W. Quantrill #racist

W. Quantrill #racist niggermania.net

The legal system seems to ignore the fact that niggers and nigresses are genetically programmed for group sex. Just like their 'friends with benefits' in da mudderland, the chimpanzee. The sowlette wasn't raped, it was responding to its nature, which is to mate with as many bucks as possible so as to maximize support for its niglet(s) on the way. Or as they say in the modern jungle, "Da baby needs shoes, and Rayvon got da last pair of Nikes for little Rayneesha'...

205 comments

old comment by Haseri

@Hank Well, race has little bit to do with it. The black people in those communities are poor because they are black, and society hasn't caught up to the idea that everyone is equal. The left overs of racism are still around: ethnic minorities still live in the poorest areas and go to the poorest schools, so they can't get good grades, so they can't get good jobs.

True, there are those lucky few who get to be lawers, doctors, POTUS, but a majority of them won't. So, with the goals of the culture they are in (have lots of money and material goods, which is the ultimate goal for all Americans), but without the legitimate means to do so, they have to look at other, less legal means.

@YT: Fuck you, fuck that godawful site you linked to, and fuck the site this quote came from.

Waste of perfectly good biomass, the lot of 'em.

old comment by Haseri

Are we talking modern, or can we use ancient?

Three ancient civilisations from Africa:

Meroë (Modern Sudan c.600 BCE - 35 0CE)
Aksum (Modern Northern Ethiopia c.100 BCE - 1000 CE)
Ghana (c.500 CE - 1300)
And of course, Egypt. Also, we come from the Africa. That's right, your ancestors were black, just like mine.

The point is, YT, race, as I said above, only contributes a little to one's inclination to commit crime. Most crime is caused because of economic factors, as Hank said. And the crimes that gets the most notice? Crimes of the poor. Theft and muggings are amongst the most common crimes. Rape and murder, the examples given in that de-hee-lightful site you pointed us to, are relatively rare crimes and are often crimes of passion that anyone, regardless of class or race, can commit. But why would Chimpout let something like the truth get in the way?

Rich people commit crime as well, mostly for the same reasons as poor people. To get rich. Because western society places great importance on material success, and some people are never happy with what they have. But their crimes don't go reported, because they are hidden away by the powerful, and their punishments are never the death penalties, no matter how many people they end up killing with fraud...

So, what I am saying to you, if you will take anything away from this, is that race does not make one more likely to commit crime. A baby is never born criminal. But it is an unfortunate lasting effect of pre-Civil Rights racism that most black people are poor, and so are in that area of society that has the highest crime rate. If all the black people went back to Africa, you know who would commit crime? Whoever was left in the poorer communities.

old comment by Mister J

Alright YT, I'll bite. The following list is of African empires that, as you requested, were renowned for being "civilised" (I'm going to take that as meaning having a volunteer army, a working civil service and capacity to trade peacefully with other civilisations, even European ones):

Egypt (both ancient and after being part of the Caliphate and other Arab empires thereafter)
Nubia
Carthage
Kongo
Benin
Abyssinia
Mali
Luba

I could name a few others I guess, but what would be the point? With the exception of Abyssinia none of these survived conquest and subsequent colonisation by the European powers (who kinda had a leg-up due to a whole bunch of non-racial reasons, like trade with the Far East during the Medieval period...).

After liberation from colonisation in the mid-20th century virtually all of these were used as either a proxy battlefield between Russia & the West, or were otherwise taken advantage by corporate powers. It's an open secret that the First World deliberately do not want Africa to be anything other than a place for cheap labour and supplies, and actively repress any chance these nations have for independent trade, hence their current poverty.

old comment by Mister J

You do realise that the "superior race" (Western Europe?) were only capable of getting their act together and actually reaching the New World because of technological advances made possible to material and trade with the Middle East?

And why would there be any need for a nation that already had abundant trade links with both Europe and the Far East to even bother going out and exploring as far as the New World? Spain and Portugal only went West because they were looking for a cheaper and quicker way to get spices & silk from the East Indies without the hassle of using the Silk Road, which had all but collapsed after the Mongol Empire faded.

And what the hell have YOU done that warrants any superiority over anyone?

old comment by

"Alright YT, I'll bite. The following list is of African empires that, as you requested, were renowned for being "civilised" (I'm going to take that as meaning having a volunteer army, a working civil service and capacity to trade peacefully with other civilisations, even European ones):

Egypt (both ancient and after being part of the Caliphate and other Arab empires thereafter)
Nubia
Carthage
Kongo
Benin
Abyssinia
Mali
Luba"

With the exceptions of Egypt and Carthage (and perhaps Ethiopia), none of these kingdoms or empires left much in the way of durable and long-term contributions. I understand that this is a pretty leftist website and that many people here are eager to prove their non-racist credentials by belittling the West but I don't think that anybody can honestly deny that, for a variety of reasons, Sub-Saharan Africa has historically lagged behind Europe and Asia.

old comment by D Laurier.

Haseri
Sub Saharan Africa also lacked a native domesticable staple food crop. Without this, they were unble to build stable empires.
Being always on the brink of famine, they could not afford the luxury of a large administrative class (priesthood)... and so could not develop a writing system.
Although they did develop metalurgy and pottery making on their own, they could never get past the point of slash and burn agriculture.
Those few sub saharan states that DID last... were built on fishing and trade. And even these were not able to withstand colonialism by white men with guns.

It was not untill white masters imported maize and rice, that sub saharan peoples had staple crops that would grow in most places.
(note that those white masters were equaly unable to find a native plant that could reliably support civilization building)

old comment by Vox

"With the exceptions of Egypt and Carthage (and perhaps Ethiopia), none of these kingdoms or empires left much in the way of durable and long-term contributions."

Nubia/Kush, Axum and the Nok Civilization were some of the earliest civilizations to discover metalworking and the blast furnace as well as written language. Nubia may have even introduced the domesticated crop, irrigation and using animals for beasts of burden for farming to the world. Nubia and Egypt are two of the earliest civilizations, along with China, to introduce the scaffold and multi-story engineering to the world. Nubia and Egypt also introduced Geometry and Calculus from which the Greek civilization self-admittedly borrowed.

The medieval Swahili Kingdoms and city-states along the costs of East Africa and the Great Zimbabwe Civilization traded with Arabia, Persia, China and India and eventually the Dutch and Portuguese. One of the city-states in what's now Kenya which was a port trading city gave sea directions to Vasco da Gama when he became lost. They were also visited and recorded by the great explorer ibn Battuta and Zheng He.

The Mali Empire was one of the oldest medieval civilizations to engage in astronomy and has one of the world's oldest and vastest libraries. It also had one of earliest attempts at transoceanic travel with the fleet of Mansa Musa in the early 14th century.

old comment by

"Nubia/Kush, Axum and the Nok Civilization were some of the earliest civilizations to discover metalworking and the blast furnace as well as written language. Nubia may have even introduced the domesticated crop, irrigation and using animals for beasts of burden for farming to the world."

"Earliest"? According to wikipedia, Kush was founded circa 1,000BC and Axum circa 100BC. Metalworking and writing are attested in the Near East and many other parts of the world well before that. I have done a quick research and it doesn't seem that the Nok culture of Nigeria ever developed a writing system.

"Nubia and Egypt are two of the earliest civilizations, along with China, to introduce the scaffold and multi-story engineering to the world. Nubia and Egypt also introduced Geometry and Calculus from which the Greek civilization self-admittedly borrowed. "

Egypt wasn't a sub-saharan civilization.

"The medieval Swahili Kingdoms and city-states along the costs of East Africa and the Great Zimbabwe Civilization traded with Arabia, Persia, China and India and eventually the Dutch and Portuguese. One of the city-states in what's now Kenya which was a port trading city gave sea directions to Vasco da Gama when he became lost. They were also visited and recorded by the great explorer ibn Battuta and Zheng He.

How is that particularly impressive other than by local standards? Much of Europe and the Mediterranean world (not to mention Asia) are literally covered in ancient monuments and ruins. And the vikings actually discovered the New World in the early Middle Ages.

old comment by Vox

"And the vikings actually discovered the New World in the early Middle Ages."

Do you realize how big the fleet of Abu Bakr II was? It was one of the largest naval fleets in the world in the 13th/14th century.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1068950.stm

The Vikings made it to Nova Scotia and Canada by the 11th century CE because they didn't have as far to travel (they had Iceland and Greenland as stopovers) and the waters of the North Atlantic are much calmer than the waters of the South Atlantic. However, the Vikings never colonized the New World.

Like Mali the Chinese navy also tried to reach the New World in the 13th and 14th century and failed.

That wasn't done until later by the Spanish with the help of new Chinese, Middle Eastern and African technology they gained access to by the 15th and 16th century.

old comment by Vox

""Earliest"? According to wikipedia, Kush was founded circa 1,000BC and Axum circa 100BC. Metalworking and writing are attested in the Near East and many other parts of the world well before that."

I should have been more specific. There is evidence of copper-working that far back in parts of the Middle East and South Asia but it was mostly with copper. Smelting iron doesn't go quite that far back. Smelting Iron in Africa goes as far back as the 2nd millennium BCE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ferrous_metallurgy

"I have done a quick research and it doesn't seem that the Nok culture of Nigeria ever developed a writing system."

I was actually referring to Egypt, Kush and Axum but I should have differentiated. Mali has one of the world's oldest constitutions.

"Egypt wasn't a sub-saharan civilization."

True, but black people aren't limited to sub-Saharan Africa. Some of the Egyptians were black and even today some people in North Africa are black. Such as the Tuareg, the Afar, the Tigray and the Haratin/Bafour.

"How is that particularly impressive other than by local standards? Much of Europe and the Mediterranean world (not to mention Asia) are literally covered in ancient monuments and ruins."

So is Africa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Africa

And there are other sites not listed as reserves yet by UNESCO. Such as Mombasa, Thulamela, Mapungubwe, Mopti, the Benin City, the ruins and Pyramids of Meroe and Napata, the ruins of Axum, the Obelisk of Axum, etc.

old comment by Vox

"And the vikings actually discovered the New World in the early Middle Ages."

Do you realize how big the fleet of Abu Bakr II was? It was one of the largest naval fleets in the world in the 13th/14th century.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1068950.stm

Like Mali the Chinese navy also tried to reach the New World in the 13th and 14th century and failed.

That wasn't done until later by the Spanish with the help of new Chinese, Middle Eastern and African technology they gained access to by the 15th and 16th century.

old comment by

"I should have been more specific. There is evidence of copper-working that far back in parts of the Middle East and South Asia but it was mostly with copper. Smelting iron doesn't go quite that far back. Smelting Iron in Africa goes as far back as the 2nd millennium BCE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ferrous_metallurgy "

According to your own source, the earliest evidence of smelting iron is found in the Near East and India.

"True, but black people aren't limited to sub-Saharan Africa. Some of the Egyptians were black and even today some people in North Africa are black. Such as the Tuareg, the Afar, the Tigray and the Haratin/Bafour. "

The overwhelming majority of Egyptians and North Africans are not black. There are some native blacks in the southernmost part of Egypt and some Egyptians who are partly descended from slaves, but the peoples that you cite live either in the Sahara or below it.

"So is Africa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Heritage_Sites_in_Africa

This list contains a disproportionate number of Roman or Arab ruins and monuments that are situated in the Maghreb or Egypt. A lot of the Heritage Sites in the Sub-Saharan part of the continent are either national parks or colonial-era buildings. I have also noticed that a good number of the city-states on the African east coast were actually founded by Arabs or Persians.

old comment by

"Do you realize how big the fleet of Abu Bakr II was? It was one of the largest naval fleets in the world in the 13th/14th century.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1068950.stm "

All the evidence that you have is the word of an obscure scholar? I'm saying that the expedition never took place but you have to keep in mind that medieval texts are often full of inflated numbers and exaggerations.

"The Vikings made it to Nova Scotia and Canada by the 11th century CE because they didn't have as far to travel (they had Iceland and Greenland as stopovers) and the waters of the North Atlantic are much calmer than the waters of the South Atlantic. However, the Vikings never colonized the New World.

Like Mali the Chinese navy also tried to reach the New World in the 13th and 14th century and failed.

That wasn't done until later by the Spanish with the help of new Chinese, Middle Eastern and African technology they gained access to by the 15th and 16th century."

Which African technology precisely?
I'm not trying to belittle any culture, but the fact remain that it was Europeans who launched the Age of Discovery and who deserve credit for that, in spite of your excuses to the contrary.

old comment by Mister J

I think the key point here that's trying to be established is that Western Europe was geographically and geopolitically in the right place at the right time to start the Age of Discovery and to benefit from the consequences.

What YT and the other RSTDT poster-children are trying to say is that this advantage was purely due to white people being intrinsically "better" than the other races and therefore having every right to subjugate Africa because of it. Now clearly there is no conclusive evidence that suggests that race is indeed a factor in a person's intelligence, and the African civilisations were capable of at least matching the West for a little while during the Classical period (some kingdoms even lasting well into the 19th Century). Had the same conditions that affected Europe during the Dark Ages and beyond (Black Death, increased trade with the Far East, increased inter-governmental conflict) existed in Africa during the same time I'm sure that we'd have seen similar development then.

As for why modern-day Africa is still struggling, I think the blame can squarely be put on a combination of unfair trade practices, weak government and cold-war politics. I think what happened to DR Congo and Somalia are really good examples of this.

old comment by Vox

"All the evidence that you have is the word of an obscure scholar? I'm saying that the expedition never took place but you have to keep in mind that medieval texts are often full of inflated numbers and exaggerations."

What are you talking about? The existence of the large Malian navy is widely agreed among scholars to have existed and most scholars agree that some sort of expedition took place. It most likely failed as the majority of the ships sent out never returned.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071207012959/http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/publications/exploration/chapternine.htm

This is simple history.

"The overwhelming majority of Egyptians and North Africans are not black. There are some native blacks in the southernmost part of Egypt and some Egyptians who are partly descended from slaves"

There have been black people in Egypt for as long as there have been humans in Egypt. Back into predynastic times:

http://wysinger.homestead.com/zakrzewski_2007.pdf

Though at one point Egypt was conquered by Nubia (now Sudan) for 100 years. The 25th Dynasty. An mtDNA study of modern Egyptians from the Gurna region near Thebes in Southern Egypt revealed that Eurasian haplogroups represented 61% of the population, with the remainder 39% being of Sub-Saharan origin.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118745570/HTMLSTART?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

old comment by Vox

"Which African technology precisely?"

Trading route maps provided to the Europeans by Africans that allowed them to navigate Africa and the astrolabe to name a couple.

"I'm not trying to belittle any culture, but the fact remain that it was Europeans who launched the Age of Discovery and who deserve credit for that"

The European "Age of Discovery" is simply the most recent leap forward in technology so far. There have been other ages of discovery in past centuries and millennia in other regions and continents. For Europeans the leap of technology that made the "Age of Discovery" possible was the development of navigation technology and the gun. For China before it was the development of large navies and printing type. For West Africa it was the development of central governance.

It's interesting to note, however, that every "age of discovery" was fueled by an increase in trade and contact between civilization. The European "Age of Discovery" was fueled by European contact with Middle East and the Far East and the access to vast amounts of new labor and resources made possible by Colonialism. The Chinese "Age of Discovery" (Tang and Song Dynasties) was similar. So was the "Golden Age of Africa" (1000 CE to 1600 CE) in West Africa and the Horn of Africa (1200 BCE to 500 CE and 500 CE to 1200 CE).

Who knows what tomorrow will hold.

"but the peoples that you cite live either in the Sahara or below it."

The Sahara is part of North Africa.

old comment by

"What are you talking about? The existence of the large Malian navy is widely agreed among scholars to have existed and most scholars agree that some sort of expedition took place. It most likely failed as the majority of the ships sent out never returned.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071207012959/http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/publications/exploration/chapternine.htm"

Again, I do not deny that some sort of expedition probably took place. I was mostly taking issue with the claim that the expedition comprised two thousand ships. That is clearly an exaggeration.

"There have been black people in Egypt for as long as there have been humans in Egypt. Back into predynastic times:

http://wysinger.homestead.com/zakrzewski_2007.pdf

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118745570/HTMLSTART?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0 "

Which pretty much proves my point. Eurasians represent the prevalent ancestry even in the southermost part of the country.

"Trading route maps provided to the Europeans by Africans that allowed them to navigate Africa and the astrolabe to name a couple."

What are you talking about? The astrolabe was already used by the ancient Greeks and the first maps of Africa were mostly produced by Arab explorers and traders.

"The Sahara is part of North Africa."

True. That doesn't change the fact that the Maghreb and Egypt are overwhelmingly non-black, except for Mauritania.

old comment by Vox

"I was mostly taking issue with the claim that the expedition comprised two thousand ships."

2000? Oh, it was supposed to say 200. As in two-hundred. Maybe 2000 if you include in all the river boats and fishing skiffs the Malians used.

"Which pretty much proves my point. Eurasians represent the prevalent ancestry even in the southermost part of the country."

Never contested that. I was simply saying the black presence in Egypt isn't so small as to be negligible. The majority of Egyptians are more closely related to Berbers and West Asian peoples, although some of that has to do with migrations and invasions over the centuries. Including some of the black population's presence (physically and genetically).

"The astrolabe was already used by the ancient Greeks"

The astrolabe has gone through several transformations over the centuries. The ones used during the "Age of Discovery" were more advanced than ones used by the ancient Greeks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe

The ones used during the Age of Discovery/Exploration were more often ones developed by Moors and Northwest Africans.

"and the first maps of Africa were mostly produced by Arab explorers and traders."

Maps of Africa possessed by Arab traders and explorers largely came from their interaction with African coastal traders and shippers. As documented by ibn Battuta. Some of the African coastal traders possessed maps of their trade routes with the Middle East, India and China which they shared with some Portuguese and Dutch explorers. Ironically that knowledge was later used against the Africans and Arabs during Colonialism.

"That doesn't change the fact that the Maghreb and Egypt are overwhelmingly non-black"

I was simply showing that using "North African" to mean "non-black" is something of a misnomer. There are some populations in sub-Saharan Africa who are not black (such as some populations of Berbers).

old comment by

"2000? Oh, it was supposed to say 200. As in two-hundred. Maybe 2000 if you include in all the river boats and fishing skiffs the Malians used."

This number is taken from contemporary accounts. According to your links, the expedition left little direct documentation so I would take it with a grain of salt.
Also, the BBC articles mentions that the boats were actually pirogues, which are small boats rather than ships.

"The astrolabe has gone through several transformations over the centuries. The ones used during the "Age of Discovery" were more advanced than ones used by the ancient Greeks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe

The ones used during the Age of Discovery/Exploration were more often ones developed by Moors and Northwest Africans."

According to wikipedia, the astrolabe was invented by the ancient greeks and further develped by the arabs. I see no mention of Africa here.

"Maps of Africa possessed by Arab traders and explorers largely came from their interaction with African coastal traders and shippers. As documented by ibn Battuta. Some of the African coastal traders possessed maps of their trade routes with the Middle East, India and China which they shared with some Portuguese and Dutch explorers. Ironically that knowledge was later used against the Africans and Arabs during Colonialism. "

Even if I take your word for it, that's a fairly minor point. You are basically saying that the arab and european cartographers and traders who established the maps gathered information from the locals when they explored the coast. Does that really mean that "African technology" can be credited with the Age of Discovery?

"I was simply showing that using "North African" to mean "non-black" is something of a misnomer. There are some populations in sub-Saharan Africa who are not black (such as some populations of Berbers). "

The main point is that the civilizations of North Africa are of berber and arab origins.

old comment by Vox

"This number is taken from contemporary accounts...I would take it with a grain of salt."

There is not that much direct documentation of many of Zheng He's fleet and voyages as well. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

"Also, the BBC articles mentions that the boats were actually pirogues, which are small boats"

I actually looked it up and 2 events are being referred to. A fleet deployed in 1310 which was comprised of 400 ships and a fleet of 2000 smaller pirogues in 1311.

http://www.oneworldarchives.org/700%20to%201516.pdf

*Abbas Hamdani, An Islamic Background to the Voyages of Discovery. Language and Literature" in The Legacy of Muslim Spain (Studien Und Texte Zur Geistesgeschichte Des Mittelalters), 1994, by Salma Khadra Jayyusi

The ones from the first fleet were larger.

"According to wikipedia, the astrolabe was invented by the ancient greeks and further develped by the arabs."

It mentions the "Medieval Islamic World". A lot of the innovations on the astrolabe were done by the Almoravids, of which what is now Mali and Niger were part of.

"Even if I take your word for it, that's a fairly minor point."

This so-called "minor" point is one of the major things that allowed the Europeans to find sea routes to the East and Australia and later conquer Africa. For about 400 years most European expeditions to Africa were limited to the coasts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Africa#European_trade.2C_exploration.2C_and_conquest

Without African navigational aid many of the European explorers became lost and faced starvation. East African kingdoms had been trading with the East for centuries.

You're kind of jumping around here from the 1300s one minute to the European Age of Discovery (1500s-1800s) the next minute. It's best to compare contemporary societies. Some of the points I did have (such as early African civilizations) you barely acknowledged.

old comment by

"There is not that much direct documentation of many of Zheng He's fleet and voyages as well. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I actually looked it up and 2 events are being referred to. A fleet deployed in 1310 which was comprised of 400 ships and a fleet of 2000 smaller pirogues in 1311.

http://www.oneworldarchives.org/700%20to%201516.pdf

The ones from the first fleet were larger. "

To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence of large-scale shipbuilding in this region. I guess it also depends on how you define a "ship" but I frankly doubt that this expedition involved 400 large vessels and left so little evidence. Zheng He himself had less than 100 ships.

"It mentions the "Medieval Islamic World". A lot of the innovations on the astrolabe were done by the Almoravids, of which what is now Mali and Niger were part of."

You are constantly trying to hijack the realizations of the arabs, persians and berbers. Your previous link does not mention a single black african among the important developers of the astrolabe. Mali and Niger were also conquered by the French empire in the late 19th century, does that mean that they should receive credit for every French invention or technological development of the time?

old comment by

"This so-called "minor" point is one of the major things that allowed the Europeans to find sea routes to the East and Australia and later conquer Africa. For about 400 years most European expeditions to Africa were limited to the coasts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Africa#European_trade.2C_exploration.2C_and_conquest

Without African navigational aid many of the European explorers became lost and faced starvation. East African kingdoms had been trading with the East for centuries."

The credit goes primarily to the arabs who designed the maps and founded the cities. Besides, that doesn't account for the fact that Europeans were able to explore the New World.

"You're kind of jumping around here from the 1300s one minute to the European Age of Discovery (1500s-1800s) the next minute. It's best to compare contemporary societies. Some of the points I did have (such as early African civilizations) you barely acknowledged. "

Could you be more specific? Unless I'm mistaken it was you who dragged these earlier cultures into the discussion.

"Primarily but not entirely. Sudan is mostly black and considered part of North Africa. As is Mauritania. Libya also has a significant black population. Niger and Mali are sub-Saharan but have a significant Berber population. "

I should have been clearer. By North african civilizations I was primarily referring to the states of the Mediterranean coast.

You mentioned Sudan. I also find it interesting that the indigenous parts of the country have historically been dominated by the arabized populations of the north.

old comment by Vox

"To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence of large-scale shipbuilding in this region."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/4chapter3.shtml

"I guess it also depends on how you define a "ship" but I frankly doubt that this expedition involved 400 large vessels and left so little evidence. Zheng He himself had less than 100 ships."

I doubt they were they size of Zheng He's ships.

"You are constantly trying to hijack the realizations of the arabs, persians and berbers"

The Almoravids were not Persians. Some were Mauritanian which had a large black population. As also accounted by in contemporary European documentation of Moorish contact with Europe. As well as other independent documentation of Mauritania's ethnic demographics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precolonial_Mauritania#Sudanic_empires_and_kingdoms

"Mali and Niger were also conquered by the French empire in the late 19th century, does that mean that they should receive credit for every French invention or technological development of the time?"

Where did I say Africa should be credited with all or most European technological innovations and inventions?

old comment by Vox

"Besides, that doesn't account for the fact that Europeans were able to explore the New World."

The exploration of the New World wouldn't have been possible without some of the tools European explorers gained access to with increased trading with the East and Moorish peoples. Why do you think Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands weren't able to explore the New World 2 centuries earlier?

"Could you be more specific? Unless I'm mistaken it was you who dragged these earlier cultures into the discussion."

I have mentioned different civilizations from different time periods but I try to avoid comparing them. It's not fair to compare civilizations centuries apart. Even within the same region. That's why I talked about the Almoravids in lieu of the European Age of Discovery. The height of the Mali Empire was from the 1100s to the mid-1400s. During that time most of Western Europe was not capable of the things it achieved during the Age of Discovery (1500s to 1800s). The last part of the Age of Discovery overlaps with the Industrial Revolution, which shouldn't be compared to medieval civilizations.

As for the medieval Islamic world mentioned earlier I should note that the Mali Empire and the cities of Timbuktu and Djenne were a significant hub of the old medieval Islamic world.

"You mentioned Sudan. I also find it interesting that the indigenous parts of the country have historically been dominated by the arabized populations of the north."

In more recent centuries. In past millennia the "indigenous" civilizations sometimes conquered their neighbors to the north. Such as the Nubian conquest of Egypt and even lands as far north as Israel and Jordan. Which is mentioned in the Old Testament as the domination of Judea by the "Midianites".

old comment by

"Who says Arabs designed most of the maps?"

"There are no East African cities that were founded by Arabs. There has never been a significant Arab presence in East Africa other than coastal traders and religious travelers.

East African Swahili coastal cities are Islamic-influenced but the builders and inhabitants of the cities were native Africans. Many who had converted to Islam due to contract with Arab maritime merchants. It's not like Arabs built cities in sub-Saharan Africa and then left. "

I don't claim to know the history of every East African city, but Zanzibar for example was founded by Persian merchants and later ruled by the Portuguese and the Arabs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/4chapter3.shtml

This link only cites the exact same reference as the previous ones.

"The Almoravids were not Persians. Some were Mauritanian which had a large black population. As also accounted by in contemporary European documentation of Moorish contact with Europe. As well as other independent documentation of Mauritania's ethnic demographics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precolonial_Mauritania#Sudanic_empires_and_kingdoms "

The wiki link about the astrolabe that you provided lists a number of islamic scholars who further developed this instrument. The list includes people of Arab, Indian or Persian extraction but not a single black african.

"Where did I say Africa should be credited with all or most European technological innovations and inventions? "

You are saying that the astrolabe used by the europeans was an african technology because an 11th-century Islamic dynasty conquered parts of the Sahel. That's pretty wild.

old comment by

"The exploration of the New World wouldn't have been possible without some of the tools European explorers gained access to with increased trading with the East and Moorish peoples. Why do you think Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands weren't able to explore the New World 2 centuries earlier? "

Spain and Portugal were still fighting to retake the Iberian Peninsula from the muslims 2 centuries earlier.
I agree that europeans benefited from their contacts with other regions of the world. I completely disagree that black Africa provided any technology.

"I have mentioned different civilizations from different time periods but I try to avoid comparing them. It's not fair to compare civilizations centuries apart. Even within the same region. That's why I talked about the Almoravids in lieu of the European Age of Discovery. The height of the Mali Empire was from the 1100s to the mid-1400s. During that time most of Western Europe was not capable of the things it achieved during the Age of Discovery (1500s to 1800s). The last part of the Age of Discovery overlaps with the Industrial Revolution, which shouldn't be compared to medieval civilizations.

As for the medieval Islamic world mentioned earlier I should note that the Mali Empire and the cities of Timbuktu and Djenne were a significant hub of the old medieval Islamic world. "

Many Medieval European kingdoms and republics of the time were very advanced and left ample archeological and literary evidence of that.

"In more recent centuries. In past millennia the "indigenous" civilizations sometimes conquered their neighbors to the north. Such as the Nubian conquest of Egypt and even lands as far north as Israel and Jordan. Which is mentioned in the Old Testament as the domination of Judea by the "Midianites". "

Black Nubians invaded Jordan? What the hell are you talking about?

old comment by Vox

"I don't claim to know the history of every East African city, but Zanzibar for example was founded by Persian merchants and later ruled by the Portuguese and the Arabs."

True. Zanzibar was inhabited quite late in human history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zanzibar

"The wiki link about the astrolabe that you provided lists a number of islamic scholars who further developed this instrument. The list includes people of Arab, Indian or Persian extraction but not a single black african."

In the Islamic world the term "Arab" is also a political and cultural word as well as ethnic. Some Berbers refer to themselves as "Arabs" as do some black Africans in the Sudan (such as the Janjaweed).

Only 3 Europeans are listed on the same page as innovators of the astrolabe. Almost all of the innovations on it after ancient times on the page are accredited to individuals from the Islamic world.

"You are saying that the astrolabe used by the europeans was an african technology because an 11th-century Islamic dynasty conquered parts of the Sahel. That's pretty wild."

Islam is not a race or ethnicity. For instance there were various Islamic Caliphates, Jihads and Sultanates that took over parts of Africa between 1100 CE and 1900 CE that were black. Such as the Funj Sultanate of Sennar and the Sokoto Caliphate. The Almoravids weren't an ethnic group. It was a multi-ethnic civilization. They ranged from white-looking to outright black.

old comment by Vox

"I agree that europeans benefited from their contacts with other regions of the world. I completely disagree that black Africa provided any technology."

Those trade route maps provided by Swahili sailors and traders allowed the Europeans to traverse many of the seas. Pretty handy. Not to mention some of the "Moorish" interaction with Europe during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance Age was black. As noted by various European historians at the time. Some contemporary Europeans even referred to blacks as "moors" and "blackamoors".

Technology is just one aspect. Not even getting into the economic and logistical benefits of European gaining increased contact with the outside world.

"Many Medieval European kingdoms and republics of the time were very advanced and left ample archeological and literary evidence of that."

No offense but during the 1100s to 1400s a lot of Western Europe was backwards compared to some civilizations outside of Europe. The most advanced civilizations in Europe I can think of at that time were the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire was more comparable to contemporary powerful and advanced civilizations like China, India, Arabia, Persia and Mali at the time. For example the Mali Empire between 1100 CE to 1400 CE was more militarily powerful and possibly more technologically advanced than the British Isles and Scandinavia at the time. Not so by the 1600s and 1700s.

But not just Western Europe was backwards. A lot of Southern Africa, North Asia and parts of the Americas was backwards at that time as well.

"Black Nubians invaded Jordan? What the hell are you talking about?"

The maximum extent of the Nubian Empire in the 8th and 7th century BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_dynasty_of_Egypt

As you can see the Nubian Empire at the time reached as far north as Tyre into Lebanon and part of Jordan.

old comment by

"In the Islamic world the term "Arab" is also a political and cultural word as well as ethnic. Some Berbers refer to themselves as "Arabs" as do some black Africans in the Sudan (such as the Janjaweed). "

So your argument rests on the assumption that at least some of these arabs were actually black africans even though you don't have any evidence of that? Not to mention the fact that most of the inventors listed lived far outside of NW Africa.

"Only 3 Europeans are listed on the same page as innovators of the astrolabe. Almost all of the innovations on it after ancient times on the page are accredited to individuals from the Islamic world. "

Europeans invented the astrolabe in the first place.

"Islam is not a race or ethnicity. For instance there were various Islamic Caliphates, Jihads and Sultanates that took over parts of Africa between 1100 CE and 1900 CE that were black. Such as the Funj Sultanate of Sennar and the Sokoto Caliphate."

These people have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand.

"The Almoravids weren't an ethnic group. It was a multi-ethnic civilization. They ranged from white-looking to outright black. "

You still haven't provided any evidence that blacks were responsible for "a lot" of technological developments of the time.

"Those trade route maps provided by Swahili sailors and traders allowed the Europeans to traverse many of the seas. Pretty handy. Not to mention some of the "Moorish" interaction with Europe during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance Age was black. As noted by various European historians at the time. Some contemporary Europeans even referred to blacks as "moors" and "blackamoors"."

Technology is just one aspect. Not even getting into the economic and logistical benefits of European gaining increased contact with the outside world. "

I have found a good number of names of famous cartographers from Persia or the Middle East. So far I haven't found a single black among them.

old comment by

"No offense but during the 1100s to 1400s a lot of Western Europe was backwards compared to some civilizations outside of Europe. The most advanced civilizations in Europe I can think of at that time were the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire was more comparable to contemporary powerful and advanced civilizations like China, India, Arabia, Persia and Mali at the time. For example the Mali Empire between 1100 CE to 1400 CE was more militarily powerful and possibly more technologically advanced than the British Isles and Scandinavia at the time. Not so by the 1600s and 1700s. "

How can you reasonably compare Mali to China or the Indian states in terms of influence and technology? Medieval France conquered parts of the Near East and built cathedrals, huge abbeys and fortified cities. Venice and the other Italian city-states traded witht the world and built fortresses along their trade routes and palaces in Italy. I could post a long list of historical monuments from the Middle Ages but I'm sure you an look it up by yourself. By comparison, the buildings in Timbuktu are of simple design and mostly made of sticks and dried mud.

"The maximum extent of the Nubian Empire in the 8th and 7th century BCE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_dynasty_of_Egypt

As you can see the Nubian Empire at the time reached as far north as Tyre into Lebanon and part of Jordan. "

Didn't the Nubians originate from Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan?

old comment by Vox

"So your argument rests on the assumption that at least some of these arabs were actually black africans even though you don't have any evidence of that?"

The Islamic world stretched(s) from Arabia into southern Europe and Southern Spain into North and West Africa, the Horn of Africa and into Central Asia and India. One of most vast (in terms of manuscripts) centers of knowledge in the medieval Islamic world was Sankore of Mali (some historical Malian scientists and scholars are listed on the page):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankore_Madrasah

"Europeans invented the astrolabe in the first place."

The types used during the Age of Discovery were mostly Islamic in origin.

"These people have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand."

You said:

"You are saying that the astrolabe used by the europeans was an african technology because an 11th-century Islamic dynasty conquered parts of the Sahel. That's pretty wild."

As if "Islamic dynasty" meant non-black.

"You still haven't provided any evidence that blacks were responsible for "a lot" of technological developments of the time."

Those trade route maps were a pretty big contribution. A somewhat lesser contribution I found out recently was the cultivation of a type of wheat used in some Italian foods. The cultivation of this crop originates from Abyssinia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durum_wheat

In Brazil African methods of metallurgy and blast furnaces were used into the 19th century.

"I have found a good number of names of famous cartographers from Persia or the Middle East. So far I haven't found a single black among them"

Some of this Persian and Arabian cartographic knowledge was gained through contact and trade with the Swahili trade port cities:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page45.shtml

old comment by Vox

"How can you reasonably compare Mali to China or the Indian states in terms of influence and technology? Medieval France conquered parts of the Near East and built cathedrals, huge abbeys and fortified cities. Venice and the other Italian city-states traded witht the world and built fortresses along their trade routes and palaces in Italy. I could post a long list of historical monuments from the Middle Ages but I'm sure you an look it up by yourself."

The Mughal Empire in India at the time and the Ming Dynasty of China were more far-reaching and technologically advanced than medieval France and Italy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Sultanate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_Dynasty

I think the Byzantine Empire was more comparable to medieval China and India in terms of power, technology and influence. The Byzantine Empire was the most advanced place in Europe at the time.

"By comparison, the buildings in Timbuktu are of simple design and mostly made of sticks and dried mud."

Being made of mud brick doesn't mean they're backwards or simple. The Mali/Songhay empire was one of North Africa's main trading partners and later military rivals. It was revered by both European and Arabic/Berber explorers and scholars alike.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071207012959/http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/publications/exploration/chapternine.htm

http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his311/lectures/17battut.htm

Many contemporary scholars and explorers felt the Mali and Songhay Empires were among the most advanced civilizations of the world at the time.

http://endingstereotypesforamerica.org/mali.html

old comment by Vox

*About the mud brick architecture of Mali and Songhay - that's actually pretty smart. Mud brick lasts a lot longer in deserts than would stone or wood. That's a similar reason why the Egyptians and Nubians didn't make their pyramids out of stone or wood.

"Didn't the Nubians originate from Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan?"

Yes. They originate near the same area where the Egyptians originated from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia#Pre-history

However they are some ethnic differences between the Egyptians and Nubians. The Egyptians are related to both people from the Horn of Africa and the Berbers (and in modern times more closely to the Berbers) whereas the Nubians are more closely related to peoples from the Horn of Africa.

old comment by

"The Islamic world stretched(s) from Arabia into southern Europe and Southern Spain into North and West Africa, the Horn of Africa and into Central Asia and India. One of most vast (in terms of manuscripts) centers of knowledge in the medieval Islamic world was Sankore of Mali (some historical Malian scientists and scholars are listed on the page):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankore_Madrasah

As if "Islamic dynasty" meant non-black."

I think you misunderstood my post. Let me reformulate: What evidence do you have that the arab scholars credited with developing the astrolabe were black?

"Those trade route maps were a pretty big contribution. A somewhat lesser contribution I found out recently was the cultivation of a type of wheat used in some Italian foods. The cultivation of this crop originates from Abyssinia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durum_wheat

In Brazil African methods of metallurgy and blast furnaces were used into the 19th century.

Some of this Persian and Arabian cartographic knowledge was gained through contact and trade with the Swahili trade port cities:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page45.shtml "

So the locals passed on some knowledge about their native land to the cartographers. On top of that we also have some contributions to Italian cuisine and pre-20th century Brazilian metallurgy. That's a little slim, no?

"The Mughal Empire in India at the time and the Ming Dynasty of China were more far-reaching and technologically advanced than medieval France and Italy:"

I never said that medieval France and Italy were more advanced than China or India.

old comment by

"Being made of mud brick doesn't mean they're backwards or simple. The Mali/Songhay empire was one of North Africa's main trading partners and later military rivals. It was revered by both European and Arabic/Berber explorers and scholars alike.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071207012959/http://www.texancultures.utsa.edu/publications/exploration/chapternine.htm

http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his311/lectures/17battut.htm"

Your first link cites many weird stories about blacks and Egyptians travelling to America. The second one specifies that the story of the trip is based on faraway memories and hearsay and is written with the goal of being entertaining. I do not say that Timbuktu was not an important place but I think that many medieval accounts are probably embellished. This not specific to Timbuktu. Marco Polo's tales, for example, were clearly embellished.

"Many contemporary scholars and explorers felt the Mali and Songhay Empires were among the most advanced civilizations of the world at the time.

http://endingstereotypesforamerica.org/mali.html "

endingstereotypesforamerica.org does not really qualifies as a neutral source.

"*About the mud brick architecture of Mali and Songhay - that's actually pretty smart. Mud brick lasts a lot longer in deserts than would stone or wood. That's a similar reason why the Egyptians and Nubians didn't make their pyramids out of stone or wood."

I have read Timbuktu's entry on wikipedia. The major attractions cited are a few mud mosques and madrassas which were built during the 14th and 15th centuries. That is certainly not very impressive compared to what other civilizations built. Iran and many parts of the Middle East have desertic climates and very impressive palaces and mosques or churches. And if you want pictures of complex contemporary West European architecture just type in "Notre Dame de Paris" or "Carcassonne" into google.

Edit: I do NOT say that Timbuktu was not an important place.

old comment by Vox

"I think you misunderstood my post. Let me reformulate: What evidence do you have that the arab scholars credited with developing the astrolabe were black?"

Oh, you're speaking specifically about the astrolabe? I haven't come across black inventors or innovators of the astrolabe but it was used in parts of Africa.

"So the locals passed on some knowledge about their native land to the cartographers."

They knew about the coastline of their continent having sailed it. Not just their own coastline but also of their trade routes to India, Persia and China. There are records in India and China of merchants from East Africa coming to their lands to trade.

http://www.blackjadeworld.com/article2_1.html

"and pre-20th century Brazilian metallurgy. That's a little slim, no?"

Since when is cartography and metallurgy a small deal? You made it sound like a big deal when you mentioned Europeans documenting cartography.

"Your first link cites many weird stories about blacks and Egyptians travelling to America."

Egyptians? It's talking about Malians. The link is a compilation of historian records about the fleet of Mali. It doesn't claim the Mali Empire actually did make it to America. Only records from the Age of Exploration from European historians who were somewhat perplexed as to the origin of some blacks in early colonial Latin America.

"The second one specifies that the story of the trip is based on faraway memories and hearsay and is written with the goal of being entertaining."

It's the records of Berber explorer ibn Battuta. Have you heard of him?

old comment by Vox

"I think you misunderstood my post. Let me reformulate: What evidence do you have that the arab scholars credited with developing the astrolabe were black?"

Oh, you're speaking specifically about the astrolabe? I haven't come across black inventors or innovators of the astrolabe but it was used in parts of Africa.

"So the locals passed on some knowledge about their native land to the cartographers."

http://www.blackjadeworld.com/article2_1.html

"and pre-20th century Brazilian metallurgy. That's a little slim, no?"

Since when is cartography and metallurgy a small deal? You made it sound like a big deal when you mentioned Europeans documenting cartography.

"Your first link cites many weird stories about blacks and Egyptians travelling to America."

"The second one specifies that the story of the trip is based on faraway memories and hearsay and is written with the goal of being entertaining."

It's the records of Berber explorer ibn Battuta. Have you heard of him?

old comment by Vox

"I do say that Timbuktu was not an important place"

Both contemporary and modern scholars would disagree with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbuktu

It contained one of the most vast libraries in the medieval Islamic world and some of the largest mosques. Timbuktu was a hub of medieval Islamic trade and the Mali Empire, the Ghana Empire and the Oyo Empire accounted for around 2/3 of the gold supplied in the gold trade in both the medieval Islamic world and medieval Europe:

Shillington, Kevin. History of Africa, rev, 2nd. ed. New York: Palgrave McMillan, 2005, pp. 92 , ISBN 0-333-59957-8

"but I think that many medieval accounts are probably embellished. This not specific to Timbuktu. Marco Polo's tales, for example, were clearly embellished."

And your scientific or historical evidence ibn Battuta's story is an embellishment?

old comment by Vox

"have read Timbuktu's entry on wikipedia. The major attractions cited are a few mud mosques and madrassas which were built during the 14th and 15th centuries. That is certainly not very impressive compared to what other civilizations built."

UNESCO and all sorts of European, Persian and Arabic scholars (contemporary and modern) felt they were very impressive. Some European scholars a century ago even tried to deny black Africans built them.

"Iran and many parts of the Middle East have desertic climates and very impressive palaces and mosques or churches."

As does Africa. What's "impressive" is a matter of personal tastes but many scholars find these places in Africa pretty impressive. Including many European and Arab scholars from back then. In fact some European scholars from the 18th and 19th century even tried to deny some of these monuments and cities were even built by black Africans and tried, ultimately in vain, to attribute construction of them to Arabs, Persians and Berbers.

"And if you want pictures of complex contemporary West European architecture just type in "Notre Dame de Paris" or "Carcassonne" into google."

And what would make the Notre Dame or the Carcassonne more complex than the Mosque of Djenne or the Rock Hewn Churches of Lalibela in Ethiopia? This sounds like a matter of personal opinion in artistic taste.

old comment by

"Oh, you're speaking specifically about the astrolabe? I haven't come across black inventors or innovators of the astrolabe but it was used in parts of Africa."

Your earlier point was that the astrolabe was an example of black technology transfer to Europeans.

"They knew about the coastline of their continent having sailed it. Not just their own coastline but also of their trade routes to India, Persia and China. There are records in India and China of merchants from East Africa coming to their lands to trade. "

I kind of think that the Persian and Arab cartographers were already well aware of the trade routes to Persia, India and China.

"Since when is cartography and metallurgy a small deal? You made it sound like a big deal when you mentioned Europeans documenting cartography."

Prior to the 19th century, some people in Brazil used metallurgical techniques that African slaves brought with them. All right. Would you call that a major step in the history of metallurgy?

"Egyptians? It's talking about Malians. The link is a compilation of historian records about the fleet of Mali. It doesn't claim the Mali Empire actually did make it to America. Only records from the Age of Exploration from European historians who were somewhat perplexed as to the origin of some blacks in early colonial Latin America. "

I don't really see the connection with my previous point. I thought we left that part of the discussion behind.

old comment by Vox

"I kind of think that the Persian and Arab cartographers were already well aware of the trade routes to Persia, India and China."

While true contemporary documentation speaks of Portuguese and Dutch interaction interacting with Swahili sailors and gaining maps and other materials from them. Sometimes forcibly (later on).

Though it can be said both Persian/Arab and African sources provided them with maps.

"Prior to the 19th century, some people in Brazil used metallurgical techniques that African slaves brought with them. All right. Would you call that a major step in the history of metallurgy?"

For that region of the world. If you want to talk about the history of Metallurgy in general Africa had its own significant part in that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Africa#Metallurgy

"I don't really see the connection with my previous point. I thought we left that part of the discussion behind."

I was rebutting your claim that Timbuktu was not an important city and that Malian civilization was simple.

old comment by

"It's the records of Berber explorer ibn Battuta. Have you heard of him?

And your scientific or historical evidence ibn Battuta's story is an embellishment?"

I am actually referring to the preface. The traveller on whose accounts the story is based didn't take any notes and recounted everything from memory many years after the facts without the possibility of verifying it independently. The fact that the scribe wanted to make the text "stylish" and "entertaining" also makes me think that there probably was some measure of embellishment.

"Both contemporary and modern scholars would disagree with you. "

See above. My previous post contained a typo. Sorry about that.

"UNESCO and all sorts of European, Persian and Arabic scholars (contemporary and modern) felt they were very impressive. Some European scholars a century ago even tried to deny black Africans built them. "

"As does Africa. What's "impressive" is a matter of personal tastes but many scholars find these places in Africa pretty impressive. Including many European and Arab scholars from back then. In fact some European scholars from the 18th and 19th century even tried to deny some of these monuments and cities were even built by black Africans and tried, ultimately in vain, to attribute construction of them to Arabs, Persians and Berbers."

You showed me a list of African World Heritage sites. Overall, Africa has far less sites listed than Europe does and a lot of them are situated in non-black areas of the Maghreb or were built by colonial powers.

old comment by Vox

"I am actually referring to the preface. The traveller on whose accounts the story is based didn't take any notes and recounted everything from memory many years after the facts without the possibility of verifying it independently. The fact that the scribe wanted to make the text "stylish" and "entertaining" also makes me think that there probably was some measure of embellishment."

I doubt it's an embellishment given that other scholars and explorers around the same time said similar things about the region and cities:

http://endingstereotypesforamerica.org/mali.html

http://www.muslimmuseum.org/LegacyOfTibmuktu.aspx

http://www.pbs.org/wonders/Episodes/Epi5/roadto_2.htm

"You showed me a list of African World Heritage sites. Overall, Africa has far less sites listed than Europe"

1) UNESCO is largely European and American-based. That would make sense of why their own cultural heritage sites are so well-documented on their list. They also lump in US and Canadian sites with European ones.

2) It is only in recent decades that scholars, anthropologists and historians have started taking a serious interest in Africa and re-examining past racialist and Eurocentric views on Africa.

There are still sites in Africa that UNESCO has not added to their list yet but could in the future. Off the top of my head I can think of such sites as Mopti, Thulamela, the Obelisk of Axum, the Nubian pyramids, the Benin City ruins, all sorts of sites at capital cities such as Addis Ababa, Mombasa and Mogadishu, etc.

"and a lot of them are situated in non-black areas of the Maghreb"

They're part of Africa too.

"or were built by colonial powers."

Some of the sites in Europe were built by the Ottomans and Mongols.

old comment by Vox

"It's not a matter of artistic opinion. You may think that a mud-brick building is more aesthetically pleasant than a cathedral or a medieval fortress and that's perfectly legitimate, but that doesn't change the fact that the latter are technically more complex."

I think most scholars would disagree that the Pyramids weren't complex to build, and they are mostly composed of mud brick.

Many architects would disagree that using mud, sand and adobe is "primitive". It's quite durable.

http://www.touropia.com/amazing-mud-brick-buildings/

http://traveltips.usatoday.com/mali-africa-tourists-11288.html

Even though there are many rock and metal structures in Africa as well. Some dating back thousands of years.

"Also, the present-day Mosque of Djenne was actually built by the French."

That's not correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Djenn%C3%A9#The_present_mosque

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3336477

"By contrast, Jean-Louis Bourgeois has argued that the French had little influence except perhaps for the internal arches and that the design is "basically African""

old comment by Vox

"I never said that medieval France and Italy were more advanced than China or India."

I have to say I doubt medieval France or Italy were more advanced the medieval Mali/Songhay and Abyssinia either. Mali and Abyssinia were documented in many lands outside of Africa whereas medieval Italy and France were not well-documented or mentioned outside of Europe back then. The Mali Empire was around as large as the entirety of Western Europe and supplied a good percentage of medieval Europe and the Islamic world's gold.

I think the Byzantine Empire was more comparable in power and technological advancement in medieval times to Mali or Abyssinia and India and China.

old comment by

"For that region of the world. If you want to talk about the history of Metallurgy in general Africa had its own significant part in that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Africa#Metallurg"

All right, I'll trust you. African slaves used techniques imported from their homeland in the plantations of pre-industrial Brazil. This did not exactly change the face of Western Civilization.

"I doubt it's an embellishment given that other scholars and explorers around the same time said similar things about the region and cities:

http://endingstereotypesforamerica.org/mali.html

http://www.muslimmuseum.org/LegacyOfTibmuktu.aspx

http://www.pbs.org/wonders/Episodes/Epi5/roadto_2.htm "

These links mention the fact that Timbuktu was a hub for the trade in African gold, salt and slaves. That's not unimportant but saying that Mali had an influence and legacy comparable to China is an exaggeration.

"1) UNESCO is largely European and American-based. That would make sense of why their own cultural heritage sites are so well-documented on their list. They also lump in US and Canadian sites with European ones.

2) It is only in recent decades that scholars, anthropologists and historians have started taking a serious interest in Africa and re-examining past racialist and Eurocentric views on Africa.

I could list hundreds of remarkable European buildings, cathedrals and castles that are not part of the list. The Louvres palace in France or the Prague astronomical clocktower are not included for instance.

"They're part of Africa too. "

That doesn't make them black.

old comment by

"Some of the sites in Europe were built by the Ottomans and Mongols."

I am not aware of any world heritage building built by the Mongol but I could be wrong.

You can substract the Ottoman sites if you want to, that wouldn't change the overall balance much. In the case of black Africa, there wouldn't be much left.

"I think most scholars would disagree that the Pyramids weren't complex to build, and they are mostly composed of mud brick."

Unless I'm mistaken, the pyramids (or at least the big ones) were made of stone.

"Many architects would disagree that using mud, sand and adobe is "primitive". It's quite durable.

http://www.touropia.com/amazing-mud-brick-buildings/

http://traveltips.usatoday.com/mali-africa-tourists-11288.html

Even though there are many rock and metal structures in Africa as well. Some dating back thousands of years. "

I have avoided the word "primitive" because it carries a judgement of value. However, I still maintain that buildings of this kind:

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2113011-a_classic_mud_mosque_in_Timbuktu-Timbuktu.jpg

are technically not as complex as the buildings that I have described above.

"That's not correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Djenn%C3%A9#The_present_mosque

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3336477

"By contrast, Jean-Louis Bourgeois has argued that the French had little influence except perhaps for the internal arches and that the design is "basically African""

What I meant is that the fact that the French quickly had the mosque rebuilt from the ruins partially contradicts your claim that the cultures of the Sahel are not more widely known because the european colonizers attempted some sort of cover-up.

old comment by

"I have to say I doubt medieval France or Italy were more advanced the medieval Mali/Songhay and Abyssinia either. Mali and Abyssinia were documented in many lands outside of Africa whereas medieval Italy and France were not well-documented or mentioned outside of Europe back then. The Mali Empire was around as large as the entirety of Western Europe and supplied a good percentage of medieval Europe and the Islamic world's gold. "

You forget the fact that Europe was much more densely populated. Also, being a provider of raw materials isn't a sign of technological advancement. The boats used were mostly pirogues and the examples of Malian works of art listed by wikipedia are quite simple in their design.

old comment by Vox

"All right, I'll trust you. African slaves used techniques imported from their homeland in the plantations of pre-industrial Brazil. This did not exactly change the face of Western Civilization."

It did for that region of the world until the 19th century.

"That's not unimportant but saying that Mali had an influence and legacy comparable to China is an exaggeration."

It depends on what era. China varied in global importance from era to era. It would also depend on the region. I would say that the Islamic world, including Mali, had more of an impact on medieval Europe than China. Western European contact with China was pretty limited in those days. West and North Africa alone supplied 2/3 of medieval Western Europe's gold (which was an important part of the economy back then).

Now for places like India and Indonesia China was definitely more important than Mali.

"I could list hundreds of remarkable European buildings, cathedrals and castles that are not part of the list. The Louvres palace in France or the Prague astronomical clocktower are not included for instance."

I could go on and on as well about various places of Africa and the rest of the world that aren't listed. Such as the ruins of observatories in Zimbabwe, Mali, Namibia and Sudan and Ethiopia that haven't been included on the list.

The list of Europeans historical sites for UNESCO is more complete though. Western-oriented organizations have only just started looking at documenting African historical sites since the 60s and 70s.

"That doesn't make them black."

Some people in that region of the world are black. Though the majority of that area are not. Turkey is considered by some to be part of Europe even though Turks are not white. Some European sites in the Balkans were created by the Ottomans who were not white.

Africa is still Africa regardless of color just as Europe is still Europe regardless of color.

old comment by Vox

"In the case of black Africa, there wouldn't be much left."

The majority of the sites in Africa are not in North Africa. There are many sites in North Africa that are not listed by UNESCO yet either. Africa has only recently begun to be taken seriously by Western organizations and scholars.

"Unless I'm mistaken, the pyramids (or at least the big ones) were made of stone."

Some parts are but much of the pyramids are made of mud brick and adobe. The exterior of ones in Egypt and Sudan are mostly made of limestone.

"However, I still maintain that buildings of this kind:

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/2113011-a_classic_mud_mosque_in_Timbuktu-Timbuktu.jpg

Are technically not as complex as the buildings that I have described above."

Many architects and constructionists would care to disagree:

http://www.theglobaldispatches.com/articles/mud-brick-architecture-of-yemen--3

Stone and wood are not good to be used everywhere. What's smart is to construct buildings out of materials that last a long time in the environment you construct them in.

old comment by Vox

"contradicts your claim that the cultures of the Sahel are not more widely known because the european colonizers attempted some sort of cover-up."

1) Because the French had Africans rebuild it doesn't mean they saw Africans as inventive. Other French scholars ignored Bouregois and tried to claim the architecture was French or Berber.

2) When did I say anything about a cover-up? I didn't say cultures of the Sahel region are not well-known. In fact I said that Timbuktu was widely known around the Islamic world and even into Persia and India. I said that sub-Saharan Africa was and is not well-studied and that until modern times many European scholars attempted to deny that black Africans even built the ruins of sub-Saharan Africa. Not really a cover-up as they didn't deny the ruins' existence. It was denial because they wanted to believe black Africans are incapable of living beyond Bronze Age means.

Although in the 19th century some Western scholars did try to attribute Malian cities to Berbers.

"You forget the fact that Europe was much more densely populated."

Depends on the region. Western Europe is densely populated. Eastern Europe, not so much. Parts of West Africa and the Horn of Africa are relatively densely populated. Not so much sub-Saharan Africa.

"Also, being a provider of raw materials isn't a sign of technological advancement."

If you control a good part of the world economy that does give you a leg up. No offense but at that time the only part of Europe that was truly widely known outside of Europe was the Byzantine Empire. Mali and Abyssinia were trading partners with lands as far away as China, Persia and India.

old comment by

"It did for that region of the world until the 19th century."

Changed the face of the Americas?

"It depends on what era. China varied in global importance from era to era. It would also depend on the region. I would say that the Islamic world, including Mali, had more of an impact on medieval Europe than China. Western European contact with China was pretty limited in those days. West and North Africa alone supplied 2/3 of medieval Western Europe's gold (which was an important part of the economy back then).

Now for places like India and Indonesia China was definitely more important than Mali."

Mali was part of the Islamic world but that doesn't mean that Mali had much of an impact on Europe, except as a supplier of gold.

"I could go on and on as well about various places of Africa and the rest of the world that aren't listed. Such as the ruins of observatories in Zimbabwe, Mali, Namibia and Sudan and Ethiopia that haven't been included on the list."

I did look up the names that you provided. I couldn't find any pictures of the ruins of Beni city. Mopti is a 19th-century mud-brick town. Thulamela, according to the website of the park, was a local population center with up to 2,000 inhabitants around the 16th century. The pictures that I found show the remains of what appears to be the unmortared walls of a compound. Call me an ethnocentric, but much more advanced cities existed in Europe at the time.

The Obelisk of Aksum is not a site and therefore cannot be included on the list. However, the city of Aksum is listed by the Unesco, just like the Nubian pyramids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aksum#Population_and_services
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jebel_Barkal

old comment by

"The list of Europeans historical sites for UNESCO is more complete though. Western-oriented organizations have only just started looking at documenting African historical sites since the 60s and 70s."

That was 50 to 40 years ago. It's not like the next Angkor Wat or Chichen Itza is still waiting to be discovered in the jungles of the Congo.

I did a rough count and I found between 20 and 30 sites that were built by black cultures, and they are usually less complex than those situated in the non-black parts of Africa. In contrast, Turkey only represents a minor part of the European list, and some of its sites are of greek origin.

"Some parts are but much of the pyramids are made of mud brick and adobe. The exterior of ones in Egypt and Sudan are mostly made of limestone. "

Some mud-brick pyramids exist but most were made of stone.

"Many architects and constructionists would care to disagree:

http://www.theglobaldispatches.com/articles/mud-brick-architecture-of-yemen--3

Stone and wood are not good to be used everywhere. What's smart is to construct buildings out of materials that last a long time in the environment you construct them in."

The mosque is far less complex that the yemenite buildings.

Also, most of these mud buildings have to be partially rebuilt every year after the rainy season. That could explain why there are not that many of them still around.

old comment by

"1) Because the French had Africans rebuild it doesn't mean they saw Africans as inventive. Other French scholars ignored Bouregois and tried to claim the architecture was French or Berber. "

According to the original story, the other scholar didn't like the building and thought that the local administration was responsible for what he saw as a failed design. That's different.

"Depends on the region. Western Europe is densely populated. Eastern Europe, not so much. Parts of West Africa and the Horn of Africa are relatively densely populated. Not so much sub-Saharan Africa. "

You compared Mali and medieval Western Europe. I was just pointing out that, overall, Mali was less densely populated.

"If you control a good part of the world economy that does give you a leg up. No offense but at that time the only part of Europe that was truly widely known outside of Europe was the Byzantine Empire. Mali and Abyssinia were trading partners with lands as far away as China, Persia and India. "

Mali and its successors sent gold and salt up north and didn't do much else until they were destroyed by a Moroccan expedition. The technologies that you cited earlier turned out to be exterior to the region and much of the region's history is known from the accounts of travelers or from oral tradition, which indicates that writing wasn't widespread throughout the country.

old comment by

"Only you seem to feel that way. I haven't come across many scholars, historians, anthropologists, etc. who find the architecture of Mali simplistic.

At that time Mali was more of a world power than Abyssinia despite Abyssinia having architecture you might consider more complex; as Abyssinian construction and architecture was mostly comprised of stone and metal."

Do you think that figure is complex?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Djenne_Terracotta_Archer_%2813th-15th_cent%29.jpg

"There was just one source that said that for about 200 ships of one voyage. There was more than one voyage and more than 200 ships. "

Where are the shipwrecks or the ruins of the big shipyards? There should be plenty of them.

old comment by Vox

"Changed the face of the Americas?"

Now you've shifted the goalposts. You've gone from it having to be of importance to needing to have "changed the face of the Americas". I don't know about the "Americas" but it was important for that region. I would say the contribution of those trade route maps was more significant though.

The discovery of the process for creating carbon steel by the Haya people long before the Europeans was very important but unfortunately on for that region of the world since the European discovery of the process centuries later was independent of the Haya discovery.

"Mali was part of the Islamic world but that doesn't mean that Mali had much of an impact on Europe, except as a supplier of gold."

Not to be offensive but Europe was largely cut off from the world at that point in time. Europe wasn't the hub of world trade and technology in the Middle Ages. The most advanced and influential part of Europe back then was the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire had contact with the Mali Empire and even more with Abyssinia. They spoke highly of them and interacted with each other. Even asking military assistance.

http://www.almhml.com/c/-64025

Mali and Abyssinia were probably more known however in Persia, Arabia and India. Somewhat in China.

"Mopti is a 19th-century mud-brick town."

And? Because it's mud brick doesn't mean it's not an important historical site. Some UNESCO sites are literally just hills and piles of rocks. Like some of the ancient Celtic and Roman sites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant%27s_Causeway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall

"Thulamela, according to the website of the park, was a local population center with up to 2,000 inhabitants around the 16th century"

This town's population probably never exceeded 200 yet it's a UNESCO site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland

old comment by Vox

"That was 50 to 40 years ago."

A lot of African sites have only been added in the past 20-30 yeasr.

"It's not like the next Angkor Wat or Chichen Itza is still waiting to be discovered in the jungles of the Congo."

I noticed you switched regions again to the least populated and least advanced region of Africa. You won't find anything like Chichen Itza or Angkor Wat in pre-modern Scandinavia or parts of central-eastern Europe either (the least advanced regions of Europe before modern times, and still today to a degree).

There are still very amazing and relatively advanced sites that can be found in that region of Africa.

Actually the ancient Benin City had the largest man-made walls on Earth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Africa#Sahelian_9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Benin

There are the Makomati ruins of South Africa (I don't buy they claim they're up to 75,000 years old but they're thousands of years old):

http://www.makomati.org/pages/adams-calendar.php

You can find similar things in the least advanced regions of Europe as well.

"Some mud-brick pyramids exist but most were made of stone."

The pyramids largely consist of mud, clay and adobe with a limestone (a fairly soft and pliable rock) exterior.

old comment by Vox

"The technologies that you cited earlier turned out to be exterior to the region"

I only listed one item so far. As for being exterior something being invented externally is different from usage. Gun powder was developed outside of Europe but Europeans began using it.

"much of the region's history is known from the accounts of travelers or from oral tradition, which indicates that writing wasn't widespread throughout the country."

1) Most of Europe was not literate at that time either. Do you think most peasants, farmers and serfs read as a hobby?

2) You must have skipped over the Sankore University I mentioned more than once. It was one of the most vast libraries in the medieval world containing between 400,000 to 700,000 manuscripts. Much of which is the history of the country.

There was also the Kouroukan Fogua which is one of the world's oldest constitutions. Though knowledge of it was largely spread across the country through griots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouroukan_Fouga

The Mali and Benin Empires at that point in history also had a civil service and a retirement system.

old comment by Vox

"The mosque is far less complex that the yemenite buildings."

According to whom?

"Also, most of these mud buildings have to be partially rebuilt every year after the rainy season. That could explain why there are not that many of them still around."

True. That goes for many regions of the world. That explains why some Roman and Celtic ruins made of wood and types of stone that weather relatively easy are barely still standing. Some have had to be almost completely rebuilt.

"According to the original story, the other scholar didn't like the building and thought that the local administration was responsible for what he saw as a failed design. That's different."

The reconstruction of the building was funded by the French but there are no sources claiming the architecture was designed by the French or that the construction was done by the French. In fact sources both from then and now say the Mosque was rebuilt after its earlier 13th century design.

"Do you think that figure is complex?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Djenne_Terracotta_Archer_%2813th-15th_cent%29.jpg"

1) No more or less complex than Chinese terracotta.

2) What does this figure have to do with the buildings of Abyssinia?

"Where are the shipwrecks or the ruins of the big shipyards? There should be plenty of them."

It depends on what kind of materials they were made of. There's not much left of the Viking shipyards either.

"Mali and its successors sent gold and salt up north and didn't do much else until they were destroyed by a Moroccan expedition."

You say gold like it's something minor. Do you realize how economically important gold was in the middle ages?

Mali was a major trading partner and commercial hub of the medieval Islamic world and traded as far as Byzantine and Persia. It had more an economic impact on the world back then than Abyssinia (whose cities are mostly composed of stone and metal) did.

old comment by

"Now you've shifted the goalposts. You've gone from it having to be of importance to needing to have "changed the face of the Americas". I don't know about the "Americas" but it was important for that region. I would say the contribution of those trade route maps was more significant though.

Go back to my previous posts. I didn't say it was of no importance, I said it was of limited importance. That's one technology among many others that were introduced in the Americas and it was relatively limited in its geographic scope.

"Not to be offensive but Europe was largely cut off from the world at that point in time. Europe wasn't the hub of world trade and technology in the Middle Ages. "

Neither was Mali. And Europe wasn't cut off from the rest of the world, that's plain wrong. The Franks founded several crusader states in the Near East and maintained diplomatic contact with the Mongols in the 13th and 14th centuries. Marco Polo and other traders, missionaries and diplomats visited the Far East and the Mongol empire. Many Italian city-states mantained a network of commercial outposts and fortresses and were actively involved in the trade with Asia.

old comment by

"And? Because it's mud brick doesn't mean it's not an important historical site. Some UNESCO sites are literally just hills and piles of rocks. Like some of the ancient Celtic and Roman sites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant%27s_Causeway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avebury

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall"

The Antonine wall is much older and so is the neolithic site. The Giant's Causeway is a natural monument like a large number of the African sites.

St Kilda is registered both as a natural and cultural site. The village was added because it represents a very peculiar culture. Again, many African sites have been added for the same reasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Togo_Taberma_house_02.jpg

Mopti and Thumela could perhaps qualify as a testimony their respective cultures, but they are not examples of particularly advanced civilizations.

“A lot of African sites have only been added in the past 20-30 yeasr.”

Same thing for Europe.

“I noticed you switched regions again to the least populated and least advanced region of Africa. You won't find anything like Chichen Itza or Angkor Wat in pre-modern Scandinavia or parts of central-eastern Europe either (the least advanced regions of Europe before modern times, and still today to a degree). »

I wasn’t trying to switch regions. I mentioned Congo because both monuments were found in jungles. I probably shouldn’t have because it’s confusing. You can change it to just “It's not like the next Angkor Wat or Chichen Itza is still waiting to be discovered somewhere”.

old comment by

“There are still very amazing and relatively advanced sites that can be found in that region of Africa.

Actually the ancient Benin City had the largest man-made walls on Earth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_Africa#Sahelian_9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Benin »

This article is a list without much internal coherence and was obviously written by someone trying to prove a point. It did a search and it seems that the city proper was enclosed by an 11km earthen rampart built around the 15th century. That’s considerable but that is by no means the biggest city wall ever built. There are bigger stone walls elsewhere. Other sources mention that a bigger network of earthen moats and mud walls now largely gone extended in the countryside and was built over several centuries to delimit or protect the various settlements. That’s different from a contiguous city wall.

http://wysinger.homestead.com/nigeria_benin_city_earthworks.jpg

Some of your sources seem to confuse the two. The wiki article claims that the network was 16,000 km long and that the British largely destroyed it in 1897. I doubt that an expedition of roughly 1,000 soldiers would have been able to do so in less than a year.

“There are the Makomati ruins of South Africa (I don't buy they claim they're up to 75,000 years old but they're thousands of years old):

http://www.makomati.org/pages/adams-calendar.php

You can find similar things in the least advanced regions of Europe as well. »

I did a search but was redirected toward weird afrocentric websites. But anyways there are many very ancient sites in Europe that are not well-known too, and not just in the least advanced regions. The megalithic fields of Carnac and the hill figures of England for instance.

old comment by

“The pyramids largely consist of mud, clay and adobe with a limestone (a fairly soft and pliable rock) exterior. “

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques#Historical_considerations

The most ancient and biggest pyramids are made of stone and mortar. The mud-brick pyramids are more recent and apparently did not withstand the test of time as well as the stone ones.

“According to whom? »

The third picture isn’t dated so it could be a recent building. But it is quite ornate and has a lot of small carvings and decorations.

“The reconstruction of the building was funded by the French but there are no sources claiming the architecture was designed by the French or that the construction was done by the French. In fact sources both from then and now say the Mosque was rebuilt after its earlier 13th century design.”

The same sources state that the original design was largely unknown because the mosque was largely destroyed and that several elements were novel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Djenn%C3%A9#The_present_mosque

But I’m not trying to say that the building isn’t primarily African. My previous point was that the scholar who claimed that the colonial administration was responsible for the design wasn’t motivated by a desire to give them credit. He was actually criticizing them.

“1) No more or less complex than Chinese terracotta.”

Which ones specifically? The terracotta warriors?

“2) What does this figure have to do with the buildings of Abyssinia?”

By “work of art”, I meant any kind of artistic object, not just buildings.

old comment by

“1) Most of Europe was not literate at that time either. Do you think most peasants, farmers and serfs read as a hobby?

There was also the Kouroukan Fogua which is one of the world's oldest constitutions. Though knowledge of it was largely spread across the country through griots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouroukan_Fouga

The Mali and Benin Empires at that point in history also had a civil service and a retirement system.»

I am aware of that. But I have noticed that a lot of the facts listed on Mali’s wiki page are from oral history. Also, it seems that the majority of Timbuktu’s manuscripts are not from the middle ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankore_Madrasah#Scholars_of_Sankor.C3.A9

“And much more advanced cities existed in Africa than Mopti at the time.”

Doesn’t change the fact that Europe was in the middle of the industrial revolution at the time and was decisively ahead of Africa.

old comment by

“It depends on what kind of materials they were made of. There's not much left of the Viking shipyards either.”

Remains of Viking ships have been found, along with Viking settlements outside of Scandinavia. The traditional ships used in West Africa are mostly fishing pirogues and the trade was conducted through the Sahara. To my knowledge there are no examples of Malian settlements overseas.

“You say gold like it's something minor. Do you realize how economically important gold was in the middle ages?

Gold is a raw material. I’m not saying it was not important of course but these exports of gold, salt and slaves alone do not imply advanced knowledge.

“I only listed one item so far. As for being exterior something being invented externally is different from usage. Gun powder was developed outside of Europe but Europeans began using it. »

Gun powder was probably invented in China but Europeans developed much of the modern artillery and firearms.

old comment by Vox

"Go back to my previous posts. I didn't say it was of no importance, I said it was of limited importance."

Producing the major source of metal in the Americas from the 15th to 19th century is at least fairly important.

"That's one technology among many others that were introduced in the Americas and it was relatively limited in its geographic scope."

Brazil was and is one of the most populated countries in the Americas. That wasn't the only country where African methods of iron-making were used prior to the mid-19th century either.

"Neither was Mali."

Supplying 2/3 of the gold for Europe and the medieval Islamic world is quite a big commercial hub. Gold was one of the main commodities in the medieval world. That would make it like a Hong Kong of that time.

"The Franks founded several crusader states in the Near East and maintained diplomatic contact with the Mongols in the 13th and 14th centuries. Marco Polo and other traders, missionaries and diplomats visited the Far East and the Mongol empire."

That is true. However, the Franks were not well known or recorded outside of Europe.

"Many Italian city-states mantained a network of commercial outposts and fortresses and were actively involved in the trade with Asia."

To a degree. There was some commercial activity in Italy with the East in the 1300s and 1400s but it was little recorded in the world at the time. The Byzantine Empire had a much bigger trade with China and the East than Italy at the time.

old comment by Vox

"I am aware of that. But I have noticed that a lot of the facts listed on Mali’s wiki page are from oral history. Also, it seems that the majority of Timbuktu’s manuscripts are not from the middle ages."

It lists most of them as dating between 1200 to 1600 CE. That was the middle ages. Well, the middle ages in Africa lasted until the 17th century. In the 1600s is when Europe started to colonize and received a boost in natural resource pools and labor pools with the gradual conquest of the Americas. Somewhat ironically the 1600s was around the decline of African empires.

"Doesn’t change the fact that Europe was in the middle of the industrial revolution at the time and was decisively ahead of Africa."

Europe was not in the middle of the Industrial Revolution in the 1200s and 1300s CE. The First Industrial Revolution wasn't until the 1700s CE. Europe was almost entirely agrarian at the time just like everywhere else.

old comment by Vox

"I wasn’t trying to switch regions. I mentioned Congo because both monuments were found in jungles. I probably shouldn’t have because it’s confusing. You can change it to just “It's not like the next Angkor Wat or Chichen Itza is still waiting to be discovered somewhere”."

Sorry for misinterpreting that part of your post.

Central Africa is pretty sparsely populated and has always been the least advanced part of Africa. Somewhat similar to how Scandinavia and Northern Europe are to the rest of Europe. Mexico and Cambodia, despite having jungles, are more densely populated and not landlocked like Central Africa.

(Northern Europe isn't landlocked but the northern seas and Arctic Ocean isn't a good source of access to the rest of the world)

"The most ancient and biggest pyramids are made of stone and mortar."

The pyramids of the Americas are mostly made of stone and mortar. The ones of Egypt and Nubia are largely mud, clay and adobe with some limestone and mortar external walls.

"The mud-brick pyramids are more recent and apparently did not withstand the test of time as well as the stone ones."

Depends on the region. The mud pyramids of China didn't stand the test of time well. The ones of Africa (including North Africa) last a long time.

"This article is a list without much internal coherence and was obviously written by someone trying to prove a point."

Most Wiki historical articles are written to prove a point. But the list cites mostly legit sources.

"It did a search and it seems that the city proper was enclosed by an 11km earthen rampart built around the 15th century. That’s considerable but that is by no means the biggest city wall ever built. There are bigger stone walls elsewhere."

I don't where you got that. I did a quick search and easily came upon this.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg16322035.100-the-african-queen.html?page=2

160 km = 11 km?

old comment by Vox

"Other sources mention that a bigger network of earthen moats and mud walls now largely gone extended in the countryside and was built over several centuries to delimit or protect the various settlements. That’s different from a contiguous city wall."

That's what the Great Wall of China originally was before stones were placed over the original earthen and mud walls.

"Remains of Viking ships have been found, along with Viking settlements outside of Scandinavia."

No Viking shipyards have been found but Viking settlements have been found in Greenland. This is the only known Viking site in North America outside of Greenland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows

We don't know how large the Viking ships were for sure because we've never found a Viking shipyard. Just their camps. I wouldn't really expect us to find much left of wooden remains outside of a jungle environment. These are the only remains of Viking ships found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseberg_ship

These ships aren't enormous either. I think it shows that ships the size of the destroyers in Zheng He's fleet aren't necessarily required to cross the ocean. But maybe the Vikings could get away with it because the North Atlantic is relatively calm.

"The traditional ships used in West Africa are mostly fishing pirogues and the trade was conducted through the Sahara."

I never said they traded across the Atlantic. The majority of their boats were fishing boats (it's like that with every country) but no sources say that's all they had.

"To my knowledge there are no examples of Malian settlements overseas."

I never said there were. I don't think they made it overseas. The South Atlantic Ocean was probably too rough for technology back then. I think the Vikings were probably the only people to make it to the Americas before the Spanish, due to having several stopping points (Iceland, Greenland) and calmer seas.

old comment by Vox

"Mopti and Thumela could perhaps qualify as a testimony their respective cultures, but they are not examples of particularly advanced civilizations."

The Picts and Brythonic peoples weren't particularly advanced either but their sites are still preserved as a cultural heritage sites.

Given that we can't see all of what's left of Thulamela we don't know how advanced it was. Most scholars feel it was probably less advanced than Great Zimbabwe though.

"Gold is a raw material. I’m not saying it was not important of course but these exports of gold, salt and slaves alone do not imply advanced knowledge."

While true they also had extensive recorded knowledge of mathematics, art, literature, astronomy (scientists keep finding ancient and medieval observatories in Sudan, Ethiopia, Mali, Nigeria, Benin and even Zimbabwe and South Africa) and architecture. Recorded both locally and by people from other civilizations who visited them.

"I did a search but was redirected toward weird afrocentric websites."

The people who put together that website I linked (http://www.makomati.org/pages/adams-calendar.php) aren't Afrocentrists. Here's a picture of the explorers who discovered the ruins and created the website and book:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BSoKyM1mbj0/SIoU1ZgNGMI/AAAAAAAAASE/3IZBIzrxTyw/s320/DSC00075+%281%29-753239.jpg

Most scientists don't agree that the ruins are 75,000 years old but they're probably at least 2,000 years old. More information continues to come out about the site as scientists have only recently began studying it.

"But anyways there are many very ancient sites in Europe that are not well-known too, and not just in the least advanced regions. The megalithic fields of Carnac and the hill figures of England for instance."

I know. I think sites like that should be added too.

old comment by

“Producing the major source of metal in the Americas from the 15th to 19th century is at least fairly important.
Brazil was and is one of the most populated countries in the Americas. That wasn't the only country where African methods of iron-making were used prior to the mid-19th century either. »

African slaves produced the major source of metal in the Americas? Where did you get that?

“Supplying 2/3 of the gold for Europe and the medieval Islamic world is quite a big commercial hub. Gold was one of the main commodities in the medieval world. That would make it like a Hong Kong of that time.”

Timbuktu exported gold, salt and slaves. Hong Kong is mostly a financial center and re-exporter of various goods produced elsewhere, not a producer of raw materials.

“That is true. However, the Franks were not well known or recorded outside of Europe.”

The Franks repelled several Arab and Berber invasions in Western Europe and then occupied parts of the Middle East for about two centuries. The Islamic world was well aware of them.

“To a degree. There was some commercial activity in Italy with the East in the 1300s and 1400s but it was little recorded in the world at the time. The Byzantine Empire had a much bigger trade with China and the East than Italy at the time.”

"Some commercial activity" is sort of an understatement:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice#Expansion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Genoa#13th_century

You can also take a look at the palaces and cathedrals built by the wealthy families of the time.

old comment by

“It lists most of them as dating between 1200 to 1600 CE. That was the middle ages. Well, the middle ages in Africa lasted until the 17th century. In the 1600s is when Europe started to colonize and received a boost in natural resource pools and labor pools with the gradual conquest of the Americas. Somewhat ironically the 1600s was around the decline of African empires. »

It says “many of them”, which doesn’t imply the majority.

“Europe was not in the middle of the Industrial Revolution in the 1200s and 1300s CE. The First Industrial Revolution wasn't until the 1700s CE. Europe was almost entirely agrarian at the time just like everywhere else.”

And Mopti was built in the 19th century.

“The pyramids of the Americas are mostly made of stone and mortar. The ones of Egypt and Nubia are largely mud, clay and adobe with some limestone and mortar external walls.”

I gave you a wiki link about the Egyptian pyramids. It says that the largest ones, including the Great Pyramid, are made of stone.

“I don't where you got that. I did a quick search and easily came upon this.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg16322035.100-the-african-queen.html?page=2

160 km = 11 km?”

It says that the system of walls defended the kingdom’s land. That’s not the walls of the city proper. It’s more similar to the Hadrian wall or the Roman limes.

The figure that I cited is from the wiki page of the Benin Kingdom.

“That's what the Great Wall of China originally was before stones were placed over the original earthen and mud walls.”

This one visibly didn’t go past the earthen/mud stage.

old comment by

“No Viking shipyards have been found but Viking settlements have been found in Greenland. This is the only known Viking site in North America outside of Greenland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseberg_ship

I never said they traded across the Atlantic. The majority of their boats were fishing boats (it's like that with every country) but no sources say that's all they had.

Several Viking shipwrecks have been found and the existence of the Viking ships and expeditions are generally well-documented:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skuldelev_ships

Again the Malian traded by land and didn’t even colonize the Cap Verde or Canary islands. To my knowledge there is also no record of naval battles involving Malian fleets or Malian naval expeditions to the Mediterranean or Europe. Again, I’m not saying this to be disagreeable but I find your claim that they had one of the largest and most powerful fleets of the Middle Ages dubious.

old comment by

“The Picts and Brythonic peoples weren't particularly advanced either but their sites are still preserved as a cultural heritage sites.”

You first used the UNESCO list to try to prove that Africa wasn’t historically less advanced that Europe, but a site doesn’t have to be created by an advanced civilization to make it to the list.

“While true they also had extensive recorded knowledge of mathematics, art, literature, astronomy (scientists keep finding ancient and medieval observatories in Sudan, Ethiopia, Mali, Nigeria, Benin and even Zimbabwe and South Africa) and architecture. Recorded both locally and by people from other civilizations who visited them. »

How many great advances in these sectors did they make?

“The people who put together that website I linked (http://www.makomati.org/pages/adams-calendar.php) aren't Afrocentrists. Here's a picture of the explorers who discovered the ruins and created the website and book:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_BSoKyM1mbj0/SIoU1ZgNGMI/AAAAAAAAASE/3IZBIzrxTyw/s320/DSC00075+%281%29-753239.jpg

We’ll see. I’m pretty surprised by the fact that they claim it’s 75,000 years old.

old comment by

“I would contend that overall Africa and Europe were more or less on equal footing (counting both advanced regions like the Byzantine Empire, southern Spain, Italian city-states, the Mali/Songhay Empire, Abyssinia, Makuria, etc.) until the 16th/17th century CE.

This has some backing through a timeline comparison of the average GDP per capitas of the two continents/regions.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/World_GDP_Capita_1-2003_A.D.png »

I don’t know where these numbers come from but they’re probably an educated guesstimate at best. I does show that Europe was ahead by 1500 but I do not think that it makes a lot of sense to lump whole continents together.

I would also point out that many states of Renaissance Europe was already establishing colonial empires, had invented the mechanical printing press, developed artillery and firearms and were starting to decisively push back the Islamic World.

old comment by Vox

"African slaves produced the major source of metal in the Americas? Where did you get that?"

In Brazil. Not all the Americas.

http://books.google.com/books?ei=ScA_TNqOL8L48Abw07mSCw&ct=result&id=ldMtAQAAIAAJ&dq=Basil+Davidson.+The+Search+for+Africa%2C+History%2C+Culture%2C+Politics&q=Brazil#search_anchor

"Timbuktu exported gold, salt and slaves. Hong Kong is mostly a financial center and re-exporter of various goods produced elsewhere, not a producer of raw materials."

Gold is more than a raw material, it's a currency. Hong Kong is a major financial center of the world. That's what I meant. Saying Mali supplying most of that part of the world's gold is about like saying Hong Kong just mostly deals with green fabric and coins.

"The Franks repelled several Arab and Berber invasions in Western Europe and then occupied parts of the Middle East for about two centuries. The Islamic world was well aware of them."

The Arabs and Berbers were aware of peoples in Central Africa as well but didn't have much contact or economic activity with them. The Franks are only mentioned a couple of times here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

old comment by Vox

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice#Expansion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Genoa#13th_century"

This seem to be Genoa's main commercial activity during that time:

"Genoa was far more than a depot of drugs and spices from the East: an essential engine of its economy was the weaving of silk textiles, from imported thread, following the symmetrical styles of Byzantine and Sassanian silks."

Mostly textiles. Not all that huge of a global commercial hub. Venice's main commercial activity at the time was:

"Venice became an imperial power following the Venetian-financed Fourth Crusade, which in 1204 seized and sacked Constantinople and established the Latin Empire."

They financed a short 12-year long empire.

"You can also take a look at the palaces and cathedrals built by the wealthy families of the time."

You can find similar types of castles in Africa. (most experts don't think the mud buildings of Mali and North Africa are primitive but you only seem to acknowledge stone castles):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasil_Ghebbi

http://www.nazret.com/gif/gondar.gif

"It says “many of them”, which doesn’t imply the majority."

It depends. "Many" can mean "most". At the very least it implies a significant amount of them, which would probably mean several thousands or tens of thousands at the least.

"And Mopti was built in the 19th century."

I know. What's your point?

"I gave you a wiki link about the Egyptian pyramids. It says that the largest ones, including the Great Pyramid, are made of stone."

Those are just a few, not the majority. The Great Pyramid might not be able to support its weight if it was made mostly of mud.

old comment by Vox

"It’s more similar to the Hadrian wall or the Roman limes."

I didn't say it was just the city walls.

"The figure that I cited is from the wiki page of the Benin Kingdom."

Hmm. The article gives a different figure.

"This one visibly didn’t go past the earthen/mud stage."

Some of it is made of brick as can be seen from the pieces of it that are left. I don't know exactly how much of it:

http://www.360cities.net/image/the-benin-wall-the-benin-moat-benin-city-nigaria-africa#358.80,14.10,70.0

"Several Viking shipwrecks have been found and the existence of the Viking ships and expeditions are generally well-documented:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skuldelev_ships"

I just agreed with you. We know they had ships but we don't know precisely how many or if these were their biggest ships as no still extant Viking shipyards have been discovered.

The ones I've seen so far though are under 30 meters. Much smaller than the major ships of Zheng He and Christopher Colombus' fleet. (not saying that's necessarily a bad thing)

"Again the Malian traded by land and didn’t even colonize the Cap Verde"

No one knew about that island until the 15th century. Including the Berbers and Europeans.

"or Canary islands."

No, but Africans have visited all sorts of other islands. Such as this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Comore

and Madgascar.

old comment by Vox

"To my knowledge there is also no record of naval battles involving Malian fleets"

They didn't really have anyone to fight with. They were on good terms with their neighbors for the most part.

"or Malian naval expeditions to the Mediterranean or Europe."

They moved some of their military around by sea and water:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200502/the.river.htm

"Again, I’m not saying this to be disagreeable but I find your claim that they had one of the largest and most powerful fleets of the Middle Ages dubious."

It was one of the largest but I would agree that "most powerful" is a claim that can't really be tested if they haven't engaged in many battles.

"You first used the UNESCO list to try to prove that Africa wasn’t historically less advanced that Europe"

I used it to show that Africa has many great places of human historical and cultural significance as well. Ones that continue to be listed as serious study of Africa emerges in recent years.

"How many great advances in these sectors did they make?"

Of local or global importance? In terms of global importance I would say Sudan and Ethiopia made the greatest advances. At least mathematically, scientifically and architecturally.

What's a great advance in literature or art is subjective. Great architecture as well to an extent is subjective.

"We’ll see. I’m pretty surprised by the fact that they claim it’s 75,000 years old."

I doubt it will be that old. I'll be shocked if it is. Humans are generally not believed to have had civilizations with that level of organization that long ago.

old comment by Vox

"I don’t know where these numbers come from but they’re probably an educated guesstimate at best. I does show that Europe was ahead by 1500 but I do not think that it makes a lot of sense to lump whole continents together."

Possibly. Continents have quite a lot of economic variation by region and even by country and regions of countries. One part of a single country can be very poor while another part is wealthy.

"I would also point out that many states of Renaissance Europe was already establishing colonial empires"

Maybe by the 1500s. Europe didn't really decisively conquer lands outside of the Americas until the 1700s.

"had invented the mechanical printing press"

Most historians attribute that to China.

"developed artillery and firearms"

A lot of the thanks can go to China for that. China developed canons as far back as the 12th century CE.

"and were starting to decisively push back the Islamic World."

Maybe by the late 1700s and early 1800s under Napoleon. The Crusades went back and forth in terms of success and the Islamic world started pushing back European forces in the 13th and 14th century. By the 15th and 16th centuries they had conquered part of Europe and it remained that way until around the time of Napoleon.

It's interesting to note that Ethiopia successfully avoided colonization by the Europeans until the 20th century by using a technique similar to the Ottomans in attempting to modernize their country and military.

old comment by

« Gold is more than a raw material, it's a currency. Hong Kong is a major financial center of the world. That's what I meant. Saying Mali supplying most of that part of the world's gold is about like saying Hong Kong just mostly deals with green fabric and coins. »

Timbuktu exported gold but as far as I know didn’t mint its own currency and didn’t perform banking or other financial activities and services. In contrast the Italian city-states and the Low Countries produced no gold or precious metals but had a well-developed financial sector:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_exchange#The_first_stock_exchanges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruges#Golden_Age_.2812th_to_15th_century.29

“The Arabs and Berbers were aware of peoples in Central Africa as well but didn't have much contact or economic activity with them. The Franks are only mentioned a couple of times here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests »

Your article is a list of Muslim conquests. The Arab and Berbers tried to invade modern-day France in the 8th century but were repelled.

And the Arabs were (literary) next-door neighbors with a series of Frankish kingdoms for two centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_states#In_the_Levant

“This seem to be Genoa's main commercial activity during that time:

Mostly textiles. Not all that huge of a global commercial hub.”

Huh? Textile were one of the most important industries of the Middle Ages and spices and silk were very fashionable luxury items in noble and wealthy circles. There were small Italian merchant communities who lived along the Silk Road as far as China. Here is an example of Italian silk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ItalianSilkDamask.jpg

old comment by

“Venice became an imperial power following the Venetian-financed Fourth Crusade, which in 1204 seized and sacked Constantinople and established the Latin Empire."

They financed a short 12-year long empire. »

The Latin empire lasted longer than that and was only a small part of Venice’s history. Here is a map of Venice’s network of colonies and fortresses in the late Middle Ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Repubblica_di_Venezia.png

“You can find similar types of castles in Africa. (most experts don't think the mud buildings of Mali and North Africa are primitive but you only seem to acknowledge stone castles):”

This one is better than the mud mosque, but the Italian buildings are earlier.

Here, this article lists some of the most famous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Gothic

“I know. What's your point?”

My original point was that Europe was in the midst of the Industrial Revolution at the time of Mopti’s foundation.

“Those are just a few, not the majority. The Great Pyramid might not be able to support its weight if it was made mostly of mud.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques#Third_and_Fourth_Dynasties

The most famous pyramids (and the best preserved) are those that were made of stone. The mud-brick ones are mostly eroded.

“Some of it is made of brick as can be seen from the pieces of it that are left. I don't know exactly how much of it:

http://www.360cities.net/image/the-benin-wall-the-benin-moat-benin-city-nigaria-africa#358.80,14.10,70.0”

This looks like a relatively recent wall. I think the picture is meant to show the remains of the earthen wall and moat on which the photographer is standing.

old comment by

“No one knew about that island until the 15th century. Including the Berbers and Europeans.”

That’s pretty much my point. The fact that they didn’t know about the islands until the Portuguese discovered it is pretty inconsistent with the idea that they had a large and powerful fleet.

“No, but Africans have visited all sorts of other islands. Such as this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Comore

and Madgascar.”

This has little to do with Mali.
I also note that a good number of scholars think that Austranesian explorers beat them to the discovery of the islands.

“They didn't really have anyone to fight with. They were on good terms with their neighbors for the most part.”
They built a mighty navy but didn’t use it in four centuries of existence?

“They moved some of their military around by sea and water:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200502/the.river.htm “

Unless I’ve missed something, your link mentions that a later African kingdom is reported to have used barges, fishing boats and canoes to transport an army along a river. That’s consistent with my earlier posts when I said that the fleets were mostly pirogues and other fishing boats.

“Of local or global importance? In terms of global importance I would say Sudan and Ethiopia made the greatest advances. At least mathematically, scientifically and architecturally. »

Such as?

“What's a great advance in literature or art is subjective. Great architecture as well to an extent is subjective.”

Not necessarily. For example, you may disagree with the idea of a thinker like Thomas Aquinas, but his thought had a lot of influence on the Catholic Church which in turn profoundly affected many countries. That makes him objectively very important.

old comment by

“Maybe by the 1500s. Europe didn't really decisively conquer lands outside of the Americas until the 1700s.”

Several European countries had well-established coastal colonies in Africa and India by the 1600s. They didn’t really start to push inland until the 1700s though.

“Most historians attribute that to China.”

Printing is a Chinese invention, but the modern printing press was invented in Germany.

“A lot of the thanks can go to China for that. China developed canons as far back as the 12th century CE.”

Gunpowder weapons were probably introduced in Europe by the Muslims or Mongols, but European artillery was then largely developed independently.

“Maybe by the late 1700s and early 1800s under Napoleon. The Crusades went back and forth in terms of success and the Islamic world started pushing back European forces in the 13th and 14th century. By the 15th and 16th centuries they had conquered part of Europe and it remained that way until around the time of Napoleon.”

The Muslims were decisively chased from the Iberian Peninsula during the 15th century. The Ottoman conquered most of the Balkans after the Byzantine Empire finally crumbled but their expansion was largely halted afterwards. I do agree though that the decisive reconquest of that part of Europe really began in the late 17th century.

“I will say some of the African sites on the list are advanced sites in Africa but there are many that haven't made the the list yet. In contrast I haven't seen many advanced sites in Europe that haven't made the UNESCO list. »

I counted around 25 cultural sites in black Africa. More will be added in the future but I doubt the gap will be closed. And there is quite a number of European sites that could be added to the list.

These two castles, for instance, are from the same region:

http://www.planetware.com/i/photo/chateau-de-fougeres-fougeres-f1375.jpg

http://sophie-mouton.info/public/images/connexes/Chateau_Nantes.jpg

old comment by Vox

"Timbuktu exported gold but as far as I know didn’t mint its own currency and didn’t perform banking or other financial activities and services."

Actually it did:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/4chapter4.shtml

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/gold/hd_gold.htm

http://www.csep.org.uk/pdf/newsflash_empires.pdf

They also used paper debt and IOUs and as I said earlier had a civil service system and something akin to a social security retirement system.

No challenge on what you said about Italian city states and banking.

"Your article is a list of Muslim conquests. The Arab and Berbers tried to invade modern-day France in the 8th century but were repelled."

It lists that they tried to conquer France but failed. They also failed to push as far inland Africa as Great Zimbabwe but didn't really see it as a major hub of their commerce.

"Huh? Textile were one of the most important industries of the Middle Ages and spices and silk were very fashionable luxury items in noble and wealthy circles. There were small Italian merchant communities who lived along the Silk Road as far as China."

You recognize that textiles are important in the middle ages but not gold production? (even though Mali and Ghana also did banking)

Especially when you own your own gold supply instead of having it taken by a colonizing force.

old comment by Vox

"The Latin empire lasted longer than that and was only a small part of Venice’s history. Here is a map of Venice’s network of colonies and fortresses in the late Middle Ages."

It implies there are colonies there but not necessarily fortresses and castles. I still maintain the Ottoman Empire was more powerful than the Venetian Kingdom at that point in history.

"This one is better than the mud mosque"

I guess this comes down to personal taste then since many scholars don't scoff at mud brick buildings like they used to back in the 19th century.

"but the Italian buildings are earlier."

Some are. There are earlier Ethiopian and Sudanese castles I haven't listed.

http://rumkatkilise.org/aanubiaapse.jpg

http://rumkatkilise.org/nubia.htm

"Here, this article lists some of the most famous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Gothic"

I learned about these in European History class but thanks for the link. It's nice to see them again. The Milan Cathedral is my personal favorite. One of the most detailed-looking churches I've ever seen.

"My original point was that Europe was in the midst of the Industrial Revolution at the time of Mopti’s foundation."

What was the point of that? (just asking)

"The most famous pyramids (and the best preserved) are those that were made of stone. The mud-brick ones are mostly eroded."

Depends on which region of the world we're talking about.

old comment by Vox

"Several European countries had well-established coastal colonies in Africa and India by the 1600s. They didn’t really start to push inland until the 1700s though."

They didn't really gain decisive and irrevocable control over them until the 1700s. In the 1600s they had to fight with various Bantu and Arab forces for control. By the 1700s they maintained complete control until around WWI and WWII.

"Gunpowder weapons were probably introduced in Europe by the Muslims or Mongols, but European artillery was then largely developed independently."

There is evidence that the Chinese may have invented rifles as early as the 14th and 15th century CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#China

Various European travelers who traveled to China may have been exposed to them.

"I counted around 25 cultural sites in black Africa. More will be added in the future but I doubt the gap will be closed."

Only time will tell. Most of the sites I've listed in Africa in the past few days are not part of the UNESCO list. Such as many of the castles and churches/cathedrals/mosques in Africa. Sankore isn't even on the list and it was one of the largest libraries in the medieval world.

"And there is quite a number of European sites that could be added to the list."

Some of the European sites on the list were developed between the 18th to 20th century. Not many indigenous African sites were built during that time as African economies became uprooted and entire populations became subjugated or decimated during the conquest of Africa by Arabs and Europeans. Most African city-building outside of Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, Benin and Zimbabwe stopped around the late 17th/early 18th century.

old comment by Vox

"That’s pretty much my point. The fact that they didn’t know about the islands until the Portuguese discovered it is pretty inconsistent with the idea that they had a large and powerful fleet."

Not really. The Byzantinians, Romans and Arabs had powerful fleets that didn't know about this place either.

One idiosyncrasy/aberration doesn't disprove the scholarship consensus of Mali's power. Or Byzantium, Rome or Arabia's power. The ancient Greeks only possibly knew about the island.

"This has little to do with Mali."

I know. That time I was just talking about coastal Africans in general.

"I also note that a good number of scholars think that Austranesian explorers beat them to the discovery of the islands."

The only one I'm aware of is Madagascar. Travel wasn't one-way. African sailors also sailed to Persia, India and China several centuries ago. Which are recorded in each of those respective civilizations.

These are the trading routes of Somalia as far back as 1000 CE alone (not including other African countries):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Somali_Enterprise.JPG

"Unless I’ve missed something, your link mentions that a later African kingdom is reported to have used barges, fishing boats and canoes to transport an army along a river. That’s consistent with my earlier posts when I said that the fleets were mostly pirogues and other fishing boats."

That's talking about a river, not an ocean. Nobody uses their biggest ships to go cross and down rivers.

"Such as?"

The introduction of iron-working, mining, multi-story construction, some of the world's oldest irrigation, some of the world's first obelisk towers, some of the world's oldest animal husbandry and farming, some of the oldest maritime trade, fractal geometry, etc.

old comment by Vox

"Not necessarily. For example, you may disagree with the idea of a thinker like Thomas Aquinas, but his thought had a lot of influence on the Catholic Church which in turn profoundly affected many countries. That makes him objectively very important."

Objectively important within Europe or globally? Globally I would say most continents had civilizations with thinkers who recorded similar thoughts independently of him.

For example, earlier I pointed out that the Haya peoples discovered processing carbon steel centuries before the Europeans but since this knowledge wasn't responsible for the later European "re-discovery" it wouldn't really be of importance in the history of Western technology.

"This guy was one-fourth black"

True, but he considered himself black in his writings.

"and apparently never set foot in Africa."

Should ancient and medieval Europeans who lived in the Middle East and North Africa have their contributions considered part of North African or Middle Eastern history instead of European?

old comment by

“It implies there are colonies there but not necessarily fortresses and castles. I still maintain the Ottoman Empire was more powerful than the Venetian Kingdom at that point in history. »

The control of these territories was disputed between the various powers of the Mediterranean so most of them were fortified.

Here is a personal webpage with a clickable map of the network of Venetian-controlled fortresses and settlements in Greece and Western Anatolia. Some of them were built after the Middle Ages or were probably originally Byzantine castles but there are a good number that are quite ancient.

http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Venezia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraklion#Venetian_Era

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu#Medieval_history

I never said that the Republic of Venice was as powerful as the Ottoman Empire. Venice was primarily a naval power which largely contributed to the various anti-Ottoman leagues and successfully defended its colonies for centuries but it never had the manpower to seriously challenge the Ottoman Empire on land. The reason why I brought Venice, the Franks and the rest of the Italian cities into the discussion is because you said earlier that Medieval Europe was largely cut off from the rest of the world.

“Some are. There are earlier Ethiopian and Sudanese castles I haven't listed.

http://rumkatkilise.org/aanubiaapse.jpg

http://rumkatkilise.org/nubia.htm »

This cathedral is (or rather was apparently) situated in Egypt.

“What was the point of that? (just asking) »

That Mopti wasn’t very advanced when it was founded.

“Depends on which region of the world we're talking about.”

Your first post mentions “The Pyramids” with a capital P. I interpreted this as a reference to the Egyptian pyramids since these are by far the most famous.

old comment by

« Actually it did:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/4chapter4.shtml

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/gold/hd_gold.htm

http://www.csep.org.uk/pdf/newsflash_empires.pdf

They also used paper debt and IOUs and as I said earlier had a civil service system and something akin to a social security retirement system.”

The first two links mention that several West African kingdoms used salt, cowry shells and gold as currencies. According to Wikipedia gold dust and nuggets were the main currencies in Mali. Perhaps standardized pieces of gold were used at some point in Timbuktu to facilitate the trade but it doesn’t seem to have been widespread.

The third link is a two-page pdf which looks like a school project and cites no references. Here’s the original website that posted it, I don’t think it should be considered a valid source.

http://www.csep.org.uk/

“It lists that they tried to conquer France but failed. They also failed to push as far inland Africa as Great Zimbabwe but didn't really see it as a major hub of their commerce.”

I don’t think the Arab ever tried to take over the inland regions of East Africa.

Western Europe in general was an important market for silk and spices but most trade with the East was handled through the intermediary of the Byzantine Empire and the Italians, except perhaps during the time of the Crusades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade#Trade

“You recognize that textiles are important in the middle ages but not gold production? (even though Mali and Ghana also did banking)

Especially when you own your own gold supply instead of having it taken by a colonizing force.”

This is what I said earlier:

Gold is a raw material. I’m not saying it was not important of course but these exports of gold, salt and slaves alone do not imply advanced knowledge.

old comment by

“They didn't really gain decisive and irrevocable control over them until the 1700s. In the 1600s they had to fight with various Bantu and Arab forces for control. By the 1700s they maintained complete control until around WWI and WWII.”

I don’t think the British and French settlements in coastal West Africa were ever seriously threatened but I agree that the real colonization efforts didn’t start until later.

“There is evidence that the Chinese may have invented rifles as early as the 14th and 15th century CE.

Various European travelers who traveled to China may have been exposed to them.”

This is entirely speculative on your part. And even if it were the case, the subsequent developments did not originate in China.

“Only time will tell. Most of the sites I've listed in Africa in the past few days are not part of the UNESCO list. Such as many of the castles and churches/cathedrals/mosques in Africa. Sankore isn't even on the list and it was one of the largest libraries in the medieval world.”

Several of the sites that you listed were actually already on the list. And Sankore isn’t included because the city of Timbuktu as a whole already is. The grouping of several sites is quite common on the Unesco list. For instance, the different Renaissance castles and cities of the Loire Valley are all grouped together under one entry even though there are dozens of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loire_Valley

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Ch%C3%A2teaux_de_la_Loire_-_Karte.jpg

old comment by

“Some of the European sites on the list were developed between the 18th to 20th century. Not many indigenous African sites were built during that time as African economies became uprooted and entire populations became subjugated or decimated during the conquest of Africa by Arabs and Europeans. Most African city-building outside of Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, Benin and Zimbabwe stopped around the late 17th/early 18th century. »

So? There are certain periods of history were whole parts of Europe were ravaged by invasions or epidemics.

“Not really. The Byzantinians, Romans and Arabs had powerful fleets that didn't know about this place either.

One idiosyncrasy/aberration doesn't disprove the scholarship consensus of Mali's power. Or Byzantium, Rome or Arabia's power. The ancient Greeks only possibly knew about the island. »

That’s not a very valid comparison. The Byzantines and Romans and to a more limited extent the Arabs of North Africa lived much farther away and had little business in the area. Mali was right in front of the archipelago.

So far you haven’t provided any evidence to support the idea that Mali was one of the world’s biggest maritime powers. Even the African guy cited in your first link says that the fleet that sailed from Mali and carried the emperor was made of pirogues. Some pirogues can be relatively big but they are not suited for long-distance trips or open waters. I honestly think that the whole thing is a misinterpretation on your part.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1068950.stm

“The researchers claim that Abubakari's fleet of pirogues, loaded with men and women, livestock, food and drinking water, departed from what is the coast of present-day Gambia.”

old comment by

“The only one I'm aware of is Madagascar. Travel wasn't one-way. African sailors also sailed to Persia, India and China several centuries ago. Which are recorded in each of those respective civilizations.

These are the trading routes of Somalia as far back as 1000 CE alone (not including other African countries):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Somali_Enterprise.JPG »

I honestly don’t know much about the East African trade (beyond what’s on the various wiki pages), but it seems that the native Africans mostly acted as suppliers of goods from the inner regions of Africa and that most of the shipping was done by the Middle Eastern or Indian merchants.

“That's talking about a river, not an ocean. Nobody uses their biggest ships to go cross and down rivers.”

See above.

“The introduction of iron-working, mining, multi-story construction, some of the world's oldest irrigation, some of the world's first obelisk towers, some of the world's oldest animal husbandry and farming, some of the oldest maritime trade, fractal geometry, etc. »

All of these things appeared independently in different regions of the world. And how do you know that the Sudanese and Ethiopians invented mining and introduced it to the world? I’m pretty sure that prehistoric men all around the globe extracted minerals for tools and decoration. Same thing for iron-working, many countries claim that they came up with it first.

old comment by

“Objectively important within Europe or globally? Globally I would say most continents had civilizations with thinkers who recorded similar thoughts independently of him. »

I’m not even really talking about literary of philosophical merit. The Catholic Church was mostly European at the time of Thomas’s death but later it expanded to all continents and converted hundreds of millions of people. This means that the works of the thinkers that shaped the Early and Medieval Church eventually had a huge historical significance.
The same could be said for Muhammad for instance. I think he was full of crap, a child fucker and a bloodthirsty warlord who unleashed a global plague but that doesn’t change the fact that he was one of the most influential people in history.

“True, but he considered himself black in his writings.

Should ancient and medieval Europeans who lived in the Middle East and North Africa have their contributions considered part of North African or Middle Eastern history instead of European? »

Is that a reference to Augustine? He was probably a North African Berber and thus not European. He could be considered part of Western History though.

Al-Jahiz was 75% Arab and apparently used the word “black” in a different way than we would. He mentions “black tribes” among the Arabs of the Middle East along with “black” animals; he probably strictly referred to skin color.

Should Tiger Woods be considered a European golf player because he has some Dutch ancestry?

old comment by Vox

"Perhaps standardized pieces of gold were used at some point in Timbuktu to facilitate the trade but it doesn’t seem to have been widespread."

According to Leo Africanus it was.

"The third link is a two-page pdf which looks like a school project and cites no references. Here’s the original website that posted it, I don’t think it should be considered a valid source."

Why?

"I don’t think the Arab ever tried to take over the inland regions of East Africa."

They tried to push as far inland as they could. They were defeated more than once by Swahili, Ethiopian and Somali militaries.

"Western Europe in general was an important market for silk and spices but most trade with the East was handled through the intermediary of the Byzantine Empire and the Italians, except perhaps during the time of the Crusades."

The Wiki link you cited doesn't cite any sources for this claim that Western Europe was a world provider of silk and spices. That would also seem to contradict old accounts of Africa, India and the Middle East as the major world sources of spices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

"Gold is a raw material. I’m not saying it was not important of course but these exports of gold, salt and slaves alone do not imply advanced knowledge."

And earlier I said Malian universities (one alone containing 700,000 manuscripts), observatories, a relatively sophisticated military, a constitution (one of the world's oldest), a civil service system and a retirement system shows they had advanced knowledge.

old comment by Vox

"Here is a personal webpage with a clickable map of the network of Venetian-controlled fortresses and settlements in Greece and Western Anatolia. Some of them were built after the Middle Ages or were probably originally Byzantine castles but there are a good number that are quite ancient."

Interesting.

1) This isn't that surprising given that Greece/Rome/Byzantine were the main civilization hub of Europe until the late Middle Ages.

2) Some aren't forts but some of them are. Some of the forts are ancient or built in the middle ages but a good number of them were built between 1650-1900. Some of the ones built in the middle ages were upgraded in more modern and industrial times.

"The reason why I brought Venice, the Franks and the rest of the Italian cities into the discussion is because you said earlier that Medieval Europe was largely cut off from the rest of the world."

By "largely" I didn't mean "entirely". Not as severe as Japan's pre-Meiji isolation policy but Europe's access to the outside world in the 1600s and 1700s was considerably larger compared to what it was in, say, 1100 or 1300 CE. A lot of their interaction with the outside world between 700 CE to 1400 CE was reactive (as in reacting to foreign invaders). Barring the Byzantines, Italians and Spaniards.

It wasn't meant to be demeaning as the same could be said of Sudan, Ethiopia and Mali at some points in medieval history and China during the early Industrial Revolution.

"This cathedral is (or rather was apparently) situated in Egypt."

Modern boundaries are not the same as medieval boundaries. At the time it was built it was part of Nubia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faras

Nubia and Egypt have absorbed each other's territory back and forth for centuries. Although saying something is in Egypt doesn't necessarily imply anything racial as Egypt is a multi-ethnic society.

old comment by Vox

"So? There are certain periods of history were whole parts of Europe were ravaged by invasions or epidemics."

Europe was never conquered on the scale that Africa or the Americas were. Their economies have never been that interrupted. Even by the Black Plague. Though during periods of conquest there was a noticeable drop in European city-building in the conquered areas. Such as the Balkans under Ottoman invasion at times. However, the Ottomans, Huns and Moors never attempted wiping out the native European population. Their system was to conquer and make the Europeans tributary kingdoms rather than turn them into slave colonies as the Europeans did with non-European lands during the Colonial Age.

"That’s not a very valid comparison. The Byzantines and Romans and to a more limited extent the Arabs of North Africa lived much farther away and had little business in the area. Mali was right in front of the archipelago."

Actually I spoke too soon. Apparently it was visited by at least one or two Western African civilizations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cape_Verde#Pre-European_visitors

http://books.google.com/books?id=MdaAdBC-_S4C&pg=PA330&lpg=PA330&dq=Cape+Verde+Lebu&source=bl&ots=dMbToDtfaS&sig=Lv-QEbKDOfpKNHyNJ2OsR-f57H8&hl=en&ei=HnNCTPuQOoK78gb63akF&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=11&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=Cape%20Verde%20Lebu&f=false

http://www.accessgambia.com/information/wolof-empire.html

"So far you haven’t provided any evidence to support the idea that Mali was one of the world’s biggest maritime powers."

I linked this earlier:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200502/the.river.htm

old comment by Vox

"I’m not even really talking about literary of philosophical merit. The Catholic Church was mostly European at the time of Thomas’s death but later it expanded to all continents and converted hundreds of millions of people. This means that the works of the thinkers that shaped the Early and Medieval Church eventually had a huge historical significance."

Ah, so that's what you meant. I get what you mean but I would still say that different countries' historical aboriginal thinkers and philosophers probably have a greater influence on them regardless of their religion. For instance, most black South Africans probably know more about Shaka Zulu and Nelson Mandela than they would Thomas Aquinas or St. Nicholas.

"Is that a reference to Augustine?"

No. I was thinking more along the lines of Romans who lived in subjugated parts of North Africa.

"He was probably a North African Berber and thus not European. He could be considered part of Western History though."

Because he lived in Europe?

"Al-Jahiz was 75% Arab and apparently used the word “black” in a different way than we would. He mentions “black tribes” among the Arabs of the Middle East along with “black” animals; he probably strictly referred to skin color."

The Arabs usually just referred to non-Berber Africans as "black people". The "black tribes" among the Arabs is probably a reference to the "Zanj":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Arabs

"Should Tiger Woods be considered a European golf player because he has some Dutch ancestry?"

I just consider people whatever they consider themselves.

old comment by Vox

"I don’t think the British and French settlements in coastal West Africa were ever seriously threatened but I agree that the real colonization efforts didn’t start until later."

I don't know about West Africa but I know they had a difficult time with East Africa. For instance off the top of my head I remember the Somali-Omani effort which temporarily pushed out the Portuguese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajuuraan_State#Ajuuraan-Portuguese_wars

"This is entirely speculative on your part."

There could have been exposure during this time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut

There were no mentions of matchlocks in Europe prior to this era. The Chinese at the time used something they called "hand cannons".

"Several of the sites that you listed were actually already on the list. And Sankore isn’t included because the city of Timbuktu as a whole already is."

Just off the top of my head look at all these sites just from one country that aren't on the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_somalia

old comment by Vox

"I honestly don’t know much about the East African trade (beyond what’s on the various wiki pages), but it seems that the native Africans mostly acted as suppliers of goods from the inner regions of Africa and that most of the shipping was done by the Middle Eastern or Indian merchants."

Shipping was done by Middle Eastern, Swahili and Indian merchants. There are medieval accounts of East Africans using barges, naval carriers and supply ships just like the Indians and Middle Easterners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_history_of_Somalia

http://www.blackjadeworld.com/article2_1.html

"All of these things appeared independently in different regions of the world."

By that logic most civilizations (including European ones) contributed nothing to the world.

"And how do you know that the Sudanese and Ethiopians invented mining and introduced it to the world?"

Actually that was in Swaziland. People continued to move around the world during that time. That was 43,000 years ago, which was during mass human migrations.

old comment by

« According to Leo Africanus it was. »

He described unminted pieces of gold. Italian ducats and Arabic dinars were used in Timbuktu, how many Timbuktu coins have been found outside of Mali? How many have been found at all?

“Why? »

Because it’s a very vague two-pages pdf which cites no sources or references. The part about Mali doesn’t even mention any banking. Your claim that it was the “Hong Kong of the times” is unrealistic.

“The Wiki link you cited doesn't cite any sources for this claim that Western Europe was a world provider of silk and spices. That would also seem to contradict old accounts of Africa, India and the Middle East as the major world sources of spices.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea »

I said that Europe was a market for exotic products like spices and silk threads, not a producer.

“And earlier I said Malian universities (one alone containing 700,000 manuscripts), observatories, a relatively sophisticated military, a constitution (one of the world's oldest), a civil service system and a retirement system shows they had advanced knowledge.”

All of these things existed in the different states of Western Europe. France and England in particular had relatively centralized states and administration systems. Universities were also established in most large cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_university

The English published the Charter of Liberties and the Magna Carta in the Middle Ages, and both documents influenced many legal systems in the centuries that followed.

old comment by

“Europe was never conquered on the scale that Africa or the Americas were. Their economies have never been that interrupted. Even by the Black Plague. Though during periods of conquest there was a noticeable drop in European city-building in the conquered areas. Such as the Balkans under Ottoman invasion at times. However, the Ottomans, Huns and Moors never attempted wiping out the native European population. Their system was to conquer and make the Europeans tributary kingdoms rather than turn them into slave colonies as the Europeans did with non-European lands during the Colonial Age. »

The Europeans never tried to wipe out the populations of Africa. There were wars and massacres but nothing like what happened in the Americas. Furthermore, many regions of Africa were colonized quite late and for relatively short periods of time. For example, most of the Sahel fell to the French in the last decade of the 19th century and got its independence around 1960. Colonization does not explain why so many regions of Africa were backwards by the 19th century.

“Actually I spoke too soon. Apparently it was visited by at least one or two Western African civilizations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cape_Verde#Pre-European_visitors

http://www.accessgambia.com/information/wolof-empire.html”

Wikipedia claims that there are some documents that support the idea that the Greeks and Arabs knew of the islands. The article also mentions that some West African fishermen may have been drifted to the archipelago by the winds and currents but there is no evidence of that.

The other two links mention the homonymous Cape Verde/Cap Vert peninsula in Senegal and have nothing to do with the islands.

old comment by

“Interesting.
1) This isn't that surprising given that Greece/Rome/Byzantine were the main civilization hub of Europe until the late Middle Ages.
2) Some aren't forts but some of them are. Some of the forts are ancient or built in the middle ages but a good number of them were built between 1650-1900. Some of the ones built in the middle ages were upgraded in more modern and industrial times. »

That’s exactly what I said.

“By "largely" I didn't mean "entirely". Not as severe as Japan's pre-Meiji isolation policy but Europe's access to the outside world in the 1600s and 1700s was considerably larger compared to what it was in, say, 1100 or 1300 CE.”

Europe in the 1600s and 1700s had direct access to every continent, which was quite unprecedented in the world’s history. The fact that the Medieval trade was not as direct does not mean that Europe was “isolated”.

“A lot of their interaction with the outside world between 700 CE to 1400 CE was reactive (as in reacting to foreign invaders). Barring the Byzantines, Italians and Spaniards. »

Barring the Byzantines, the Spaniards and Portuguese, the Italians, the Crusader States, the Russian Principalities That’s pretty much everybody on the borders of the Islamic World.

“Modern boundaries are not the same as medieval boundaries. At the time it was built it was part of Nubia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faras
Nubia and Egypt have absorbed each other's territory back and forth for centuries. Although saying something is in Egypt doesn't necessarily imply anything racial as Egypt is a multi-ethnic society. »

Didn’t you previously say that southern Egypt was mostly non-black?

“1) What do you base its level of advancement on?
2) When it was founded Mali had already been conquered.”

The buildings in Mopti were mostly built in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and don’t look much different from those in Timbuktu. That tends to show that Mali didn’t change that much over the centuries.

old comment by

“I linked this earlier:
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200502/the.river.htm”

I already answered that. Here is what the link mentions:

“In 1464, Gao was wrested from the Malian Empire back to local control by Sonni Ali, founder of the second Songhai Dynasty, which brought down the Malians and, in daring naval campaigns, expanded Songhai rule westward beyond Timbuktu and Djenné. That Songhai power was based as much on its navy as its cavalry is evident from the language’s specialized military terms for “harbormaster,” “boat-master” and “war canoe”goima-koi, hi-koi and kunta.
Sonni Ali drowned in 1492an unsurprising fate for a man of the river.
The Songhais relied on naval power to extend their reach as never before. One chronicle relates that at Gao alone there were ready for muster 400 war barges, 1000 fishing boats and 600 merchant canoes. Using this river transport to rapidly move its soldiers, the Songhais reached north to the Taghaza salt pans near Morocco, east to the Bilma Oasis near Chad and west to the mouth of the Gambia River. ”

First, this is not even about the Mali Empire. Second, all of these naval operations were conducted along rivers and involved barges and canoes or pirogues.

old comment by

“Ah, so that's what you meant. I get what you mean but I would still say that different countries' historical aboriginal thinkers and philosophers probably have a greater influence on them regardless of their religion. For instance, most black South Africans probably know more about Shaka Zulu and Nelson Mandela than they would Thomas Aquinas or St. Nicholas.”

Fame and influence are two different things. I’m pretty sure that the majority of people in the United States and most other countries have no idea who Descartes or Galileo were but that doesn’t change the fact that these two people were among the most influential in shaping our modern world.

“Because he lived in Europe?”

No, because North Africa was then a romanized and Christian region and that the Catholic Church is historically a Western institution.

“The Arabs usually just referred to non-Berber Africans as "black people". The "black tribes" among the Arabs is probably a reference to the "Zanj":

Even today there is a significant Afro-Arab population in Yemen and Oman. Partially from ancient and medieval expansions of East African empires (such as the 25th Dynasty expansion of Nubia into Judea, Jordan and Lebanon; Memon's conquest of the Near East and Iraq; and the expansion of Axum and Somalia into the Arab Peninsula) and from Arab and Ottoman enslavement of Africans. »

He was talking about a whole tribe. The Zanj were mostly slaves and I very much doubt that whole tribes of blacks roamed the deserts of Arabia. Some Yemeni have fairly dark skin but they are not of negroid origin. They are physically very distinct from the Afro-Iraqis or Afro-Arabs.

“I just consider people whatever they consider themselves.”

That doesn’t change his biological and geographical origins.

“I don't know about West Africa but I know they had a difficult time with East Africa. »

True.

old comment by

“There could have been exposure during this time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut

There were no mentions of matchlocks in Europe prior to this era. The Chinese at the time used something they called "hand cannons".”
The guns used in this battle were not matchlock muskets. This battle took place in the mid-13th century and you said earlier that the earliest estimates put the invention of the matchlock in the 14th/15th centuries.
“Just off the top of my head look at all these sites just from one country that aren't on the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_somalia”
That’s one country. And it is not included because there is no government here. Also, a good number of the sites in Somalia will be of Italian or Arab origin.

old comment by

"The Zanj were for centuries shipped as slaves by Arab traders to all the countries bordering the Indian Ocean. The Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs recruited many Zanj slaves as soldiers and, as early as 696 AD, we learn of slave revolts of the Zanj against their Arab masters in Iraq (see Zanj Rebellion). Ancient Chinese texts also mention ambassadors from Java presenting the Chinese emperor with two Seng Chi (Zanji) slaves as gifts, and Seng Chi slaves reaching China from the Hindu kingdom of Sri Vijaya in Java.[11]"

“By that logic most civilizations (including European ones) contributed nothing to the world.”
Many inventions (especially the most ancient ones like writing or agriculture) were made independently by various cultures and at different points of history. Others (like gunpowder) were made by a specific civilization or culture and then spread across the world. But sometimes it’s a fine line as many inventions build upon previous ones. I’m not saying that discovering agriculture is no big deal; it’s the word “contribution” (which means to give something) that I don’t really agree with.

“Actually that was in Swaziland. People continued to move around the world during that time. That was 43,000 years ago, which was during mass human migrations. »

The oldest-known shoe was recently found in Armenia. That doesn’t mean that modern-day Armenian deserve credit for inventing the shoemaking industry.

old comment by

“Shipping was done by Middle Eastern, Swahili and Indian merchants.[snip]”

The first two links mention the kingdoms of North-East Africa. I’ll have to look into that but I have seen people from the region and some of them don’t look black at all.
The third link is obviously a partisan website that interprets very liberally the quotes from Chinese sources and only offers more speculation. For instance they say that the navigators who came to China must have been black because they brought a rhinoceros with them. That’s ludicrous. They also cite the sultanate of Zanzibar, which was a Persian and Arab outpost.
Here is what the wiki article on the “Zanj” says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj#History
Arab writers used the term Zanj to refer to "Bantu-speaking Negroes" on the coast of East Africa and south of Barbara and Abyssinia.[1][6] The Zanj traded extensively with Arabs, Persians and Indians, but only locally since they possessed no ocean-going ships.[1] Through this trade, some Arabs intermarried with local Bantu women, which eventually gave rise to the Swahili culture and language -- both Bantu in origin but significantly influenced by foreign elements (e.g. clothing, loan words, etc.).[10]

The urban ruling and commercial classes of these Swahili settlements was occupied by Arab and Persian immigrants. The Bantu peoples inhabited the coastal regions, and were organized only as family groups.[1] The term 'shenzi' used on the East African coast and derived from Swahili 'zanji' referred in a derogatory way to anything associated with rural blacks. An example of this would be the colonial term a 'shenzi' dog, referring to a native dog.

old comment by Vox

"He described unminted pieces of gold. Italian ducats and Arabic dinars were used in Timbuktu, how many Timbuktu coins have been found outside of Mali? How many have been found at all?"

A lot of the gold was raided by the Portuguese when Mali was conquered. Few pieces still survive today. You can read more about it:

http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=Bambuk%20gold%20mine&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw

"Because it’s a very vague two-pages pdf which cites no sources or references. The part about Mali doesn’t even mention any banking."

This does:

http://books.google.com/books?id=WAQbp7aLpZkC&pg=PR6&dq=Africa+from+the+twelfth+to+the+sixteenth+century+D.T.+Niane&hl=en&ei=PMhDTKqUKoT58Ab4l6HkDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=20&f=false (tell me if you can see this)

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2294578

"All of these things existed in the different states of Western Europe. France and England in particular had relatively centralized states and administration systems. Universities were also established in most large cities."

You said:

"I’m not saying it was not important of course but these exports of gold, salt and slaves alone do not imply advanced knowledge."

I simply gave you evidence. And it's not as if Mali was the only place in Africa that had such things or had universities.

"The English published the Charter of Liberties and the Magna Carta in the Middle Ages, and both documents influenced many legal systems in the centuries that followed."

The Kouroukan Fouga came out around the same time as the Magna Carta. Although, admittedly, it didn't influence as many legal systems around the world as the Malians didn't colonize like the British did. Though most non-Western constitutions are also based as much on or more on their own aboriginal charters predating British contact.

old comment by Vox

"Europe in the 1600s and 1700s had direct access to every continent, which was quite unprecedented in the world’s history."

I know.

"The fact that the Medieval trade was not as direct does not mean that Europe was “isolated”."

That's a different time. I was talking about medieval times. I was saying Europe was more isolated in medieval times (which for Europe would be ~400/500 CE to ~1450/1500 CE).

"Barring the Byzantines, the Spaniards and Portuguese, the Italians, the Crusader States, the Russian Principalities That’s pretty much everybody on the borders of the Islamic World."

The Kievan Rus's interaction with the world outside of Europe took place mostly after their domination by the Mongols which sort of forced them into international politics. Most of the Crusader States didn't have an active trading relationship with the Middle East until around the Age of Discovery. Usually they were on negative terms with the Islamic World and contact between the two was limited. Mali/Songhay, Abyssinia, Makuria, Somalia and the Swahili city-states were on more positive terms with the Islamic world until around the 1600s and 1700s.

"Didn’t you previously say that southern Egypt was mostly non-black?"

No. I said many parts of Northern Egypt are mostly non-black. Egypt becomes blacker the further south you go. Sudan is pretty uniformly black. Though many Islamic Sudanese people politically and culturally call themselves "Arab" (such as the Janjaweed) even though ethnically they're black. Due to Arabization.

old comment by Vox

"The buildings in Mopti were mostly built in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and don’t look much different from those in Timbuktu. That tends to show that Mali didn’t change that much over the centuries."

Mali didn't change that much between the 1650s to the early 20th century. It fell into decline in the 17th century with the Almoravid conquest of Gao. Then it was conquered by the Europeans and some of the population was used for slave labor.

"The Europeans never tried to wipe out the populations of Africa. There were wars and massacres but nothing like what happened in the Americas."

Uh, have you heard of Leopold II?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa#Colonization_of_the_Congo

Or the Second Boer War?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War

Or the Herero Genocide?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

Now not all European colonizers did things like that, as the colonizers had differing policies, but there are more examples.

"Furthermore, many regions of Africa were colonized quite late"

The Europeans had been gradually monopolizing control of African trade since the 16th and 17th century. As they pushed farther inland when they dominated the peoples they took ownership of the land leaving Africans basically as squatters on their own (well, previously) land.

"and for relatively short periods of time. For example, most of the Sahel fell to the French in the last decade of the 19th century and got its independence around 1960."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_slave_trade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa

old comment by Vox

"Colonization does not explain why so many regions of Africa were backwards by the 19th century."

In the 19th century most African land was owned by Europeans. You can't do all that much when you don't own your own land a good portion of your population is being used for chattel slavery. Ownership is VERY important for building an economy and progress.

"Wikipedia claims that there are some documents that support the idea that the Greeks and Arabs knew of the islands."

Knowing of something is different from colonizing it.

"The article also mentions that some West African fishermen may have been drifted to the archipelago by the winds and currents but there is no evidence of that."

If they were fishermen off the coast of the island that would be different from inhabiting the island.

"First, this is not even about the Mali Empire."

Correct, it was the Songhai Empire which replaced the Mali Empire. I've sometimes used the words interchangeably (even though I shouldn't) but it still refers mostly to the same region.

"Second, all of these naval operations were conducted along rivers and involved barges and canoes or pirogues."

A war barge is not the same thing as a pirogue.

This is an image of an abandoned war barge that was washed ashore or ran ashore:

http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his311/archives/pix/koulikor.gif

It's not that much smaller than those Viking ships. This may not be their largest type either.

old comment by Vox

"Fame and influence are two different things. I’m pretty sure that the majority of people in the United States and most other countries have no idea who Descartes or Galileo were but that doesn’t change the fact that these two people were among the most influential in shaping our modern world."

Shaka Zulu was pretty influential in some of the social and military organization of modern South Africa.

"No, because North Africa was then a romanized and Christian region and that the Catholic Church is historically a Western institution."

1) Parts of it were. Not the whole thing.
2) Actually Augustine did live in Rome.

"He was talking about a whole tribe. The Zanj were mostly slaves and I very much doubt that whole tribes of blacks roamed the deserts of Arabia."

Blacks have conquered and ventured into the Middle East on more than one occasion. One I mentioned earlier, which you stopped contesting, being the conquest of Egypt and parts of the Middle/Near East during the 25th Dynasty. Though in the case of the Zanj most were slaves.

"Some Yemeni have fairly dark skin but they are not of negroid origin. They are physically very distinct from the Afro-Iraqis or Afro-Arabs."

1) No such thing really as "Negroid".
2) Yemenis are not a monolithic peoples. Some Yeminis are Afro-Arabs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Yemen#Ethnic_groups_and_languages

Yemen, Oman and Egypt are fairly ethnically/"racially" diverse.

"That doesn’t change his biological and geographical origins."

Given there's no such thing as a "blackness gene" or "whiteness gene" or "Arabness gene" that's why I just consider people whatever they call themselves. At least culturally. Berbers are in Africa yet they don't consider themselves black even though genetically they're more or less as closely related to them as they are to Mediterraneans.

old comment by Vox

"This battle took place in the mid-13th century and you said earlier that the earliest estimates put the invention of the matchlock in the 14th/15th centuries."

The hand cannon was the predecessor of the matchlock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket#Asia

"That’s one country."

My point exactly. I could go on listing places from other countries in Africa.

"And it is not included because there is no government here."

Possibly.

"Also, a good number of the sites in Somalia will be of Italian or Arab origin."

Such as? Name them.

"I’ll have to look into that but I have seen people from the region and some of them don’t look black at all."

Are you talking about people like this?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/79/243687258_9aa4913162.jpg

http://mylondondiary.co.uk/2005/12/09/051209_d0522.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41378000/jpg/_41378167_ap_ethiopians_300.jpg

Genetically they're just as black as other Africans. If you're referring to Berbers there aren't many Berbers in these countries.

You're starting to sound like a racialist.

old comment by Vox

"The third link is obviously a partisan website"

Based on what?

"that interprets very liberally the quotes from Chinese sources and only offers more speculation. For instance they say that the navigators who came to China must have been black because they brought a rhinoceros with them. That’s ludicrous. They also cite the sultanate of Zanzibar, which was a Persian and Arab outpost."

1) The wording used was a general word that non-Africans used for the Swahili coast. They don't necessarily literally mean Zanzibar. Arabs and Persians sometimes referred to Kilwa and Mogadishu as words akin to "Zanzibar".

2) The Swahilis also used Zanzibar as a trading outpost:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#The_rise_of_Swahili_to_regional_prominence

You also ignored things like physical descriptions of these travelers and drawings of them.

3) Zanzibar is not the only place in East African mentioned.

"Zanj traded extensively with Arabs, Persians and Indians, but only locally since they possessed no ocean-going ships."

I'm not sure what this claim is based on as there is ample record of ocean-going Swahili ships, such as merchant ships and cargo liners in Somalia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajuuraan_State

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Somalia

In fact Somalia was a hydraulic empire.

"The urban ruling and commercial classes of these Swahili settlements was occupied by Arab and Persian immigrants."

Where? In Zanzibar? Yes. There is no record of Arab and Persian immigrants being a major demographic of Kilwa, Sofala, Mogadishu, Mombasa, etc. If so where are the records and where are these people now?

old comment by Vox

By "genetically as black as other Africans" (referring to people in the Horn of Africa) I mean that's who their closest genetic distance is to.

As for the references to slavery I'm sure that did go on as contemporary sources spoke of slave trades on the Swahili coast. Though most sources say it was sparse prior the 16th and 17th century.

I can't find any references of "shenzi" though independent of that one reference. The same source which claims most East African settlements were inhabited by Arabs and Persians seems to be based chiefly on the fact that the region is mostly Islamic. It seems to be conflating the Islamic religion with Arabic/Persian ethnicity. There were many black Islamic sultanates in Africa. Such as the one that built this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Husuni_Kubwa

And ones such as the Funj Sultanate, the Sokoto Sultanate/Caliphate, the Adal Sultanate, the Walashma Dynasty, the Wituland Sultanate, etc. The Sultanates of Africa outside of North Africa are all black except for the Zanzibar Sultanate.

"The oldest-known shoe was recently found in Armenia. That doesn’t mean that modern-day Armenian deserve credit for inventing the shoemaking industry."

I see what you mean.

old comment by

“A lot of the gold was raided by the Portuguese when Mali was conquered. Few pieces still survive today. You can read more about it:

http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=Bambuk%20gold%20mine&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw”

Your link redirects me towards a google search with lots of unrelated content. And I don’t see how a Portuguese raid would explain why these coins are not found today. They didn’t even raid Timbuktu.

“This does:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2294578”

None of these links say anything about Timbuktu being a banking center.

“You said:

"I’m not saying it was not important of course but these exports of gold, salt and slaves alone do not imply advanced knowledge."

I simply gave you evidence. And it's not as if Mali was the only place in Africa that had such things or had universities.”

You previously cited Timbuktu’s trade as evidence of it being an advanced society.

“The Kouroukan Fouga came out around the same time as the Magna Carta. Although, admittedly, it didn't influence as many legal systems around the world as the Malians didn't colonize like the British did. Though most non-Western constitutions are also based as much on or more on their own aboriginal charters predating British contact. “

A lot of African constitutions are based on those of the former colonial powers, especially France and Britain. Or at least in theory, practice is often quite different.

old comment by

“That's a different time. I was talking about medieval times. I was saying Europe was more isolated in medieval times (which for Europe would be ~400/500 CE to ~1450/1500 CE). “

The fact that Europe was comparatively more isolated during the Middle Ages compared to the Age of Discovery does not mean that the continent was cut off from the rest of the world.

“The Kievan Rus's interaction with the world outside of Europe took place mostly after their domination by the Mongols which sort of forced them into international politics.”

The Vikings and the Rus traded with the Middle East in the early Middle Ages and later with the Byzantine Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_trade_route

“Most of the Crusader States didn't have an active trading relationship with the Middle East until around the Age of Discovery. Usually they were on negative terms with the Islamic World and contact between the two was limited. Mali/Songhay, Abyssinia, Makuria, Somalia and the Swahili city-states were on more positive terms with the Islamic world until around the 1600s and 1700s.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem#Economy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Legacy

The fact that the Crusader States often had less-than-cordial diplomatic relations with their Muslim neighbors doesn’t mean that trade did not actively take place. Political disputes and even wars seldom prevent people from seeking wealth through trade.

“No. I said many parts of Northern Egypt are mostly non-black. Egypt becomes blacker the further south you go. Sudan is pretty uniformly black. Though many Islamic Sudanese people politically and culturally call themselves "Arab" (such as the Janjaweed) even though ethnically they're black. Due to Arabization. »

Nubians are not even 1% of Egypt’s population. You previously cited a survey that found that Eurasian ancestry predominates even and southern Egypt.

old comment by

“Uh, have you heard of Leopold II?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa#Colonization_of_the_Congo

Or the Second Boer War?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War

Or the Herero Genocide?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide

Now not all European colonizers did things like that, as the colonizers had differing policies, but there are more examples.”

Leopold wanted to make money off the Congo. He didn’t try to engage in genocide against the natives.
Also, the Herero and the Belgian Congo were not very advanced at the time of the European conquest, which took place in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. The massacres didn’t do them any good but they don’t explain why these peoples were backwards.

“The Europeans had been gradually monopolizing control of African trade since the 16th and 17th century. As they pushed farther inland when they dominated the peoples they took ownership of the land leaving Africans basically as squatters on their own (well, previously) land. “

You first told me that the Africans were able to stand up to the invading Europeans until the 18th/19th centuries. Now you tell me that European encroachment inland and on the coast explains why Africans became backwards from the 17th century onwards?

“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_slave_trade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa »

That’s what I said. The Scramble for Africa took place in the final decades of the 19th century.

It’s also quite ironic. A lot of the African kingdoms that you cited in a laudatory tone sold quite a lot of slaves.

old comment by

“In the 19th century most African land was owned by Europeans. You can't do all that much when you don't own your own land a good portion of your population is being used for chattel slavery. Ownership is VERY important for building an economy and progress. »

Direct European control of the interior really started in the second half of the 19th century. The continent was already decisively outclassed at the time. The only region that managed to fend off the invaders was Ethiopia, and it wasn’t due to superior technology.

“Knowing of something is different from colonizing it.”

Never claimed they colonized it.

“If they were fishermen off the coast of the island that would be different from inhabiting the island. »

I’m not sure I fully understand your point. As I interpret it, the Wikipedia articles states that fishermen may have drifted to the islands because of the winds and currents but that there is no evidence of that.

“A war barge is not the same thing as a pirogue. “

I didn’t say that.

“This is an image of an abandoned war barge that was washed ashore or ran ashore:

http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his311/archives/pix/koulikor.gif

It's not that much smaller than those Viking ships. This may not be their largest type either. »

I found the original page. First, it doesn’t say that this is a war barge. Second, the last traditional wars in the areas were probably fought in at some point in the 19th century and I doubt this boat is 100+ years old. Third, this has nothing to do with Mali being one of the biggest maritime powers of the Middle Ages.

“Shaka Zulu was pretty influential in some of the social and military organization of modern South Africa.”
How is that relevant to my earlier point?

old comment by

“My point exactly. I could go on listing places from other countries in Africa.”

Somalia has been without a real government for two decades. The other countries are not like that.

“Such as? Name them. »

You cited Mogadishu. A number of neighborhoods and official buildings date from the Italian period even though I doubt many still stand. Mogadishu used to have a cathedral and a large Italian cemetery but I think these were destroyed.

“Are you talking about people like this?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/79/243687258_9aa4913162.jpg

http://mylondondiary.co.uk/2005/12/09/051209_d0522.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41378000/jpg/_41378167_ap_ethiopians_300.jpg

Genetically they're just as black as other Africans. If you're referring to Berbers there aren't many Berbers in these countries.

You're starting to sound like a racialist. »

I thought genes weren’t meaningful?

A lot of these people don’t have negroid features or look diluted. They are clearly different from the rest.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1180/544190074_80c3b42903.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Agordatmen.jpg

old comment by

“1) Parts of it were. Not the whole thing.
2) Actually Augustine did live in Rome.”

1) He was born in the Roman province of Africa, in modern-day northeast Algeria.
2) So?

“Blacks have conquered and ventured into the Middle East on more than one occasion. One I mentioned earlier, which you stopped contesting, being the conquest of Egypt and parts of the Middle/Near East during the 25th Dynasty. Though in the case of the Zanj most were slaves.”

Which means that he probably wasn’t referring to them.

“1) No such thing really as "Negroid".
2) Yemenis are not a monolithic peoples. Some Yeminis are Afro-Arabs: »

Look at my post, I didn’t say that there were no people of black origin in the Middle East. I said that having a dark or heavily tanned skin doesn’t imply an African origin.

“Given there's no such thing as a "blackness gene" or "whiteness gene" or "Arabness gene" that's why I just consider people whatever they call themselves. At least culturally. Berbers are in Africa yet they don't consider themselves black even though genetically they're more or less as closely related to them as they are to Mediterra »

You claim that this guy was really black in spite of his predominantly Arab ancestry and that genes are inconclusive and a few posts earlier you claim that the people of North Sudan are really black even though they consider themselves Arab. You can’t have it both ways.

“The hand cannon was the predecessor of the matchlock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket#Asia”

I said that the first gunpowder weapons were not native to Europe.

You tried to claim that rifles and muskets were not native to Europe and now you are trying to switch the goalposts yourself.

old comment by

“Based on what? »

Here’s the intro: “Welcome to Black Jade World: An on-line Afrocentric journal dedicated to the study of African peoples in ancient China.”

The guy who owns the website is also a self-described Afrocentrist and activist. He also apparently wrote an article in an Afrocentrist newsletter called “Was Buddha black?”, which makes me think that he’s also a kook.

I skimmed through some of the articles. I could be wrong but it seems that you took a lot of your sources from this website.

“1) The wording used was a general word that non-Africans used for the Swahili coast. They don't necessarily literally mean Zanzibar. Arabs and Persians sometimes referred to Kilwa and Mogadishu as words akin to "Zanzibar". »

That’s not what your website says. This is again speculation.

“2) The Swahilis also used Zanzibar as a trading outpost:”

“Starting about 1800, the rulers of Zanzibar organized trading expeditions into the interior of the mainland, up to the various lakes in the continent's Great Rift Valley. They soon established permanent trade routes and Swahili speaking merchants settled in stops along the new trade routes. For the most part, this process did not lead to genuine colonization. But colonisation did occur west of Lake Malawi, in what is now Katanga Province of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, giving rise to a highly divergent dialect.”

The Swahili outposts mentioned in the article were situated along the trade routes of inland Africa.

“You also ignored things like physical descriptions of these travelers and drawings of them. »

The drawing at the top is not an original. It’s a sketch of what they say is a Chinese miniature figure of a Swahili sailor from Zanzibar. The “historian” who referenced the figure is apparently an obscure writer affiliated with the website who published a few afrocentric books.

The articles also provide no physical description of these sailors.

old comment by

“I'm not sure what this claim is based on as there is ample record of ocean-going Swahili ships, such as merchant ships and cargo liners in Somalia:
In fact Somalia was a hydraulic empire. »

Somalia wasn’t part of the Swahili culture.

“Where? In Zanzibar? Yes. There is no record of Arab and Persian immigrants being a major demographic of Kilwa, Sofala, Mogadishu, Mombasa, etc. If so where are the records and where are these people now? »

The East African coast was dominated in good part by the sultanate of Zanzibar. The “Swahili” article also mentions the intermarriage of native blacks and Arabs and there are still people of Arab descent in East Africa. They were mainly present along the coast and formed an urban elite so of course today the “natives” are way more numerous. This journalist mentions that a substantial number of people on the coast are of Arab descent:
http://allafrica.com/stories/201003011024.html

“I can't find any references of "shenzi" though independent of that one reference. The same source which claims most East African settlements were inhabited by Arabs and Persians seems to be based chiefly on the fact that the region is mostly Islamic. It seems to be conflating the Islamic religion with Arabic/Persian ethnicity.»

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilwa_Kisiwani
In the 11th century, the island of Kilwa Kisiwani was sold to a Persian trader Ali bin Al-Hasan, who founded the city and the Kilwa Sultanate. Over the next few centuries, Kilwa grew to be a major city and trading centre along that coast, with overlordship and inland as far as Zimbabwe.

The article about the sultanate itself mentions that its founder was reportedly driven out of Mogadishu by the city’s “Arab elite”. I don’t necessarily take all of these old stories literally and I think that most inhabitants of these coastal areas were Bantus but all this consistently points to a significant Middle Eastern element, especially among the trading elite.

old comment by Vox

"Your link redirects me towards a google search with lots of unrelated content."

I'll narrow it down.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/180904

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=1BAD9458D1379B3C31D9F8B2E473542C.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=3235476

This source goes into detail explaining why gold mining in the region is not at the level it was previously. (I'm not sure if you can read the whole article from your computer)

Leo Africanus' source and this source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6pEM6ueisqEC&pg=PA437&lpg=PA437&dq=The+Lure+of+Bambuk+Gold+PD+Curtin&source=bl&ots=yxrp74eX-S&sig=EdwirAExKG6a1t5ru6MRqEqQ9xU&hl=en&ei=PBVFTNjBOoGC8gbP0bHEDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CC0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=coins&f=false

Talks about the usage of gold coins in the Mali Empire. Though gold dust appeared to be more commonly used than coins.

"And I don’t see how a Portuguese raid would explain why these coins are not found today. They didn’t even raid Timbuktu."

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "raid" but the European imperial powers did drain a significant amount of gold from the area:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ftz_gtO-pngC&pg=PA588&lpg=PA588&dq=Mali+Dutch+gold&source=bl&ots=IuBKtsiuqT&sig=4jIP7OCCzGykmA_5upDecJsPdg4&hl=en&ei=-xZFTMOfJYP48Aap3ojGAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=16&ved=0CGEQ6AEwDw#v=onepage&q=Mali%20Dutch%20gold&f=false

"None of these links say anything about Timbuktu being a banking center."

You can't see them? The Google Books source talks about banking in the Mali/Songhai Empire on page 20. So does the JSTOR link. Maybe you can't see them from your computer.

old comment by Vox

"You previously cited Timbuktu’s trade as evidence of it being an advanced society."

Being a major source of world gold isn't something that every society was back then. Supplying 2/3 of Europe and the Islamic world's gold would make it a pretty wealthy empire. That would be like something akin to being a major oil producing country today. But that's just one aspect of the Mali Empire and that's not the only reason it was an advanced civilization.

"A lot of African constitutions are based on those of the former colonial powers, especially France and Britain. Or at least in theory, practice is often quite different."

Some. African countries' constitutions are usually a mix of colonial laws and traditional laws.

"The fact that Europe was comparatively more isolated during the Middle Ages compared to the Age of Discovery does not mean that the continent was cut off from the rest of the world."

The only parts of Europe during the middle ages that had regular contact with non-European powers was Byzantine, the Italian states and Spain. The Kievan Rus' and Frankish Empire in a more reactionary manner. I would compare their interaction with the outside world to China's interaction with the outside world after between the 14th to 19th century (after China enacted an isolationist policy after Zheng He's voyages).

"The Vikings and the Rus traded with the Middle East in the early Middle Ages and later with the Byzantine Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_trade_route"

Interesting. I hadn't heard about this but the article states it was mainly of importance from the 9th to 11th century. Still medieval times but it was relatively short-lived as it became phased out by Byzantinian trade (according to the article).

old comment by Vox

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem#Economy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Legacy"

The first link mostly talks about Israel's trade. It gives more importance to their trade with the Middle East than with Asia and Europe. The second link is more substantial but contains a line that basically restates something I said earlier:

"Although Europe had been exposed to Islamic culture for centuries through contacts in Iberian Peninsula and Sicily, much knowledge in areas such as science, medicine, and architecture was transferred from the Islamic to the western world during the crusade era."

"Political disputes and even wars seldom prevent people from seeking wealth through trade."

True. But what kind of power one country or region has over the other can dictate on what terms the trade occurs under. Whether it's more of a trade between equal partners or "trade" in the mercantilist sense of an imperial power using the dominated state as a tributary kingdom or satellite state that it uses as a resource warehouse. After the conquest of Africa the trade between Africa and Europe was more along the lines of the latter situation.

"Nubians are not even 1% of Egypt’s population."

I didn't say Nubians.

Black people =/= Nubians

Egypt has always had black people who aren't Nubians.

"You previously cited a survey that found that Eurasian ancestry predominates even and southern Egypt."

Notice I said "blacker". I never said Egypt becomes entirely black.

"Leopold wanted to make money off the Congo. He didn’t try to engage in genocide against the natives."

What do you call this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium#Private_colonialism

Between 2 million to 10 million people were killed under Belgian rule in less than 50 years.

old comment by Vox

"The massacres didn’t do them any good"

Whatever good it did them they still did it anyway. If it doesn't benefit a robber to kill the people they hold up but they still do it anyway they still did it. Regardless of what good it did them.

"but they don’t explain why these peoples were backwards."

Who? The Herero? The Khoisan peoples have always rejected modernization in favor of retaining their native Bronze Age culture. They did this when the Bantu peoples brought Iron Age technology centuries and millennia before.

But the Belgians were also industrializing at the time. Everyone seems backwards to an industrial power. China was backwards compared to Europe at this time (19th and early 20th century).

"Now you tell me that European encroachment inland and on the coast explains why Africans became backwards from the 17th century onwards?"

1) Partially. African poverty today is caused by a variety of reasons.

2) Military might is different from economic wealth, living standards and scientific technology. Even though East Africans gave the Europeans trouble conquering the coasts the European invaders were still wealthier at that time and the African civilizations were still declining.

Because the Africans were able to militarily keep the Europeans from pushing far inland until the 18th and mid-19th century doesn't mean that colonialism/imperialism wasn't hurting their economies. African economies almost universally went into decline when European powers started conquering the coasts and monopolizing trade in the 17th and 18th century.

"It’s also quite ironic. A lot of the African kingdoms that you cited in a laudatory tone sold quite a lot of slaves."

When did I deny that? Greece and Rome were advanced civilizations but heavily engaged in slavery as well.

old comment by Vox

"Direct European control of the interior really started in the second half of the 19th century."

It's not like European conquest didn't disrupt the economies prior to the 19th century. Do you think the Europeans and Africans just sat around sipping tea and playing cards before then? If you read about these places there is a distinct decline as the Portuguese, Dutch, etc. took over their coastal trade and relegated them to economic autarky.

You can see the same effect on the Roman economy during its conquest by the so-called "barbarian" tribes and Byzantine's economy during its gradual domination at the hands of the Turks. What do you think happens when you take over someone else's land and start monopolizing their resources?

"I’m not sure I fully understand your point."

If fisherman just fished near the coast of the island but didn't inhabit the island it wouldn't leave much trace of them.

"I found the original page. First, it doesn’t say that this is a war barge. Second, the last traditional wars in the areas were probably fought in at some point in the 19th century and I doubt this boat is 100+ years old. Third, this has nothing to do with Mali being one of the biggest maritime powers of the Middle Ages. "

1) I just checked. It said "river barge". Which would mean it's not even the biggest type of ship used there.

http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his311/archives/helpers/geog-pic.htm#rrmap

2) How would you gather the barge is from the 19th century?

3) You said "barge" dismissively as if they just had little paddle-boats. The ship in the picture is not much smaller than the ships the Vikings used to menace Western Europe and sail to Greenland.

"How is that relevant to my earlier point?"

You were talking about influence. said fame is not the same thing as influence. I agreed. Shaka Zulu is an example of someone I think probably influenced South Africa as much as or more than Thomas Aquinas.

old comment by Vox

"1) He was born in the Roman province of Africa, in modern-day northeast Algeria.
2) So?"

You implied he spent most of his life in North Africa. Here:

"No, because North Africa was then a romanized and Christian region and that the Catholic Church is historically a Western institution."

"Which means that he probably wasn’t referring to them."

Who? The Nubians or the Zanj? The "Zanj" were transported to the Middle East in pretty significant numbers. Hence referring to a "tribe" of them isn't really extraordinary. You don't see as many today because they've been mostly absorbed into the Arabic population. There is no one else he would have been referring to other than Afro-Arabs in the region because no one else in the Middle East is described as "black" or having "black skin".

"I said that having a dark or heavily tanned skin doesn’t imply an African origin."

Arabs don't refer to themselves or each other as "black". Nor do they refer to Berbers that way either. There's no one really in the region with black skin other than blacks and Afro-Arabs.

"You claim that this guy was really black in spite of his predominantly Arab ancestry and that genes are inconclusive and a few posts earlier you claim that the people of North Sudan are really black even though they consider themselves Arab."

1) I only called Al-Jahiz black because that's what he called himself.

2) As well as being an ethnicity "Arab" is also a political and cultural identity in the Islamic world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization

"You tried to claim that rifles and muskets were not native to Europe"

I said there is evidence European rifles and muskets may have been inspired by rifle-like Asian weapons.

"The other countries are not like that."

Like half the countries in Africa don't have stable governments. Governments but not stable, democratic and transparent ones.

old comment by Vox

"You cited Mogadishu. A number of neighborhoods and official buildings date from the Italian period even though I doubt many still stand. Mogadishu used to have a cathedral and a large Italian cemetery but I think these were destroyed."

Oh. I was mostly referring to buildings built from ancient to medieval times. There is a sharp decline in native African construction from the 1700s until the early-to-mid-20th century.

"I thought genes weren’t meaningful?"

I didn't say that. I simply said that "Negroid" is something that genetically exists. Nor is "Caucasoid" or "Mongoloid" or "Austroloid". Those are 19th century pseudoscientific crano-facial and linguistic constructs. You can't necessarily tell who is more closely related to who by facial features and skin color.

"A lot of these people don’t have negroid features or look diluted. They are clearly different from the rest."

The vast majority of them are not mixed and genetically they're most closely related to sub-Saharan Africans. They're about as black as everyone else in the continent with black/dark brown skin.

The reason they have features like that is because they're likely the first people on Earth to evolve those features.

Everyone can trace their history back to Africa. The so-called "Caucasian" peoples of the world are likely descendants of these people and took these features into Eurasia with them. For example: you can find peoples in southern Africa who look very Asiatic, such as the Khoisan people. You'd swear up and down they must be part-Asian but they're black like everyone else. The Khoisan are actually some of the most unmixed people in Africa.

old comment by Vox

"He also apparently wrote an article in an Afrocentrist newsletter called “Was Buddha black?”, which makes me think that he’s also a kook."

Lol Now that you mention it you're right. I looked around and he does seem to be something of a quack. However, that particular article cites legitimate contemporary and modern historical sources. I could independently verify the quotes he used.

"That’s not what your website says. This is again speculation."

I'm not basing that on the website. I was actually basing that on the Wikipedia article about "Zanj".

"The Swahili outposts mentioned in the article were situated along the trade routes of inland Africa."

It said they stretched from Zanzibar itself to the inland. Though Zanzibar was hardly the only trading outpost Swahili sailors used. I would say Somalia was more central for Swahili sailors than Zanzibar. Zanzibar was more central for Arab and Persian merchants sailing to the region.

"The “historian” who referenced the figure is apparently an obscure writer affiliated with the website who published a few afrocentric books."

I dunno about the creator of that drawing but this is not an obscure Afrocentric source:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page45.shtml

Nor are the sources cited here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_history_of_Somalia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Zimbabwe#Trade

old comment by Vox

"Somalia wasn’t part of the Swahili culture."

Yes it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#The_rise_of_Swahili_to_regional_prominence

"The East African coast was dominated in good part by the sultanate of Zanzibar."

There is not much evidence of that. That claim seems to originate from this article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zanzibar

where it says "The Sultan of Zanzibar controlled a substantial portion of the East African coast, known as Zanj, and extensive inland trading routes."

(hey, that corroborates what I was saying about the word "Zanj")

But:

1) Doesn't state how much of the East African coast;
2) Doesn't cite any sources.

I looked here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_of_Zanzibar

The Sultanate's power seems to be mostly focused on the Tanzanian coastline and the interior trade route from the coast of Tanzania to the interior of Congo. It also was apparently a tributary-type rule as the Kongo Kingdom and the civilizations of Tanzania have no significant Arab or Persian demographics.

The Sultanate only lasted from ~1700 to the mid-19th century. It can't account for East African Swahili trade from the first millennium CE to the 17th century.

"They were mainly present along the coast and formed an urban elite"

There is no mention of an urban elite of Arabs and Persians in East Africa outside of Zanzibar and Kilwa. Look up the history of Mogadishu, Mombasa, Sofala, etc. I think the former two areas is where their actual presence was centered.

old comment by Vox

"This journalist mentions that a substantial number of people on the coast are of Arab descent"

He didn't cite a source and there is no mention of a big physical Arab population other than the cultural impact of Swahili interactions with Arabs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_World#Arab_Africa

Most of the actual intermarriage and physical Arab and Persian population seems to be fixated in Zanzibar and Kilwa.

That would be about like saying Spaniards should be considered ethnically North African or Middle Eastern because of their interactions with and cultural-linguistic influences by the Moors. There is even some Moorish genetic mixture in parts of the Spanish population but it's probably fair to consider Spaniards primarily European ethnically. Maybe more "Mediterranean" culturally however.

I think this article kind of sums up better what I'm trying to get across:

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ht/36.1/gilbert.html

The paragraphs "Regions and Periods: Bentley and Manning" and "Regions and the Historiography of Coastal East Africa" especially.

"but all this consistently points to a significant Middle Eastern element, especially among the trading elite."

Of course there's no denying there was a Middle Eastern element. I was saying there isn't evidence that the majority of the East African coast and trade was controlled by them though. Their power was primarily focused in a particular area.

I would compare their scope in East Africa to the Moorish presence in Spain during the Almohad Dynasty.

old comment by

« I'll narrow it down.

This source goes into detail explaining why gold mining in the region is not at the level it was previously. (I'm not sure if you can read the whole article from your computer)

Leo Africanus' source and this source:

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "raid" but the European imperial powers did drain a significant amount of gold from the area:

You can't see them? The Google Books source talks about banking in the Mali/Songhai Empire on page 20. So does the JSTOR link. Maybe you can't see them from your computer.»

I can’t access the articles without paying. And the fact that the gold mines were exhausted doesn’t explain why coins are not found inside and outside of Mali. If the region really was a big medieval financial center these would still be relatively common. Venetian ducats are still found today throughout the trade routes even though the Venetian region was not a big producer of gold. These unminted coins could have been used as a form of standardized payment system for the merchants of Timbuktu but I don’t think there was banking on a scale comparable to what developed in Italy or the Netherlands for instance.

“Being a major source of world gold isn't something that every society was back then. Supplying 2/3 of Europe and the Islamic world's gold would make it a pretty wealthy empire. That would be like something akin to being a major oil producing country today. But that's just one aspect of the Mali Empire and that's not the only reason it was an advanced civilization.”

Apparently the region went bust when gold output declined and alternative sources were found. They also obviously weren’t able to integrate the recent technologies of their partners from Europe and the Arab world.
I was also unable to find a source stating that they had a retirement system.

old comment by

“The only parts of Europe during the middle ages that had regular contact with non-European powers was Byzantine, the Italian states and Spain. The Kievan Rus' and Frankish Empire in a more reactionary manner. I would compare their interaction with the outside world to China's interaction with the outside world after between the 14th to 19th century (after China enacted an isolationist policy after Zheng He's voyages). »

The Russian trade with the Middle East far predates the Mongol invasions. The Franks repelled an Arab invasion in the 8th century and established kingdoms the Middle East about 300 years later, in the 11th century. That’s not being reactive. The Knights Templar were also a military order initially based in Jerusalem and France which expanded across Europe and the Middle East and evolved into a banking and trading network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Knights_Templar#Bankers

“Interesting. I hadn't heard about this but the article states it was mainly of importance from the 9th to 11th century. Still medieval times but it was relatively short-lived as it became phased out by Byzantinian trade (according to the article). »

That’s about three centuries.

“The first link mostly talks about Israel's trade. It gives more importance to their trade with the Middle East than with Asia and Europe. The second link is more substantial but contains a line that basically restates something I said earlier: “

Israel is modern country that didn’t exist at the time. The article is about the Kingdom of Jerusalem, one of the Crusader States.

“True. But what kind of power one country or region has over the other can dictate on what terms the trade occurs under.[snip]”

Perhaps, but that’s not very relevant to medieval trade in the Middle East. The crusaders sometimes extracted a tribute from the neighboring states but that was common practice at the time.

old comment by

“What do you call this?»

It probably doesn’t make much of a difference for those who died, but “genocide” and “tried to wipe out” imply a deliberate attempt to exterminate a population. These deaths were more of a by-product of the economic exploitation of the region.

“Whatever good it did them they still did it anyway.»

« Them » referred to the Africans, as in “the massacres inflicted harm upon them but they don’t explain why they were already backwards when the Belgians or Germans came”. I should have formulated that differently.

“Who? The Herero? The Khoisan peoples have always rejected modernization in favor of retaining their native Bronze Age culture.”

Did they make a deliberate and concerted decision not to adopt more modern technologies or were they just marginalized? I remember reading that these people occupied much of Austral Africa until they were driven out or killed by other African groups.

“1) Partially. African poverty today is caused by a variety of reasons.
2) Military might is different from economic wealth, living standards and scientific technology.
Because the Africans were able to militarily keep the Europeans from pushing far inland until the 18th and mid-19th century doesn't mean that colonialism/imperialism wasn't hurting their economies. African economies almost universally went into decline when European powers started conquering the coasts and monopolizing trade in the 17th and 18th century. »

A lot of West African kingdoms developed and expanded thanks to the trade with the Europeans and the more modern tools and weapons they brought with them. The Mali region went into decline in good part because their exports became less sought, not because Europeans started oppressing them.
Furthermore, many of the groups, such as the two that you cited, that had little contact with the Europeans fared even worse when the Scramble for Africa began.

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“When did I deny that? Greece and Rome were advanced civilizations but heavily engaged in slavery as well.”

You’re king of praising the African slave-sellers while at the same time accusing the European and Arab slave-buyers of ruining Africa.

“It's not like European conquest didn't disrupt the economies prior to the 19th century. Do you think the Europeans and Africans just sat around sipping tea and playing cards before then? If you read about these places there is a distinct decline as the Portuguese, Dutch, etc. took over their coastal trade and relegated them to economic autarky. [snip] »

See above. The wiki articles about the West African kingdoms also mention that in the case of the Dahomey pretty much all land and trade belonged to the king. I don’t know if things were that extreme in the other states but internal reasons like the lack of well-defined private property probably explain a lot of the historical problems of the region.

“If fisherman just fished near the coast of the island but didn't inhabit the island it wouldn't leave much trace of them.”

The Portuguese and other European travellers would have mentioned it if the islands were a frequent fishing ground for local fishermen.

“1) I just checked. It said "river barge". Which would mean it's not even the biggest type of ship used there. 2) How would you gather the barge is from the 19th century? 3) You said "barge" dismissively as if they just had little paddle-boats. The ship in the picture is not much smaller than the ships the Vikings used to menace Western Europe and sail to Greenland. »

If you look a little bit closely, you’ll see that the barge is obviously of relatively recent construct. It even has a rusty steering wheel near the bow. The place is the terminus of the old colonial railroad and you can see the remains of what appears to be a half-sunken dock right next to it. I think the whole thing is a misunderstanding on your part.

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“You were talking about influence. said fame is not the same thing as influence. I agreed. Shaka Zulu is an example of someone I think probably influenced South Africa as much as or more than Thomas Aquinas. »

Perhaps, but Shaka Zulu only influenced his native Southern Africa.

“You implied he spent most of his life in North Africa. Here: »

He did. He was born in modern-day Algeria, near the coast, moved to Rome when he reached adulthood, converted to Christianity a few years later and went back to his home region and became a bishop. I don’t quite understand the point that you are trying to make.

“Who? The Nubians or the Zanj? The "Zanj" were transported to the Middle East in pretty significant numbers. Hence referring to a "tribe" of them isn't really extraordinary. You don't see as many today because they've been mostly absorbed into the Arabic population. There is no one else he would have been referring to other than Afro-Arabs in the region because no one else in the Middle East is described as "black" or having "black skin". »

The zanj were mostly slaves. Some of them were freed but he was talking about a whole tribe who later moved to the Maghreb:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Sulaym
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization#Banu_Sulaym_in_North_Africa_1049Ad

He also said that it was the local environment and the heavy sun that gave them their darker complexion and claimed that the animals in the regions were also black for the same reason. If these people had merely been former black Africans slaves then he wouldn’t have said that.

old comment by

“Arabs don't refer to themselves or each other as "black". Nor do they refer to Berbers that way either. There's no one really in the region with black skin other than blacks and Afro-Arabs. »

http://www.photographiceye.nl/images/sinai%20bedouin%208b.jpg

http://www.andreaswallach.com/beduin.jpg

http://www.awasu.com/weblog/content/yemen/yemeni.jpeg

Arabs typically favour light skin so many avoid sun exposure and outdoors work, especially in the wealthy oil-producing countries. These people are mostly from the Sinai and Yemen (which are poorer) and they are much more tanned.

Most afro-arabs are descendants of Bantus slaves and don’t look like that:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/038WgAe5aO8hA/610x.jpg

http://www.playahata.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/blackiraq.jpg

“1) I only called Al-Jahiz black because that's what he called himself.

2) As well as being an ethnicity "Arab" is also a political and cultural identity in the Islamic world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabization »

You are contradicting yourself. You cited him as a black and African scholar because you said that he considered himself as such but at the same time you claim that the populations of North-East Africa who don’t consider themselves black and despise the “blacker” Bantus and Zanj of the south are really black because you want to claim their accomplishments.

old comment by

“I said there is evidence European rifles and muskets may have been inspired by rifle-like Asian weapons.”

No, when I mentioned that modern artillery and firearms were mostly the work of Europeans you said that Europeans may have learned how to make rifles from the Chinese. You then switched to matchlock muskets and then just “rifle-like” weapons.

“Like half the countries in Africa don't have stable governments. Governments but not stable, democratic and transparent ones. »

Ethiopia is one of the most represented countries on the list and it has been a basket case for decades. The government killed hundreds of protesters in 2005, there are several ongoing ethnic rebellions in the countryside and the Prime Minister and his allies got reelected with more than 95% of the votes.

“I didn't say that. I simply said that "Negroid" is something that genetically exists. Nor is "Caucasoid" or "Mongoloid" or "Austroloid". Those are 19th century pseudoscientific crano-facial and linguistic constructs. You can't necessarily tell who is more closely related to who by facial features and skin color. »

I can certainly tell an African Bantu from a Swede.

old comment by

“For example: you can find peoples in southern Africa who look very Asiatic, such as the Khoisan people. You'd swear up and down they must be part-Asian but they're black like everyone else. The Khoisan are actually some of the most unmixed people in Africa. »

These people don’t look Asian and they are genetically distinct from their Bantu neighbors.

“Lol Now that you mention it you're right. I looked around and he does seem to be something of a quack. However, that particular article cites legitimate contemporary and modern historical sources. I could independently verify the quotes he used. »

As I said the sketch of the figure is from a book written by another dubious author and the contemporary Chinese quotes don’t mention the ethnicity of the travellers.

“I'm not basing that on the website. I was actually basing that on the Wikipedia article about "Zanj".”

And I was originally talking about the afrocentrist website. I said “They also cite the sultanate of Zanzibar, which was a Persian and Arab outpost”.

“It said they stretched from Zanzibar itself to the inland. Though Zanzibar was hardly the only trading outpost Swahili sailors used. I would say Somalia was more central for Swahili sailors than Zanzibar.»

There are maps of the Swahili coast available on Google. The borders are of course somewhat arbitrary but they don’t usually stop in northern Kenya or sometimes southern Somalia and don’t include Mogadishu. Swahili is a bantu language and it is not commonly spoken in coastal Somalia.

old comment by

“I dunno about the creator of that drawing but this is not an obscure Afrocentric source: "

They say that Zimbabwe was part of a trade network linked to the coastal sultanate of Kilwa and that extended to China. They don’t say that the Zimbabweans or the coastal Bantus travelled to China.

“Yes it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#The_rise_of_Swahili_to_regional_prominenc”

See above. The article mentions that the Swahili traded with Mogadishu and that the Swahili language and cultures were present in the city, but Somalia wasn’t a Swahili state and Mogadishu a Swahili city.

“There is not much evidence of that. That claim seems to originate from this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zanzibar

where it says "The Sultan of Zanzibar controlled a substantial portion of the East African coast, known as Zanj, and extensive inland trading routes."
(hey, that corroborates what I was saying about the word "Zanj")

But:
1) Doesn't state how much of the East African coast;
2) Doesn't cite any sources.

I looked here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_of_Zanzibar
The Sultanate's power seems to be mostly focused on the Tanzanian coastline and the interior trade route from the coast of Tanzania to the interior of Congo. It also was apparently a tributary-type rule as the Kongo Kingdom and the civilizations of Tanzania have no significant Arab or Persian demographics. »

Where did I say that Arabs ruled the interior? I said that they formed a trading and urban elite in Zanzibar and along the coast.

old comment by

“The Sultanate only lasted from ~1700 to the mid-19th century. It can't account for East African Swahili trade from the first millennium CE to the 17th century. »

Zanzibar was founded before that and became an independent sultanate much later.

“There is no mention of an urban elite of Arabs and Persians in East Africa outside of Zanzibar and Kilwa. Look up the history of Mogadishu, Mombasa, Sofala, etc. I think the former two areas is where their actual presence was centered.”

http://www.mombasainfo.com/about-mombasa/history-culture/history-of-mombasa/

Due to its strategically important position, many other groups of traders sought to impose their dominance on the town, and it was continually fought over by various trading nations all through its history. The Arab influence on Mombasa has been significant, and prominent at various times in the town’s history. Arab traders were known to sail down around to the Kenya coast from the first century AD onwards, and this gave rise to heightened trade along the coast. The Arabs continued to build trade linkages along the Kenyan coast, and Mombasa and Lamu still exhibit the remnants of the dominance of Arab culture during this era.
The dominance of Arab influence on Mombasa was suppressed for about 150 years when the Portuguese arrived.

old comment by

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Kenya#Early_Kenyan_civilizations
Arab traders began frequenting the Kenya coast around the 1st century C.E. (Common Era). Kenya's proximity to the Arabian Peninsula invited trade and later colonization. Between the first and the fifth centuries C.E., Greek merchants from Egypt had some stake in the trade.[3] About 500 C.E. traders from the Persian Gulf, southern India and Indonesia made contact with East Africa.[4] Trade led to establishment of commercial posts.[5] Eventually, these commercial posts became Arab and Persian city-states along the coast. By the 8th century these city-states tended to have rulers that had accepted Islam.[6] Muslim traders had little incentive to go beyond the coast into the interior of Africa. The goods they soughtgold from the mines of Rhodesia, ivory, slaves, tortoise shell and rhinoceros horncould more conveniently be gathered by local people in the interior and sold to the traders at the coasts during seasonal markets.

“He didn't cite a source and there is no mention of a big physical Arab population other than the cultural impact of Swahili interactions with Arabs.”

This guy is an African who writes about contemporary Kenya and he didn’t talk about a big population (and neither did I).

“[snip]Of course there's no denying there was a Middle Eastern element. I was saying there isn't evidence that the majority of the East African coast and trade was controlled by them though. Their power was primarily focused in a particular area. »

Originally, this conversation was about whether or not black Africans were responsible for most of the shipping towards India, the Middle East and China. So far, what I have seen makes me think that Arab and Persian traders originally linked the region to international trade and that a series of Arab-influenced states developed along the coast to supply these long distance merchants with goods that were later transported outside of the region.

old comment by Vox

"These people don’t look Asian and they are genetically distinct from their Bantu neighbors."

They look fairly Asiatic to me.

http://mysouthafrica.biz/khoisan.jpg

http://www.francesbaard.gov.za/tourism/imgs/photos/Bushman.jpg

http://www.nma.gov.au/shared/libraries/images/temporary_exhibitions/extremes/extremes_large/africa/portrait_of_a_khoisan_man_northern_cape/files/6400/nma.img-ex20042116-266-vi-vs1.jpg

Yes, they are genetically distinct from Bantus but they're still mostly closely related to sub-Saharan Africans (I know they're not Asian).

"As I said the sketch of the figure is from a book written by another dubious author and the contemporary Chinese quotes don’t mention the ethnicity of the travellers."

The article uses sources such as Basil Davidson, Louise Levathes and Zheng He's reports of his travels to Malindi.

"Swahili is a bantu language and it is not commonly spoken in coastal Somalia."

It's also a culture. Anyway, you and I both know that linguistic flow changes over time. Celtic languages were once common in what's now France. Not anymore.

old comment by Vox

"And the fact that the gold mines were exhausted doesn’t explain why coins are not found inside and outside of Mali."

According to Leo Africanus the coin of Timbuktu was made of gold without any stamp or superscription. It would be fairly difficult to tell its specifically Malian, wouldn't it?

"Venetian ducats are still found today throughout the trade routes even though the Venetian region was not a big producer of gold."

What you said here is key. The Venetian Empire was involved in currency trade. Not so much currency production. Mali was bigger on production than trade.

"I don’t think there was banking on a scale comparable to what developed in Italy or the Netherlands for instance."

If you're talking about scale I think you're probably correct in stating that the Mali/Songhai Empire was probably not as big of a banking region as the Italian city-states.

"Apparently the region went bust when gold output declined and alternative sources were found."

Something similar happened to Spain and Portugal. That will happen to oil states when oil dries up too.

"They also obviously weren’t able to integrate the recent technologies of their partners from Europe and the Arab world."

Their decline in the 17th to 19th century had more economic decline than having to do with technology (I don't know what "recent technology" of the Arabs you're referring to). From the 19th century onward technology was probably a big reason.