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Quote# 66001

[Re: Muslim prayer event at the Capitol]

I suspect that our founding fathers would be just as outraged at this event as we are. Yes, I mean the ones who amended the constitution to include freedom of religion. I bet they never imagined that world travel would skyrocket the way it has in the centuries since they lived. I don't think it occurred to them that there would be such an enormous (and fast growing!) population of people in the USA, most of whom also call themselves American, who worship what the Bible clearly identifies to be a false god. I think our founding fathers had in mind that freedom of religion pertained to your choice of whether to be a Mennonite or a Quaker or even a Catholic. I think they took completely for granted that this is and will always be a Christian nation, as it was when they founded it.

JPE, Rapture Ready 54 Comments [9/27/2009 3:00:12 PM]
Fundie Index: 72
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Orion

Allah = God in another language

Jeese at least us atheists take the time to learn about a religion before we bash it.

9/28/2009 1:20:20 AM

ELBSeattle

This is from the 'I completely don't get it' school of thought.

9/28/2009 1:25:04 AM

aaa

Last time i checked, freedom of religion really means that you can believe in any religion you want. And US Government is still quite secular.

9/28/2009 1:28:00 AM

Giveitaday

I suspect that our founding fathers would be just as outraged at this event as we are

Somehow I doubt that. You seem to be under the impression that all founding fathers were christian ideologues, they were not.

As for your outrage and moral indignation, Why is it that you think that it's perfectly ok for you to condemn muslims for staging an event like this, but when christians are condemned for the very same action you cry persecution and demand that your detractors be silenced?


Yes, I mean the ones who amended the constitution to include freedom of religion

Freedom of Religion, not freedom of christianity or christian denomination, and not supremacy of christianity.

I bet they never imagined that world travel would skyrocket the way it has in the centuries since they lived.

What does that have to do with anything?

I don't think it occurred to them that there would be such an enormous (and fast growing!) population of people in the USA,

I think that's exactly what they intended, and both the wording of the 1st ammendment and the subsequent writings and letter of the founding fathers backs me up. And to clear up one point, the fast growing segment of the country in terms of religious affilation is non-believers, atheists and agnostics.

most of whom also call themselves American

Are you implying that the founders intended for only christians to be citizens or have the right to call thmselves american?

who worship what the Bible clearly identifies to be a false god.

Once again, so what? there is no word, phrase, clause, or ammendment that so much as mentions christianity or the christian god much less commands or compels americans to acknowledge the christian god as real and all others false.

I think our founding fathers had in mind that freedom of religion pertained to your choice of whether to be a Mennonite or a Quaker or even a Catholic.

So why is it that the writings and letters of many of the founders refute you interpretation? Why is it you think that you know what they "really" intended, regardless of what they had to say on the subject. Further more, if the only choice for religion is limited to various christian denominations then you don't have freedom of religion. Freedom of religion must, bt necessity, be absolute.

I think they took completely for granted that this is and will always be a Christian nation, as it was when they founded it.

Do you honestly think that in the late 1700's that america was populated exclusively by christians? There were jews, muslims, hindus, animists, shintoist, and buddhists already living in america at that time, and I find it highly unlike that information was unknown by the founders.

Then there's the Treaty of Tripoli, which was negotiated, signed, and ratified by George Washington, John Adams, and a US Senate containing several of the founders, respectively. The treaty spells out in clear and unambigous terms that specify that the US is not, was not, and was never intented to be a "christian nation". If it were then there would be no clause the prohibits any religious test for and public office or trust.

If the founders intended to create a christian nation then why didn't they spell that out clearly in the text of the constitution? Given the depth of the document it's self it's unlikely that the took the idea for granted or just forgot to include it. The original intent of the founders can only be judged based on their writings and addenda, and it's the height of ignorance to assume or to claim that you have insight or knowledge into "What the founders 'really' intended.", especially when your claims contradict the the expressed opinion of of many of the founders?

9/28/2009 4:05:30 AM

Mister Spak

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.

Thomas Jefferson's Autobiography

9/28/2009 4:17:20 AM

PWEOTWEB

If you really wanna know what the Founding Fathers would've said, do what Cartman did in South Park.

I'm waiting.

9/28/2009 4:51:07 AM

Table Rock

Mennonite or a Quaker or even a Catholic

I'm sure you would outlaw those too if you could.

It's freedom of religion, not freedom of religions you agree with.

9/28/2009 6:15:03 AM

Elphada

Wrong! They didn't take anything for granted and they didn't say American will always be Christian. It's not a Christian nation! You guys are a majority in this nation but yet you can't get a damn thing done.

9/28/2009 7:57:46 AM

Headache

It's all the same shitty god, JPE.

You are worshiping GAY (God/Allah/Yaweh)

9/28/2009 8:55:48 AM

Clown

Or, you could actually read what the founding fathers said and wrote while they were alive. Whatever rocks your boat.

9/28/2009 10:40:39 AM

Yama the Space Fish

For fuck's sake, Valerian Trifa led the opening prayer before the US Senate.

9/28/2009 10:52:35 AM

Brent

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Yup, that's right...the act that was the baseline used to develop the 1st Amendment freedom of religion...so would you like to talk about your little idea that the founding fathers weren't aware of anyone coming here and worshipping other gods?

9/28/2009 11:15:16 AM

Papabear

You suspect, you bet, you don't think, you think, and you think (again,) but you don't actually have any hard evidence. Perfect RR facts.

9/28/2009 12:12:02 PM

sooze

The Founding Fathers also owned slaves and had to leave the house to take a dump.

When are we going to stop hyperventilating over what the founding fathers supposedly wanted and get on with life in the 21st century??

9/28/2009 3:23:00 PM



yes cause freedom of religion clearly means "freedom to worship MY religion and no other'

9/28/2009 4:45:36 PM

AXavierB

Except Muslims and Christians both worship the same deity, dipshit.


9/28/2009 4:58:57 PM

Kat

Wow, and all this time I thought that the reason that our founding fathers wanted to keep church and state seperate was because they didn't want a government telling the people how to worship God correctly and ruin the people's spirituality nor did they want a church to start running the goverment theocraticly with disregard to the best interests of the people.

9/28/2009 6:54:53 PM

Dr. Novakaine

Fundies trying to desperately turn to the Founders for validation are only going to be disappointed. The foundation of this country was on no religion at all, and nothing you say is going to change that fact.

9/29/2009 7:59:40 AM

Canadiest

If you ever made Christianity the only religion, then you'd only push until you had one or a few agreeable sects.

Who would you eliminate? The Catholics for sure, then over half your Christian base disappears and are against you.

Rapture Ready Repeaters never think it through. Guess the rest of us care about tomorrow

9/29/2009 4:03:30 PM

Antichrist

Wasn't it Jefferson who brought the first Koran into the white house?

9/30/2009 3:19:20 PM

Shadoboy

Freedom of religion doesn't mean "Choose the religion you want as long as it worships the same God as I do"

And, coincidentally, Muslims adore your same God. "Allah" is just their word for it.

10/1/2009 1:21:20 AM

Darkwulf

You DO realize that many of the founding fathers were Deists/Agnostics/Atheists right? And even the ones that were Christians identified themselves as secularists above all else. Hell Thomas Jefferson was even known for completely rewriting whole parts of the bible!

10/1/2009 6:27:24 AM

Moondog

D'ya think JPE gasped before he forced himself to write, "even a Catholic"? The First Amendment protects all, or even no religion. Not just your White, Protestant, Evangelical religion. It's a freedom of conciousness clause.

10/1/2009 7:06:16 AM

RussianCircles

“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion”

George Washington quote

1/9/2010 2:22:14 PM

Quantum Mechanic

I don't think you've read the founder's opinions on the matter.

5/17/2011 2:17:42 PM
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