You really don't get it do you the Constitution limits government only not the people so it can be taught anywhere in school because the school makes no laws. BTW your incessant demands on me answering your perceived questions isn't going anywhere or did you not notice that? I did answer dan's question but not to your liking. But I'll again make it a little clearer for you> The limits of religious interference are put on Congress ONLY not "WE THE PEOPLE" as you would have us believe. The Church can and does intercede with "WE THE PEOPLE" by freely helping the down and out by whatever is necessary WITHOUT government interference whereas again the government can't tell the church who and when to help. ONLY THE CONGRESS IS LIMITED BY THE 1ST AMENDMENT NOT THE CHURCH IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. And again you can claim their rights weren't violated but they were forced to hid/remove there bibles and their artwork which directly violated their freedoms regardless of you "OPINION" because legal counsel was sought and an agreement was made despite involving the court system. My sister in law is a lawyer and most problems are resolved between lawyers and and the court only OK's the final settlement and guess what no court hearing. So please stop trying to treat me a a fool who is not as well educated as you think you are. And your interpretation of the 1st Amendment and what it really says only takes a grade school education. I very rarely agree with a non believer and this is surly not one of those times. Also I said your interpretation of the Danbury letters were a fallacy because they didn't establish the "Separation of Church and State" as YOU CLAIM. Maybe you missed that part?
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Blahblah I want to teach my bible bullshit in schools because more and more people get the proper education to see through all the crap blahblah...
You know what, fine. Teach your bible as fact. I'll be over here with Europe, Japan and other places with a high standard of learning, pointing and laughing at what your country will become (all Americans who actually care about proper education are welcome of course).
Ok, let's try this one more time.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
As we are only addressing the religious aspect, we'll ignore the remainder of the amendment. What that first part means, is, that the government will not create a "state religion", such as the Church of England. This also means that the horseshit you believe cannot take precedence over the horseshit the other guy believes. Therefore, no tax money may be used to teach christianity to children. If we were to allow this, then tax money must be used to educate these same children about other religions. Fortunately, our Constitutional framers recognized that slippery slope.
If you don't like it, send your idiot, fundie automotons to a parochial school - at your own expense, of course.
Inaccurate wall of text is inaccurate, for all of the obvious reasons stated by other commenters above.
Also, very difficult to read. Someone needs to teach these goons about the Enter key and what it can do for their online interaction.
I also giggle when I think of the possibility of, say, Zoroastrianism becoming the state-sponsored religion. Or the Church of Hyrule. Bet the fundies would be all for separation of church and state then...
"the Constitution limits government only not the people so it can be taught anywhere in school because the school makes no laws"
The public school system is run by the government and funded by the taxpayers, therefore the establishment clause applies to it.
"So please stop trying to treat me a a fool who is not as well educated as you think you are".
You're NOT well educated. Stop blaming the messenger and take some classes in English and civics.
The Church can and does intercede with "WE THE PEOPLE" by freely helping the down and out by whatever is necessary...
Good for the church. Still doesn't mean anything legally. Still doesn't mean they're better than you or I.
...WITHOUT government interference whereas again the government can't tell the church who and when to help.
The government can't tell the church who to help but the government can help the down and out too. Remember that storm a few years ago called Katrina? How about that nasty building collapse called 9/11?
ONLY THE CONGRESS IS LIMITED BY THE 1ST AMENDMENT NOT THE CHURCH IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.
Yes, congress is limited by not being able to establish a national religion per the Establishment clause. However, religions are also limited by not being able to be established as a national religion. Sounds like a limitation to me.
Anyone who could type that up has reading comprehension and composition skills above most Fundies. It's these types that I really don't understand because they shouldn't be misunderstanding the constitution, so,,,
1) He's ignoring the constitution
2) He doesn't care what it says
3) He thinks his religion trumps it but won't admit it and/or
4) The brainwashing has shorted out the logic circuits of an otherwise working brain (took out paragraph break knowledge on the way through)
Ah, it's more of the old "The First Amendment says that government can't interfere with religion, not the other way around" nonsense.
I guess you need to read the First Amendment again, because nowhere does it say that churches have the right to do whatever they want, including preaching to kids inside schools without hindrance.
And the Establishment Clause applies to all factions of government, not just Congress, due to the 14th Amendment (I think? Too early in the morning without caffeine to think clearly).
And you haven't read your Constitution, have you martib? Therefore 'you really don't get it do you'?
It says so much about a country when more people outside of said country know more about the laws of that land than a sizeable percentage of it's population.
"ONLY THE CONGRESS IS LIMITED BY THE 1ST AMENDMENT NOT THE CHURCH IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM."
So, this wall of separation between Church and State that everyone is always talking about is one of those fancy one-sided walls, right? Someone explain how a one-sided wall works because I just can't comprehend such a thing.
Your incessant idiotic blithering isn't making any sense or did you not notice that?
The first amendment was based on Virginias religious freedom law which was written by THOMAS JEFFERSON who WROTE THE DANBURY LETTER and you would expect Jefferson knew WHAT HIS OWN LAW MEANT! Maybe you missed that part.
One key flaw there: public schools are not run by "We the people", they're run by the State therefore separation of church and state applies to them. However, private schools (which ARE run by "We the people") are exempt from this rule and they can teach that a god named Romelon made humans out of grape jelly if they like.
Another point I wanted to make is that religion already DOES try to interfere with lawmaking. George W. Bush wanted to make an ammendment to the Constitution prohibiting gay marriage (despite the fact that the Constitution is supposed to GIVE freedoms to "We the People", not take them away) and banning gay marriage has been a fairly constant Conservative platform for a while. The thing is that it's nothing BUT a religious intervention as there's no known harm caused by gay marriage and the only major source of objections to it is Christianity. Luckily our Supreme Court is there to put a stop to that even if a law is passed, but I hope you're not one of those hypocrites who bitches about Constitutional violations when you think it's against you and supports them when it's against someone like gays.
Here.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html
Now educate yourself, you pointy-headed douche. My brother has a PhD in psychology, but that doesn't qualify me to hang out a shingle and practice medicine. People who are actually educated in these matters disagree with your opinion, so I would have to say it is, or you are, defective, (or both).
You really don't get it do you the Constitution limits government only not the people so it can be taught anywhere in school because the school makes no laws.
You were right up to the word "so". Private individuals and churches can certainly promote all the religion they want on their own property and their own time. In fact, the First Amendment guarantees that by the "free exercise" clause. But public schools are "government" and the teachers are government employees within the meaning of the 1st and 14th Amendments; so promoting your religion in public schools is an illegal government establishment of religion. Ask your SIL to explain "McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71" (1948).
Something like a teacher keeping a Bible in the classroom for his own personal use raises a conflict between the establishment and free exercise clauses that has to be resolved in court based on the circumstances of what the teacher actually did with the Bible while on duty. The court will probably ask why it has to be on his desk instead of a drawer if it's solely for his own use on his own time. Posting religious artwork is another matter. The walls of the school belong to the school, not the teacher; and unless the teacher can make a case for allowing it under the "reasonable accommodation" principle, it's probably illegal.
Another fundie trying to inflate weak, ill informed ideas with an impenitrable wall of words.
Oh, by the way, typing a few things in BIG CAPITAL LETTERS just lets everyone know you're a DOUCHE BAG!
"I live in Finland, always on top in PISA evaluation and we have mandatory religious teaching."
I would posit your religious teaching doesn't include:
* The Rapture will happen any day now.
* God created the universe in six 24-hour days, and therefore the teaching of evolution leads the unrighteous to eternal hellfire.
* Homosexuals are abominations unto the Lord, and in a truly Godly society they would be put to death unless they accept Jesus Christ into their hearts and turn aside from their sodomite ways.
* All non-Christians are servants of Satan, including liberals.
I could go on, but I'm making myself sick.
"We the people" is from the Declaration of Independence. Although the Declaration is an important document in the history of the United States, it does not have the force of law behind it. The document that does have the force of law behind it, is the Constitution, which guarantees that people have the right to practice religion however they see fit. I read it in such a way, as many others do, that freedom of religion includes freedom from religion.
Education, it's like light. Ignorance is like darkness.
As crazy as this guy is, his main premise is correct: the 1st Amendment only places limits on Congress. HOWEVER, it is the 14th Amendment that applies the Bill of Rights (except the 7th Amendment) to the states. A state government has no more of a right to establish a religion than it does to impede on your right to free speech.
Yes, the 1st amendment limits the government AND government employees. Public schools are funded BY the government, and as such, teachers are in fact government employees, and therefore are not allowed to publicly endorse a given religion while serving as government employees. Proselytize on your own time, basically.
"The Church can and does intercede...by freely helping the down and out" By railing against health care and sex ed and welfare and anything else that could actually HELP people in the lower echelons of society?
The Danbury letters don't enter into it: the 1st amendment and the Treaty of Tripoli do a good enough job on their own.
#1127597
The L
I also giggle when I think of the possibility of, say, Zoroastrianism becoming the state-sponsored religion.
Or the Church of Hyrule.
Bet the fundies would be all for separation of church and state then...
ME: HYRULE... BECAUSE IT "RULES". XD
I FOR ONE AM ALL FOR THE CHURCH OF HYRULE BEING TAUGHT!!! LMFAO I LOVE ZELDA! OH GREAT GOLDEN GODDESSES.... HELP ME TO FIND THE TRIFORCE... AMEN. HAHAHAHA
In Sweden we also have mandatory religion classes in school. During these classes we learn about all the main religions in the world, in a fairly unbiased way.
Not completely unbiased, of course, as most people here are Christian, sort of. It's more of a cultural thing than a religious thing, though.
As far as I know, the school is a working place for teachers. In a working place, the people in charge decides what can and can't be put on walls or kept out on display. If the one in charge of public schools, i.e. the government, don't want Bibles or Jesus posters displayed, then their employees must follow that.
This is valid for all working places. If the owner of a car repair shop prohibits nude posters on the walls, the right of the employees has not been violated. The owner owns the walls too, he or she has the last say in the matter.
Easy-peasy.
@shockmeshockmeshockme:
I actually came up with the idea of the CoH as a Poe site, but never got around to writing the actual "scriptures." If you'd like to write up a summary of one of the Zelda games in a "Biblical" style, get back to me. ;)
You really don't get it do you the Constitution limits government only not the people
The government is the people. Well, it was supposed to be, anyway.
Okay, and while you're pushing your religion, the Catholic's pushing their version, the Jew his, the Muslim hers, and the Buddhist is trying to explain it's all an illusion, the teacher can't teach anything.
@Mudak:
"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death."
Well said. *thumbs up*
@The L:
"I also giggle when I think of the possibility of, say, Zoroastrianism becoming the state-sponsored religion. Or the Church of Hyrule. Bet the fundies would be all for separation of church and state then..."
Yeah, I bet they'd freak out. Never mind that most of today's mainstream religions probably originated from Zoroastrianism. They would totally disregard that just as they disregard all similarities between their own religion and other mainstream religions. So deluded! ><
@Priestling:
"Hey, if the Church of Hyrule results in letting me transform into a wolf with badass Twilight powers, sign me up!"
I never thought I'd say this to an online compatriot, but DIAF. Twilight is the worst series of the 21st century.
@NoriMori: Apparently you were sent as a sign that DIAF is become a curse too lightly used.
And seriously, even I understood that, and I'm a non-gamer. Zelda reference. And also seriously, even badly written superpowers would be cool to have, right...? Okay, maybe not. Either way, the internet makes people into such jerks if we're not careful.
Meanwhile...martib has a major problem with one of his postulates and it's already been pointed out. State schools are government.
What I don't get, is how fundies think they can make logical arguments when, 1. they don't think logically, and, maybe more importantly, 2. they have no grasp of proper grammar.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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