find surprising (but relieving) is that we have RuntheRace, a reasonable, robustly sane person, on these RaptureReady forums that seem to generate half of the FSTDT quotes. Good for you!
As for MrMannn, he/she(?) is just another misguided soul who made the mistake of listening to deranged TV pundits and abandoning all logic. Not really worth arguing with, IMO.
More pearls of wis-dumb from MrMannn.
@Song:
Actually, from what I've seen myself there is, in fact, a sizeable cadre of sane folks on RR, but the loonies seem to do their best to bully them into silence.
Because we all know that 0bama wants to smother your grandmother with a pillow.
And I'm surprised that Runtherace hasn't gotten banned for saying that something under the Obama government isn't sinister.
The only reason this counselling is in the healthcare bill is to guarantee that said VOLUNTARY counselling is covered.
That is why it in there. Currently, this kind of conselling, while widely availabe is not covered by all insurance policies.
aaa: "Excuse me, but why all the fuss about Universal health care? I know how shitty the current system on the States is and it amazes me how silly the arguments against UHC are."
Because too many people believe everything they hear (this site is plenty of proof of that), and what they hear are the horror stories or outright lies. Doesn't matter if we hear these things disproportionately often (just like murders, rapes, kidnappings, etc.). Doesn't matter that so many people can't afford treatment they need and can't get help because their state's program is only for a certain group of people, e.g. single pregnant women and/or single women with kids. What really gets me is the people who are in need of treatment they can't afford or get any help with and they STILL fuss about not wanting universal health care.
I have jsut read the thread - they are some disturbed people over on RR.
I read the lsit that they call ObamacarePlan Details - Warning.
It lists some pretty hariraising and disturbing points. Then I get to the end and see who created this interpretaion of the Bill:
Mathew D. Staver*
Founder and Chairman Dean and Professor of Law
Liberty Counsel Liberty University School of Law
Offices in Florida, Virginia and the District of Columbia, Lynchburg, Virginia
I guess that they are carrying on in the Falwell Tradition - Lying for Jebus!
Don't get me wrong - I oppose the Health Reform bill as it currently stands myself - mainly on a funding aspect, cuts to existing programs (medicare), etc. As well as some of the negative stories from folks currently under the Canadian or UK health care system. Canadians coming into the US to get treat that they can't get or don't want to wait months for in Canada is a fact - long before Obamacare.
What I would like to see happen is the Feds take some of the money that would be spent on a UHC and give it to the states to beef up their Medicaid programs and also maybe open up Medicare to more individuals. I see no need to completely overhaul what we already have...but, that's just me.
I quit my job and benefits, including health care, to fight for reform for cheesebrains like Mr. Mannn, who is free to refuse it, but seems bent on a fantasy world where my fellow volunteers and I are sticking people with empty syringes.
And it's costing 50 million Americans coverage.
Thanks to the lies of Faux News and the stupidity of these idiots, if any bill does get passed, this sction which offers to pay the cost for anyone who CHOOSES to put a living will in place (it's NOT mandatory) will probably be taken out, and terminally ill people will have to continue paying a hundred bucks for an office visit if they want to talk to someone to find out what their options are.
Do these idiots not realize that the counseling is voluntaary? Obviously not. As it currently stands Doctors do not get paid through medicare (or medicaid) to discuss in detail issues such as living wills, advanced directives, power of attorney, etc. As a result, many elderly become injured, incapacitated, and unable to speak for themselves with NO legal documents anywhere stating what their wishes are. This would put an end to that. RR people and the right-wing are so fucking stupid it is sick.......Plus, they are a bit paranoid, "I'm betting there will be a LOT of forgeries on the assisted suicide sheets." ... WTF?????? There are no assisted suicide sheets for one. My gods what is wrong with these people?
Oh for fucks sakes, where death with dignity is legal, it involves three doctors, one of which is a psychiatrist.
I've watched my father go from Mr. Outdoors to a shell of a man who wants nothing more than to die. But instead of letting an 83 year old man who's crippled, blind, and can't breath die, they put him on antidepressants. I know if I was in that situation, I'd want to die.
Counseling may be normal in normal situations, but with Obamabots in charge?
What valid reasons do you have for thinking that anyone in the administration or the doctors who would be handling these matter is just champing at the bit to off every elderly patient walks throught the door? This is nothing more than conspiricy theorist ideological fear mongering. If this proposal was put forward by precious GOP then you would be falling over yourselves to endorse it. Just another example of the fact that most of you value right wing ideological purity in place of religious piety.
I'm betting there will be a LOT of forgeries on the assisted suicide permission sheets.
Seeing as how physician assisted suicide isn't even legal in all but two states and that there are federal laws (Though often uninforced in the aforementioned two states) also outlawing assisted suicide. So far there hasn't even been any real push to legalize assisted suicide nationwide, nor is any such thing included in any healthcare reform bill, so yes, I'll take your bet. Why would doctors, all of whom have taken the Hippocratic Oath to harm none, go around forging forms so they could kill their elderly patients? The whole idea is idiotic on it's face.
@Horsefeathers
You ask:
"Why do you goofy bastards think the President (or, apparently, anyone associated with the White House or government in general that isn't a raving conservative loony) wants to kill off some/most/all of the population?"
Persecution complex combined with projection.
Some people on here are expressing a certain amount of distrust of the UK's NHS. Yes, its slow at times and I have to admit, the standard of care in American hospitals is frankly better.
On the plus side, EVERYONE gets access to medical treatment, irrespective of insurance, wealth, or anything else. We get emergency care (and some of the best emergency care around) immediately without that unseemly business of checking our wallet first to make sure we can afford it. We can still buy health insurance and visit a private hospital when we get sick, so the choice is not gone.
All in all, I would rather the NHS than the American system. I would rather pay for other people to receive medical care, knowing that its there when I need it too. I would rather wait (its usually not a wait at all, actually, or if it is not as bad as the media makes it out to be - in my experience) for treatment than not receive it at all because I'm too poor.
NHS rant over. Continue mocking the fundie. :D
MrMannn is a leading douchebag, and enough about RuntheRace being a sane poster on RR. That is an oxymoron.
Think about it, how could one read and understand the legislation that is the health care bill and then in the next thought believe that the rapture is imminent? The human brain is truly amazing.
Also, why do these people think that the "Obamabots" will be less interested in the human condition then the souless corporations that are currently making these life and death situations everyday???
Assisted Suicide Permission Sheets? Does anyone even have those? Are they even legal? I'm guessing no, but fundies don't let reality stand in the way of a good story.
The sad part is that the lies and misinformation have pretty much won. The government appears to be all but abandoning the public option in favor of some "co-op" measure that I've heard nothing about up to this point but that I suspect is not the kind of reform we were looking for.
"I'm betting there will be a LOT of forgeries on the assisted suicide permission sheets."
Of course, your lot was betting that the Obama administration would shut down your precious site as soon as he got into power. Obviously that hasn't happened yet. I would say that you are being alarmist, but that word seems to have little meaning when applied to people who joyously regard every inconvenience as evidence that the world will end very shortly.
Well, I hope you're happy. The eviscerated bill that eventually passed did nothing but order everyone to buy medical insurance on pain of legal consequences. There are still no legal consequences for insurance companies who let people die because it's better for their bottom line.
And the final score:
Corporations 1
People 0
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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