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Quote# 67789

[The ninth commandment says we should never bear false witness against our neighbor (or anyone). But if the Nazis are looking for Jews, and you know where they are, it would not be wrong to lie, in order to protect them, nor would this be bearing false witness “against” someone]

If we love God, we should obey Him (John 14:15). To love God first means to obey Him first—before looking at our neighbor. So, is the greater good trusting God when He says not to lie or trusting in our fallible, sinful minds about the uncertain future?

Consider this carefully. In the situation of a Nazi beating on the door, we have assumed a lie would save a life, but really we don’t know. So, one would be opting to lie and disobey God without the certainty of saving a life—keeping in mind that all are ultimately condemned to die physically. Besides, whether one lied or not may not have stopped the Nazi solders from searching the house anyway.

As Christians, we need to keep in mind that Jesus Christ reigns. All authority has been given to Him (Matthew 28:18), and He sits on the throne of God at the right hand of the Father (Acts 2:33; Hebrews 8:1). Nothing can happen without His say. Even Satan could not touch Peter without Christ’s approval (Luke 22:31). Regardless, if one were to lie or not, Jesus Christ is in control of timing every person’s life and able to discern our motives. It is not for us to worry over what might become, but rather to place our faith and obedience in Christ and to let Him do the reigning. For we do not know the future, whereas God has been telling the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10).

Bodie Hodge, Answers in Genesis 72 Comments [11/24/2009 7:30:07 PM]
Fundie Index: 86
WTF?! || meh
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werewolf

I would argue that religious beliefs and the morality they engender are, on the whole, selfish, self-serving and bereft of any human decency.

Whatever happened to the concept of right and wrong or doing unto others as you wish they would do unto you?

I'd further argue that this example is The Mark of the Beast, if ever there was one.

11/25/2009 3:01:39 AM

jsvenier

Isn't this a complete abdication of responsibility for our fellow men?

11/25/2009 4:11:30 AM

Brenz

Jesus spent a lot of His brief time on Earth healing people you would have left to die, asshole.

Did you just spend the effort to justify in Scripture why we should let the Nazis take the Jews? Does it not matter to you that their intent to break a higher-priority commandment obligates you to prevent them, even if you must break a less important one?

Is it not right to steal a school bus to evacuate a war zone? Or have you never, ever stayed home on the Sabbath when you were sick?

11/25/2009 4:13:28 AM

The L

Bodie, "Godwin" doesn't mean "God wins." It really doesn't.

However, you have just clearly demonstrated a startling lack of compassion and basic human decency.

11/25/2009 4:47:09 AM

nutbunny

But telling the nazi that you have a jew in the basement is sure to get them sent to a concentration camp and killed. Does not that count as murder?

11/25/2009 5:43:55 AM

Nathan the Wise

There were plenty of Christians thought like this during the Nazizeit. Ones with armbands on, usually.

11/25/2009 6:21:04 AM

a well known dangerous villain

Remember kids, lieing is worse than allowing people to be gassed in chambres!

11/25/2009 6:33:54 AM

Mister Spak

Where does free will fit into this?

11/25/2009 6:38:34 AM

rubber chicken

Three reichs and your out.

11/25/2009 7:30:39 AM

Zeus Almighty

But if the Nazis are looking for Jews, and you know where they are, it would not be wrong to lie, in order to protect them, nor would this be bearing false witness ?against? someone]

Code red history fail: It was the Christians who turned in their Jewish neighbors, dummkopf. In countries that Germany invaded the residents often were out in front of the Nazis on massacring the Jews in their towns -- often in order to expropriate their property.

11/25/2009 8:01:00 AM



we have assumed a lie would save a life, but really we don’t know

But it was absolutely known what would happen to Jews who were found out by the Nazis! They would be sent to the gas chambers and you, Bodie Hodge, know they would by previous examples of Nazi behavior.

keeping in mind that all are ultimately condemned to die physically

I don't need to be religious or a believer to know that we're all going to die someday. Why not help your fellow man to maximize the time he/she has in this world? Seems to me that's worth lying for, even worth dying for.

11/25/2009 8:10:42 AM

LDM

If I'd live in Europe in the 40's, I would have done everything in my power to help those targeted by the Nazis, and if I knew where Jews were hiding, you're damn right I would have lied about it. Even if I was a christian.

The commandment, as I was taught, says "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor"

Your neighbors are the people who live around you, not the invaders set out to destroy the neighborhood.

And what about "Thou shalt not kill". If you've betrayed hidden Jews (not to mention gays, gypsies, the disabled, resistance members, partisans, and the many others targeted by the Nazis) then you've killed them as surely as the guns and gas chambers did.

I would rather die myself, than have that on my conscience for the rest of my life.

I'm sure Jesus would agree with me 100% on that.


11/25/2009 8:25:49 AM

D Laurier

AIG; Justifying cowardice since it's creation.

11/25/2009 9:26:35 AM

Gah

So, nobody should do a damned thing to change or alter anything that ever happens in the world, because everything that does happen is the way God planned it regardless? Do you not see how hideously flawed this argument is? What if you lying is part of God's supposed 'plan'?

And if you seriously believe this crap, please, please do us all a favour and take it to heart. Stay in your home, barricaded off from the world, and do not under any circumstances try to change anyone's life, particularly by preaching your shoddy beliefs at them. If your God wants them to believe your religion, they'll do so regardless of you, right? So do us all a favour and shut the hell up.

11/25/2009 9:31:40 AM

Gloria

Then on judgement day, the Lord will turn to those on his left, and say "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was under threat of a terrible death from an evil government and you actively cooperated in handing me over."

Christ held people responsible for their own actions. As a rule, the murder of innocents is considered bad. If you connect those two concepts, you should come up with something along the lines of "when the Nazis are beating on the door, letting them in and giving them directions to the Jews' hiding place is a sin." If you don't, there is something very very wrong with you. Then again, we knew that...

11/25/2009 9:44:54 AM



@Zeus Almighty

where is the history fail? I can't see any relationship between your comment and the quote...

11/25/2009 9:50:19 AM

GodotIsWaiting4U

And that is why we don't think you're good people.

11/25/2009 10:18:49 AM

storymoron

I can't help but feel that if the Nazis were after Mr. Hodge, he'd be begging everyone around him to lie about his whereabouts.

11/25/2009 11:07:28 AM

the old firm

When you have to decide between doing the right thing and doing the (assumed) religious correct thing, a true fundie always chooses the second option. Isn't that right Bodie Hodge?

And that's why I despise the likes of you.

As for telling that even evil comes from God, well...


11/25/2009 11:17:20 AM

Headache

AIG should be changed to LIG or Lying in Genesis...

11/25/2009 11:32:55 AM

ironknee

poe

11/25/2009 11:34:17 AM

Zimmer

This is not funny.

This is pure evil you're looking at, folks.

11/25/2009 11:35:20 AM

Mech610

But the fact of the matter is that even if you don't save a life, even if they kill you in the process, your God who we are led to believe is loving and all that good stuff, would still consider attempting to hide an innocent civilian from genocide a good deed.

But apparently this Fundie moron forgot the fact that in their own book it more or less says God gives you points for trying.

11/25/2009 12:00:36 PM

Swede

Correct me if I'm wrong, but "bearing false witness", doesn't that mean to commit perjury to your neighbor's detriment? Not just plain lying.
In any case, "thou shalt not kill" is higher up on the list, and to tell where someone was hiding, was in effect to kill him.

"In countries that Germany invaded the residents often were out in front of the Nazis on massacring the Jews in their towns -- often in order to expropriate their property."
Thou shalt not covet the property of thy neighbor. That is in there among the commandments as well, last time I checked.

Edit. Sorry, I learned english english in school, so my fingers spell it "neighbour" on their own accord. As this is mostly an american site, the well-bred way to spell it is without the U.

11/25/2009 12:33:01 PM

Reckoner

And yet they call moral relativism the worst thing to happen to the world.

11/25/2009 12:43:54 PM
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