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Quote# 71027

I've seen a bunch of atheists argue on this board that God killed the whole population in the flood and he's a bigger murderer than Hitler and we shouldn't praise someone more evil than Hitler.

But, I am shocked by this. Atheists seem to pride themselves on rational thinking and logic. How does logic not dictate to the atheist that the world is God's to DO AS HE SEES FIT? God is the creator and owner. Since when does God follow orders?

Why would the laws God gives us apply to him? It would be like asking, "Why isn't that cop getting pulled over for driving 100?" Well, who's gonna pull him over? He's on top! The laws are made for us, not the cops.

Why do atheists always like to argue God is murderer? In fact, God by definition can not murder. Murder is HUMANS murdering HUMANS.

Self-Mutation, FRDB 92 Comments [2/23/2010 7:08:16 PM]
Fundie Index: 81
WTF?! || meh
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Wehpudicabok

We reject the idea that God necessarily gets to make the (moral) rules. In this particular case, God causes a lot of suffering for humans that could easily be avoided. This cannot be considered morally praiseworthy in any framework.

If I have kids, I can make some rules, but I shouldn't harm them. Even if I claim I am acting according to the rules I created, I am not praiseworthy.

2/23/2010 7:10:33 PM

Tyler

Nobody should be above the law.

And besides, why would an atheist of all people believe that Gawd is the 'creator and owner'? Perspective fail.

Murder, as defined by Merriam-Webster: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.


2/23/2010 7:11:57 PM

Doubting Thomas

Might doesn't make right. And if a cop is driving 100 MPH for no good reason, he deserves to be pulled over & given a speeding ticket.

But Self-Mutation (read that at first as Self-Mutilation) doesn't answer the question as to why anyone should worship a being who can kill people at will. Such a being is not worthy of worship or adoration.

2/23/2010 7:12:14 PM

Shadow Boxer

That part about the cops made me think this one is a Poe.
"The laws are made for us, not the cops." in particular.

2/23/2010 7:16:45 PM

Percy Q. Shunn

So, your god says "Do as I say, not as I do?"

If you're ok with that, then you are stupider than you look.

2/23/2010 7:17:47 PM

jadehawk

um. dude... laws are supposed to apply to cops and governments, too. what sort of dictatorial, fucked up world do you live in?!

2/23/2010 7:18:54 PM

Sisyphus

One could argue that a human is the owner of his pets and therefore can treat them however he wants to. However, that doesn't make him any less of an asshole if he abuses them, starves them or otherwise mistreats them.

This is such a simple concept why do they have so much trouble with it?

2/23/2010 7:20:01 PM

campbunny

Meh. Pretty standard. You can't argue that Yahweh's actions are cruel, because he's allowed to do whatever he wants. Not really an answer, but satisfactory to people who honestly think that morals have nothing to do with suffering or happiness, but rather are merely arbitrary rules set by a celestial knob-twiddler, much like physical constants or other aspects of creation.

2/23/2010 7:20:06 PM



You just described a tyrant. It's their kingdom, they (and their ancestors) built it, and the people living there are their subjects. Why should people not follow their laws no matter how insane or hurtful? Why should they seek to rebel against tyranny so they could make a better life for themselves and their children?

And, btw, there's a push (in my area at least) for cops to not be allowed to drive at whatever speed they like unless there's an emergency as there have been unnecessary accidents. They're also policed heavily, themselves, to make sure abuse is punished. So, that's a horrible example,

Also - No matter how you define murder, your religion depicts people being "unfairly" killed (that is to say, if you think there are situations where it is fair to kill someone, that is not the case with some of the things your religion describes its god as doing). You can't get around that by playing word games.

2/23/2010 7:21:28 PM

Sweet Fancy Moses

Omnipotence and omnibenevolence. Look into it.

2/23/2010 7:31:18 PM

louislois

"Self-Mutation"? Does that username describe what happened to your brain cells?

Cops aren't above the law, you tard. They have to obey it just like all tax-paying citizens of a civil society.

And your god really is a prick if he thinks that murdering countless millions if fine just so he make a point. Doesn't really sound like he's worthy of my attention and worship.

2/23/2010 7:31:33 PM



Atheists seem to pride themselves on rational thinking and logic. How does logic not dictate to the atheist that the world is God's to DO AS HE SEES FIT?

Uh, because that logic is fucking stupid? We're God's "children," essentially. You DO NOT have the right to murder your children just because you feel like it. Why? Because they're goddamned human beings. If you create sentient beings, it's your responsibility to take care of them.

Why would the laws God gives us apply to him? It would be like asking, "Why isn't that cop getting pulled over for driving 100?" Well, who's gonna pull him over? He's on top! The laws are made for us, not the cops.

.....What the fuck? I'm pretty sure police are still supposed to follow the laws, not just do whatever they want. Also, cops don't make the laws. Fail analogy is fail.

Why do atheists always like to argue God is murderer? In fact, God by definition can not murder. Murder is HUMANS murdering HUMANS.

This is just semantics. If you want me to go along with it, I'll say, "Okay, he's not a murderer. He's an animal abuser who cruelly tortures helpless beings lower than himself, just like a human drowning an innocent puppy.

...But it's all irrelevant anyway since it's just a fairy tale and God doesn't really exist."

Happy now?

2/23/2010 7:32:38 PM

caustic gnostic

Hey Self-Mutilation, the monster under your bed wants you to die in your sleep tonight.

Sucks to be you. I don't keep a monster.

2/23/2010 7:39:43 PM

Antichrist

How does logic not dictate to the atheist that the world is God's to DO AS HE SEES FIT? God is the creator and owner. Since when does God follow orders?

So as a mother and creator of a life, I can drown my babies? How about sell them into slavery or use them as plough animals? After all, they're mine to do with as I see fit.

Why do we send animal abusers to jail? After all, it's my animal, I own it, I should be able to do with it as I see fit.


"Why isn't that cop getting pulled over for driving 100?" Well, who's gonna pull him over? He's on top! The laws are made for us, not the cops.
Oh for fucks sake, you really think cops are above the law? You have serious issues regarding authority figures

Why do atheists always like to argue God is murderer?


God by definition can not murder. Murder is HUMANS murdering HUMANS.
I actually agree with you on this one. God cannot murder anymore than the Easter Bunny can murder. But a hell of a lot more people are murdered in the name of Gods than in the name of any rabbit.

2/23/2010 7:40:42 PM



Your example fails. Cops can only bend the rules if they need to in order to perform their duties. While they're allowed to speed in pursuit of a suspect or to reach a crime scene (they tend to have their lights and sirens on for this), any other time and they're breaking the law just like everyone else.

As for your god not following their own rules, this is why I kinda like the old polytheistic myths better. They at least acknowledged that their gods could be selfish, hateful, cruel and petty, but having that many gods meant that those gods kept each other in check (more or less).

2/23/2010 7:43:36 PM

I Read About The Afterlife

You know what we call a King that does not follow his own orders? A tyrant.

And a cop that breaks the law is corrupt.


You were saying?

2/23/2010 7:46:49 PM

Malkyrian

So, Self-Mutation, out of curiosity, what's your opinion on this guy?


2/23/2010 7:54:57 PM

Jewsus

One word: legitimacy; as in your god has none.

2/23/2010 7:56:04 PM

John

You've missed the point. Just because nobody can stop you from murdering somebody, it's still murder. Nobody's questioning whether God can kill anyone He likes without answering to anyone. So could Hitler (or Pontius Pilate for that matter). Do you admire them for it?

2/23/2010 8:02:38 PM

Adam

"Why do atheists always like to argue God is murderer? In fact, God by definition can not murder. Murder is HUMANS murdering HUMANS."

Actually, the Bible...the TEN COMMANDMENTS contain the words thou shalt not kill. Murder is a legal term. Killing is simply taking a life. And consdering the special place that god put humans in according to the Bible (he formed them, rather than speaking them into existance, breathed life into them, and made them in his own image), then it would seem that taking a human life would be immoral.

2/23/2010 8:02:55 PM

TGRwulf

Yeeeeah, I call poe

2/23/2010 8:28:45 PM

ME

Ummm, actually, it is illegal for a cop to speed as well. The most just humane judge is bound by the same laws that he/she presides over. He/she is not above any law. ... Likewise, a god, any god would be bound by the very laws it created. It could not be above the law. To do so would make such a being a tyrant that is unworthy of any worship, praise, or respect.

2/23/2010 8:51:14 PM

werewolf

Because a lawgiver who does not follow his own laws is an evil scumbag, that's why.

Which is why cops who do not follow the law are criminals.

2/23/2010 8:57:50 PM

TB Tabby

"But, I am shocked by this. Atheists seem to pride themselves on rational thinking and logic. How does logic not dictate to the atheist that the world is God's to DO AS HE SEES FIT? God is the creator and owner. Since when does God follow orders?"

So might makes right? It's okay for God to torture and murder and do everything he says is immoral, just because nobody can stop him? That's some moral code he's got. I have a hard time taking an objective moral code seriously when the person putting it forward refuses to follow it.

"The laws are made for us, not the cops."

John Serpico should punch you in the face. Guess what, Mutie? COPS ARE SUBJECT TO LAWS TOO. In fact, it's even worse when they break the law, because they're supposed to be the ones upholding it! Yet you're trying to claim that it's okay for the people who are supposed to uphold justice are committing injustices.

"Why do atheists always like to argue God is murderer? In fact, God by definition can not murder. Murder is HUMANS murdering HUMANS."

So if a dog mauls a kid to death, we shouldn't call animal control or anything? The dog's not human, so it shouldn't be taken to take for killing a human. Not murder, after all.

2/23/2010 9:02:06 PM

Realityman

Poe?
I think not as I have heard variations on this line from sincere fundies.

Herein lies the most basic of differences between the christianist moral system and the moral system of ethical atheists.

As an atheist I feel, am convinced there is a difference between right and wrong. That difference arises from the effect of ones actions on the health and well being of the parties affected by my action. In that light killing another, especially an innocent, is simply wrong.

The fundie mindset is that good and evil is defined by decision of god. There is no appeal to logic or consequence in this set of "morals". That license opens up approval of the myriad evils acts done in the Old Testament supposedly in the name of god.

To entertain the momentary thought that good and evil are inherently good and evil in and of themselves and not the product of divine whim is poison to fundie cosmology. As a result fundies are dangerously immoral in any area that they are not clearly directed by their christianist teachings. (Witness the persecution of homosexuals, or perhaps the long term, extreme resistance to basic civil rights for blacks and women.)

Thus their god is called good, all the time, despite his demonstrable monstrous cruelty and injustice.

I know from the inside as I was once one of these blind souls.



2/23/2010 9:04:49 PM
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