[On the Haitian earthquake.]
If we are just 'evolved' pond scum, why bother helping anyone in Haiti, let alone anywhere else? (You know, survival of the fittest...)
It is because we have a God given sense of morality that evolution does not and can not explain. Do you have a sense of right and wrong? If so, where did it come from...?
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We evolved altruism as a means of survival, you clod. Also, you appear to be using this tragedy to form an (old and tired) 'argument' against evolution which has been debunked hundreds of times. I believe the term that applies to you would be "vulture".
If we are just 'evolved' pond scum, why bother helping anyone in Haiti, let alone anywhere else?
Because we aren't pond scum. Evolution means change. Evolving from "pond scum" doesn't mean we are still pond scum any more than you growing from a baby means that you are still a baby.
(You know, survival of the fittest...)
"Survival of the fittest" is not a moral doctrine. It's an observation that in nature, those who are best suited to their environment are the ones who survive.
It is because we have a God given sense of morality that evolution does not and can not explain.
Actually, evolution can easily explain morality: it is beneficial to the species as a whole if we have a sense of justice. If we just went around killing each other and letting everyone die, our species wouldn't survive for very long!
Do you have a sense of right and wrong? If so, where did it come from...?
A combination of societal conditioning and critical thinking.
Survival of the fittest indeed. S'why some animals hunt in packs. TEAMWORK. It's an evolved mean of survival of the fittest, transforming a group of individuals into one entity, one team, one society for strength and survival of a race.
We are helping them because of it! We EVOLVED CARING.
How does just saying "oh well" and letting everyone in Haiti die in their misery further the species?
Meanwhile, if this had been a natural disaster that wiped out, say, a good portion of Alabama or some other Bible belt state, it would be "oh, everyone pray for our white brethren in Christ".
Oh yes, I went there, and I think we all know that's what it's about.
operative word "evolved"
as part of our community instinct we developed compassion, empathy, and sympathy in order to succeed better as a species. No god here,move right along there....
I just look to myself:
No morality anywhere, hardly even "right and wrong". Just basic human decency.
Because we can. Because we didn't need a god to give us a sense of loss when one of our loved ones dies, and being tribal animals, we can empathize. God is how the clergy tried to take ownership of everything human. You don't need a big dick in the sky to tell you what is right unless you have the moral sense of a four-year old.
Then again, maybe some of us are un-evolved pond scum.
Morality is a learned behavior. There is a model describing a scale of different levels of morality. Since the only morality you have is only because of rules given to you, promise of reward, or threat of punishment, then you fall on the lowest of the morality scale.
Too bad you have to be told what's right and wrong; the rest of us learn via life.
Of course evolution doesn't explain it. Morality is a question of ethics, which is a question of philosophy. Evolution, being biology, cannot explain philosophy, the same way that an electrician can't explain music theory.
Stone Age Village A consists of sociopaths who would slit their neighbors' throat for an extra mammoth steak and murder their way to becoming chief.
Stone Age Village B consists of alturistic tribesmen, sharing resources, looking after each other's young and usually keeping within agreed rules.
Which village do you think would survive long term?
Why do you retards always mistake what "is" with what "ought to" be?
I want to be a part of a world civilization that helps out people that are suffering like those in Haiti. What evolution teaches us is that we should not expect a lot of help from our biologic nature in that pursuit but we are the first species in 4 billion years that has the ability to overcome the designs of our selfish genes.
Also, like everything else, morality has evolved. This has been proven by people called "scientists" that do something called "research" and draw "conclusions" based on that "research". This is opposed to your method of discovery which basically involves pulling things from your anus.
Again, survival of the fittest does not mean what you think it means. It means survival of the fittest to fit that particular niche in the ecosystem.
As for helping Haiti, we're very social creatures with a concept of the entire planet. Never heard of the "global village"?
A barn cat has more social empathy than you do.
By the same logic, if everything is God's doing, why bother helping anyone in Haiti, let alone anywhere else?
Do you have a sense of right and wrong? If so, where did it come from
Where did the Chinese and the ancient Egyptians get theres?
The God Delusion, chapter 6.
When you're done, move on to some of the sources cited; they make an excellent further reading list. I can help you if you exhaust them quickly and need more material, which I'm sure will happen soon since you seem so interested in doing research to find an answer to these questions.
Some say that God gave us our sense morality right? But when looking at the Adem and Eve story, it seems to me that the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is what gave us our morality; after all knowing the difference between the two is a centural pillar as to becoming a moral person.
To me, the ten commandments are more a set of rules that later God imposed, which has often been used by Fundementalists to claim God is the source for all morality. However, without the knowledge of good and evil first gained by sinning against God, how would have humanity known whether they were breaking the rules God later set out?
In conclusion, I am thinking that our morality first came through original sin, with the rules to follow coming later, which to me means that if Fundementalists wish to retain the idea God gave us our morality they must imply that he wished for the fall to happen!
After all he just happened to come across Adem and Eve almost immediatly after they had eaten the fruit, and he is supposed to be all seeing and all knowing. Kind of suspicious if you ask me.
If we didn't care about each other we would've gone extinct because, as individuals, we're poorly suited to surviving most situations. As a group, however, we can take on damn near anything.
And by the way, being the fittest doesn't necessarily being the strongest physically and it doesn't mean that you're immune from natural disasters. After, when you think about the billions of things that could have killed you from when you were conceived to right now, your survival is partly the result of good genetics and immunity to disease, and partly luck.
@ND
Think of me as playing Devil's Advocate.
Having studied ethics at university for the last four years, I can safely say that the capacity to reason coupled with natural emotions is more than sufficient to develop a sense of morality. Both human intelligence and emotions can neatly be explained by evolution, so I don't need to invoke a God of the Gaps to explain it.
If the people in Haiti are being watched over by an omnipotent, omniscient, omni-benevolent God, why should we NEED to help them?
"If we are just 'evolved' pond scum, why bother helping anyone in Haiti, let alone anywhere else? (You know, survival of the fittest...)"
Because, unlike you guys, we care about our fellow man. All your kind are doing is saying God punished these poor people, or that Satan was behind it all, and claiming that by praying you're actually do something (yeah, you're actually making yourselves feel better and that's all).
Pray all you want, but actions speak louder than words.
From my parents explaining to me from the time I was old enough to walk that helping other people is GOOD, and hurting other people is BAD.
Later on, in Sunday School, I learned about the Ten Commandments. Because of the aforementioned guidance from my parents, most of these rules were pretty fucking obvious.
Well, if we're evolved pond scum, Buddha alone knows what you are.
And I always thought that empathy and compassion for our fellow humans were a large part of what made a person fit to survive: caring for others helps ensure that others will care for you when you need it.
If your god was supposed to give you a sense of morality, please tell him that he's royally fucked that up.
Because we're a social species. We survive as groups, not individuals. "Survival of the Fittest" doesn't mean "might makes right." It means that the species that are most adapted to their environment are the ones who survive. "The Fittest" doesn't have to be the biggest, the strongest, or even the smartest. It all depends on what it takes to survive in your environment. Our species flourishes not because we're strong and mean, but because we're intelligent and work together to help one another survive.
And if the God of the Bible gave me a sense of right and wrong, why am I so much more moral than he is? I don't support mass murder, slavery, rape, pedophilia, or eternal punishment for temporary misdeeds.
My morality comes from my sense of empathy and the common values of my culture. Some of us don't need the constant threat of an eternal punishment to behave morally. If you do, please keep going to church...you sick fuck.
Actually, it's an evolutionary premise, as well, the gregarious nature of mammals and birds, you know?. Together THEY SURVIVE BETTER.
Weird, the God you beleive in (who you believe apparently created us all from dirt) is rather selective who he has compassion for, isn't he?
Just read your bible and look at the past behaviour of christians.
Edit: Rather un-ethical of god to "smite" these poor (many of them god fearing) people isn't it? Or let me guess, do as I say, not as I do?
Huge threads unravelling here!
It is because we have a God given sense of morality that evolution does not and can not explain.
You don't read the AAAS Science Journal, do you?
'Survival of the fittest' refers to the strongest species avoiding extinction because they had useful traits.
Due to the fact that the people of Haiti are members of our species, the reason we help them, besides the fact that humans evolved logic, reason and compassion is also due to the fact that by supporting other humans, we are therefore propagating the continued existence of the Human species and thus avoiding extinction.
Certainly not from the author of a book that's gung-ho on incest, slavery, war, racism, religious intolerance and genocide.
Morality comes from empathy, common values, and the realization that we survive better as a group.
Whereas if your morality is "God-given," you must consider mized fabrics, eating seafood and working on Sunday to be immoral, while slavery, mass-murder and rape are all acceptable.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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