GigaGuess

#1) A National Health identification card will be issued to all Americans.
Seriously? Here in Alberta we have Health Care cards. It's no big deal. And anyways, I'd think you guys would be happy for anything to keep the dirty foreigners from cashing in off of you, wouldn't you?

#2) You can keep your current doctor IF the government medical boards allow it.
Something smells like bullshit here...why on Earth would they want to take a doctor that has a pre-existing relationship with you, and a first-hand knowledge of your medical records?

#3) You can keep your current insurance IF your insurance company does not go out of business because they can't compete with the new government-backed alternative.
Awww...so the suits will have to fight for their piece of the pie, rather than gouging for a service you'll have to pull teeth to get them to provide. The poor, poor things. Really, my heart is breaking.

#4) Virtually everywhere you find nationalized health care around the world, you find very substantial health care rationing. It will be the same under Obamacare.
Rationing, as opposed to giving everything to the wealthy, and telling the poor to die on the streets? Yeah, that's a much better system. Oh, and I live in Canada. Any "rationing" we have is negligible at best.

#5) Just like in the U.K. and Canada, government bureaucrats will decide who gets care and who doesn't, and therefore they will often decide who lives and who dies.
As opposed to your HMO doing the exact. Same. Thing? Hell, at least with universal health care, your odds are better as it's a universal right to health as opposed to health, assuming it doesn't cut too hard into the profit margins.

#6) If the government does allow you to get care, in order to control costs government bureaucrats (and not your doctor) will decide what treatment you will get for your condition. If they decide the treatment you need is not "cost-efficient" then you are sore out of luck.
Again, your HMO providers do the exact same thing right now! Hell, with government intervention, such a thing will likely be ALLEVIATED.

#7) The bureaucracy required to run Obamacare will be a nightmare of unprecednted magnitude and it will quickly send federal deficits into the stratosphere.
Please. NO one can run up a tab quite like Bush did over his 8 year run. And I assure you, while we waver between deficit and breaking even, I do not believe have any sort of out-of-control debt here in Canada, and if we do, I seriously doubt health care is the cause.

#8) Obamacare will FORCE Americans to get health insurance. If you do not get health insurance you will be subjected to extremely heavy fines.
And ten bucks says there will be a government subsidization for those who cannot afford it. Provided, of course, it's not just a gross misrepresentation of something in the first place.

#9) It has been confirmed that elective abortion will be covered for all Americans. Because this is what health care is all about now - eugenics.
Aw, pookie...here's the thing. Eugenics is involuntary. Abortion is elective. A doctor cannot force a woman to abort...he can insist, which is generally if there are serious extenuating circumstances (Read: Mom is gonna die from the pregnancy) but even then, he has no right to FORCE the abortion on her. If the doctor does not have that power, Eugenics does not happen. So stop screeching about how the sky is falling, and buck up. Universal Health Care is provided in a great number of other countries, and most have a better quality of life than you do. So perhaps, just perhaps, they're onto something, and ensuring health for everyone, and not just the wealthy, is a good thing.

8/23/2009 8:45:13 AM

Doubting Thomas

I think it's funny how the right wing tinfoil hat society are so paranoid of a national ID card of any kind... and yet they probably have a Social Security card in their wallets.

8/23/2009 8:48:13 AM

Haseen

The Sickening Facts About Obamacare

#1) A National Health identification card will be issued to all Americans.
[even if it is true, so what?]

#2) You can keep your current doctor IF the government medical boards allow it.
[why woudn't they?]

#3) You can keep your current insurance IF your insurance company does not go out of business because they can't compete with the new government-backed alternative.
[Oh, the horrors! Ending up with a better plan!]

#4) Virtually everywhere you find nationalized health care around the world, you find very substantial health care rationing. It will be the same under Obamacare.
[and having your care denied because it threatens corporate profit is better... why?]

#5) Just like in the U.K. and Canada, government bureaucrats will decide who gets care and who doesn't, and therefore they will often decide who lives and who dies.
[I'm sure a profit-motivated corporate board will do a much better job killing you]

#6) If the government does allow you to get care, in order to control costs government bureaucrats (and not your doctor) will decide what treatment you will get for your condition. If they decide the treatment you need is not "cost-efficient" then you are sore out of luck.
[Kind of like how health insurance corps will yoink your coverage as soon as costs become higher than premiums. Except the government doesn't have a direct profit motive.]

#7) The bureaucracy required to run Obamacare will be a nightmare of unprecednted magnitude and it will quickly send federal deficits into the stratosphere.
[Like a certain war that was justified by make-believe WMDs? Oh, but government health care will provide an actual service better than what we're currently getting.]

#8) Obamacare will FORCE Americans to get health insurance. If you do not get health insurance you will be subjected to extremely heavy fines.
[It's almost like they don't want people to wait till they get sick to get coverage.]

#9) It has been confirmed that elective abortion will be covered for all Americans. Because this is what health care is all about now - eugenics.
[Choice has always been associated with eradicating inferior specimans. Oh wait, it hasn't.]

8/23/2009 9:25:58 AM

Sisyphus

Where do they get this rationing idea from? I live in Canada, work in the health care field, and have never seen or heard of anyone being turned away for anything because of rationing.

I think these guys suffer from a case of "I'm all right Jack, so piss on you" syndrome.

8/23/2009 10:17:18 AM

solomongrundy

The U.S. is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system...the United States ranks last in the quality of health care among developed countries... The World Health Organization in 2000, ranked the US health care system 37th in overall performance and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study)...The US lags other wealthy nations in such measures as infant mortality and life expectancy, which are among the most reliable international comparative statistics

And all this despite spending twice (per capita) on health-care than any other developed country.

In other words the insurance companies are scamming US citizens left, right and centre and you're begging for more of it.

Incredible.

8/23/2009 10:51:47 AM

mika

1) we all got one but this is Germany

8/23/2009 11:33:41 AM

Eimiilove

The Sickening Facts About Rapture Ready Members

#1) They believe if they put things in list form, this makes them automatically true.

#2) They know nothing of Government policy yet insist upon commenting on it.

#3) They know nothing of business practices nor of how business competition works, yet (again) they insist upon commenting on it.

#4) Members of Rapture Ready have never been outside of the US.

#5) They believe everything that comes out of Sarah Palin's mouth unequivocally.

#6) See point 2.

#7) They think that Obama will be worse for the national deficit than George W. Bush was.

#8) They are opposed to things that SHOULD be allowed/happen. See Same Sex Marriage for details.

#9) They think that Barack Obama will force them to have abortions. They might also believe that he eats babies but we haven't been able to confirm this.

=] I can make lists tooooo.

8/23/2009 11:42:06 AM

GigaGuess

@solomongrundy

Funny, isn't it? They are getting screwed left right and center, and are fighting tooth and nail to keep the right to get fucked over, all out of the desperate fear of TEH COMMIEZ AN TEH SOSHULIZUHM!

Not to mention, the moment you mention government involvement, they scream blue murder...right until they see an opportunity to legislate their morality. Then the government must act, and anything less than Big Brother involvement is unsatisfactory.

8/23/2009 12:18:00 PM

Old Viking

"I know nothing about this subject, so listen carefully."

8/23/2009 12:26:43 PM

n

Re: points 5 & 6
The Bureaucracy you're referring to was introduced into the U.K NHS in the tate 1980's, as a unanticipated result of Thatcher's "Free Market" reforms...
Originally intended to reduce costs, within the NHS, by introducing a element of free market competition, between suppliers, it instead introduced a extra layer of bureaucracy which nullified said savings...
Said "Bureaucrats" are not employed by the Government, but rather recruited by the Health Authorities/Healthcare Trusts directly, (Usually by Wanted ad's in various medical & other publications, such as The Guardian's Society section, published on Wendesday's).
The £25,000 for cancer care, mentioned in a certain U.S anti-Obama ad, was for a anti-cancer drug not currently used by the NHS (It was at the time classified as "experimental" by NICE, the U.K drugs licensing agency), & if approved, would have resulted in the the Trust involved, "going into the red", budgetwise...

8/23/2009 1:46:43 PM

Lainey

Erm, government bureaucrats don't decide who gets care and who doesn't in Canada. They also don't decide who lives and who dies. They also don't decide what treatment you'll get for your condition.

Also, "sore out of luck?" You spend that much time spouting lies, and then take the trouble not to swear? Why?

Tsk. Such ignorance.

8/23/2009 2:54:05 PM

Ack, messed up... see below message.

8/23/2009 3:05:17 PM

Laura

"The Sickening Facts About Current Healthcare

#1) An insurance card will be issued to all Americans who have insurance.

#2) You can keep your current doctor IF your insurance company allow it.

#3) You can keep your current insurance UNLESS they deem you too much of a "risk" due to current health problems or possible future health problems.

#4) In the United States, you can find very substantial health care rationing. The care is usually rationed first to the very wealthy who can afford to pay for the things they need themselves or can afford the very best health insurance themselves.

#5) Unlike anywhere else, insurance companies who care about making enough money in the next quarter will decide who gets care and who doesn't, and therefore they will often decide who lives and who dies.

#6) If the insurance company you have does allow you to get care, in order to control costs accountants (and not your doctor) will decide what treatment you can get for your condition. If they decide the treatment you need is not "cost-efficient" then you are sore out of luck.

#7) With our current system, we spends a higher proportion of our GDP on health care than any other country in the world, except for East Timor (Timor-Leste).

#8) The current system does not force all Americans to get health insurance. However, it forces many Americans who otherwise want health insurance to go on without it."

Fixed.

Ironically, many of the above things have happened to me and my family. In my post, not the one above.

Edit: AW MAN. Beat to the punch. :|

8/23/2009 3:10:47 PM

Quantum Mechanic

Lie much?

8/23/2009 3:27:15 PM

Jezebel's Evil Sister

A national health identification card?!!!11!

OMG! No need to go any further. As if having an insurance card in my wallet hasn't been horrible enough, now I'll have to suffer the extreme trauma of having a new card. Oh woe is us. Whatever shall we do?

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to dry my eyes and try to cope, but it's almost unthinkable, I tells you.

8/23/2009 3:36:09 PM

Shane

How the hell is elective abortion all about eugenics?!

8/23/2009 5:36:53 PM

FMG

1. Oh noes! A card that carries all your details that we could have found out by checking your facebook account except it carries important medical information thus allowing us to save lives anywhere much more easily and indeed improve patient treatment since you always have your own "medical files". You don't even have to carry it around!

2. A lot of people in the US don't even have doctors, so saying things like this is retarded.

3. Freemarket bitches! No one said the government can't play. If your insurance is so freaking high that it can't play with the allegedly inefficient and bloated NHSystem then.

4. There is no healthcare rationing because in your country a lot of elderly who need hip replacements die without being to ever afford one. We have a waiting list because there are so many people who REALLY need the surgery.

5. The UK and Canada have a higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality rate. Clearly our bureacrats have gone MAD WITH POWER and are making our children not die and our elderly live longer! The Fiends!

6. Your insurance company dictates what treatment you get... The doctor determines what you need in ours. You can still go private and pay for your boobs...

7. Maybe, maybe not... But put it this way, the insurance companies are a bunch of vampires. Yet your happy giving money to them...

8. No. The current system subjects you to heavy fines if you don't have healthcare. Our system allows you to go to hospital if your ever injured without worrying about the cost.

9. Abortion in socialised medicine is actually a lot lower per capita than under your system.

8/23/2009 5:42:14 PM

GreasetrapTheViking

i don't know much about "obamacare", but i am from canada, so here's my experience:

1) how else would they efficiently stop dem illegul im'gints from stealing your health care

2)meaning if your doctor has a license? it'll be a lot harder for quack doctors to get away with practicing illegally.

3)why do you think you still need insurance? the whole point is for the government to provide health coverage for you.

4)rationing? as in providing to everyone, or cutting back? the states is already considered to have one of the worst, and least accessible, health care systems in the world...

5)i've never heard of any canadian citizen being denied health care. even drug addicts and homeless people get health care, and they're considered drains on society by gov't bureaucrats.
besides, don't your insurance companies already choose who lives and who dies?

6)under your system, your HMO chooses what treatment you get, not your doctor. usually the HMO will have some business affiliation with (i.e. owning) various drug companies, thus pushing those drugs and not providing drugs from competitors. i know of doctors who left jobs in the states because they considered that lack of freedom to be corruption.
under my system, the doctor chooses the best treatment for the patients, and the government decides how much of that treatment they are willing to pay for. even if you end up paying, it will be a small fraction of the cost in the states.

7)are you an economist? every other country w/socialized health care seems to be surviving.

8)everyone who is a citizen will have insurance. you will pay for it through taxes, which end up being much less costly than current american health insurance. most of these taxes end up on alcohol and cigarettes, because drinking and smoking contribute to most canadian health problems.

9)elective =/= mandatory, in fact it's exactly the opposite, genius.

8/23/2009 6:15:33 PM

Vince

I got half way in before I had to ask, where are the downsides.

you list these as "sickening" facts? everyone gets it, you can keep your old doctor, and you can keep your old insurance company if you want, really?

if Odama personally drove to your house and handed you $1 000 000 and a new car, you'd still claim it was an act of pure evil, wouldn't you?

oh yeah, here's the horrible truth about health care in the U.K. and Canada.

the government put's us on a waiting list if the treatment is unavailable at the moment. sometimes up to 6 months, even a year.
emergencies get priority and if your really about to die then you don't wait. at all.
sometimes the bureaucracy is a bitch, sometimes.

that's it.

the horrible truth about your health care.

you get sick, your insurance company you paid out the ass for abandons you for a technicality, you have to pay out of your own pocket and can't.

then you die of starvation on the street before the cancer even has a chance to kill you.

if this happened in Canada or the U.K. there would be investigations, public out cry, and probably some arrests.

happens all the bloody time in your so precious country and you defend it.

8/23/2009 8:02:23 PM

emma

I had a National Health number since the day I was born, it means that all my health records are in one place so should I have an accident all information is avalible on my file, such as medication allergies....I was also able to make an appointment with my doctor this morning, I will not have to pay anything...
The NHS treats whoever comes through there door...It has maintained the health of Dr Stephen Hawkings who would not get health insurance in the US.....

8/24/2009 1:51:03 AM

TheOtherRainMan

I really don't understand why these guys are against UHC. I mean, doesn't this sorta go along with what they preach.... ya know... taking care of the sick for free... JUST LIKE JESUS?

- TORM

8/24/2009 2:23:54 AM

Giveitaday

#1) A National Health identification card will be issued to all Americans.

No it isn't, nor has one been proposed. If fact why would they issue such a thing without a national healthcare system since no such thing has been considered?

#2) You can keep your current doctor IF the government medical boards allow it.

There are no "government medical boards", and as of right now it doesn't look like there is going to be a public insurance option either. What has been proposed is a health insurance mandate that would require all american to have private health insurance, not government run or controlled healthcare. You are simply lying about this.

#3) You can keep your current insurance IF your insurance company does not go out of business because they can't compete with the new government-backed alternative

If they can't compete then they are doing it wrong. Besides as of now there likely will not be a public insurance option. And what if there is? Are you saying that people who can't afford private insurance premiums don't deserve access to medical care?

#4) Virtually everywhere you find nationalized health care around the world, you find very substantial health care rationing. It will be the same under Obamacare.

Except that you don't. Some national health programs are among some of the best in the world. Besides, no one is trying to nationalize health care but health insurance. This my be too much for your withered and largley unused brain but those two are not the same thing.

#5) Just like in the U.K. and Canada, government bureaucrats will decide who gets care and who doesn't, and therefore they will often decide who lives and who dies.

Bullshit. Pure Palin-esque fear mongering. As I said before, no one is proposing national health care, just national health insurance.

#6) If the government does allow you to get care, in order to control costs government bureaucrats (and not your doctor) will decide what treatment you will get for your condition. If they decide the treatment you need is not "cost-efficient" then you are sore out of luck.

Again with the bullshit. HEALTH INSURANCE IS NOT FUCKING HEALTH CARE!!! THEY ARE TWO VERY FUCKING DIFFERENT THINGS YOU IDIOTIC FEAR MONGERING GIT!

#7) The bureaucracy required to run Obamacare will be a nightmare of unprecednted magnitude and it will quickly send federal deficits into the stratosphere

But if it were are republican putting forth such proposals then you would be singing it's praises. You want to talk about unprecadented deficits then I've got two needless wars to tell you about.

#8) Obamacare will FORCE Americans to get health insurance. If you do not get health insurance you will be subjected to extremely heavy fines.

Regretably.

#9) It has been confirmed that elective abortion will be covered for all Americans. Because this is what health care is all about now - eugenics.

For starters elective abortion isn't even close to eugenics, you're lying. Secondly there isn't even a final bill so how can you say with any certainty what is or is not covered? Especially when there may be no government run public insurance option? Pure fear mongering, a despicable, cowardly tactic used by those who cannot muster a real argument and instead resort to appealing to the lowest common denominator.

8/24/2009 8:56:05 AM

NecroVMX

Y'know, I'm no fan of Obama or his ridiculous health care bill, but it doesn't help to just blatantly make up lies and scare tactics about it.

8/24/2009 9:24:16 AM

Morrigan

#1) A National Health identification card will be issued to all Americans.

so? how do you expect them to manage the sistem

#2) You can keep your current doctor IF the government medical boards allow it.

Tell me since when do you have this delusions that the goverment is targeting you specifically.

#3) You can keep your current insurance IF your insurance company does not go out of business because they can't compete with the new government-backed alternative.

greedy companies that make geting sick a nightmare going out of business because of government initiatives. If it only were that easy public health care wouldn't have as many troubles as it has....

#4) Virtually everywhere you find nationalized health care around the world, you find very substantial health care rationing. It will be the same under Obamacare.

Rationing? the worst you will have to do is wait a few weeks for atention, if your problem is not urgent.

#5) Just like in the U.K. and Canada, government bureaucrats will decide who gets care and who doesn't, and therefore they will often decide who lives and who dies.

well, yes they will restric access between those who want to be in the sistem, and those who whine that it will bring the end of civilization.

If you can are happy with your insurance then what the fuck are you crying about?

#6) If the government does allow you to get care, in order to control costs government bureaucrats (and not your doctor) will decide what treatment you will get for your condition. If they decide the treatment you need is not "cost-efficient" then you are sore out of luck.

No, they usually make up a list of treatments that are covered, and usually they add illments as time passes.
Besides, I thought the whole problem with health care in your country was that the HMO's do every kind of burocratic gimnastics to get out of having to pay for your medical bill.


#7) The bureaucracy required to run Obamacare will be a nightmare of unprecednted magnitude and it will quickly send federal deficits into the stratosphere.

All I hear is "let people die, we need the money for our war machine", and to think you were just complaining that the government was going to let people die.


look i sugest you get medical atention for the nasty perforated colon you got when you pulled all that shit out of your ass, i just hope you can afford a doctor....

8/24/2009 11:10:13 AM

tracer

Kinderklein wrote:



Wow. That post was ... positively rational.

I wonder how long it'll be before that moderator gets banned for being "un-Christian".

8/24/2009 11:53:55 AM