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Not fundie, just silly.
7/10/2010 9:35:28 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how many straight men are painfully obsessed with every tiny aspect of gay/trans culture. One would almost think...never mind.
7/10/2010 9:41:27 PM
Seems to me more women should be interested in becoming male... after all, they'd be part of the privileged class then and wouldn't have to deal with sexism.
7/10/2010 9:47:03 PM
Really depends on the trans person. I think you've only seen a few drag shows not actually researched trans people.
7/10/2010 10:59:40 PM
"I'll notice that this transsexual culture/debate/phenomenon has never appeared as strong as when feminism was really shoved down the throats of all women and men."
And yet the radical feminists at AROOO hate transexuals.....
7/10/2010 11:38:00 PM
Many of them actually blend in really well.
What is "true casual"? Isn't casual dress pretty much just "whatever the fuck you want so long as you don't break any laws in the process"?
Also, what does any of this have to do with a goddamn Star Wars forum?
7/10/2010 11:43:04 PM
> They don't seem to aim for a true casual style of dressing. That's, at least, from the impression I get for everything I've seen and heard about them.
And fundamentalists seem to spend 100% of their time spouting nothing but bigotry, hate and thinly veiled disapproving fantasising in the interwebs. That's, at least, the impression I get from everything I've seen and heard about them. Well, I usually only read FSTDT, but still - just as representative sample as this guy obviously has.
7/10/2010 11:52:15 PM
So what you're saying is that feminism is to blame for men wanting to cross dress or actually become women themselves.
I would like to see a peer reviewed study on this.
7/11/2010 12:16:31 AM
I'm a trans woman. Let me tell you, the last thing any of us wants to do is draw attention to ourselves. We want to blend in. I'm sure there are some people who want to flaunt a sexuality that isn't their natural one, but they are not the norm among transsexuals.
And about the word "tranny": I know you conservatives hate the PC police, but it really is an offensive term, not least because it treats transsexuals, transvestites, and other transgender people as one homogeneous group, which is of course not true. Worse yet, it makes it easy for people to forget that there even are different groups. Are you talking exclusively about transsexuals? I can't even tell.
And a tip for trans allies in this thread: There's recently been a movement to write "trans man" and "trans woman" as two words, because a trans man is a type of man, not a special thing called a "transman." Ditto for trans women. Also, Firefox is telling me that "transman" isn't a word, and if Firefox says it, it must be true! ;)
7/11/2010 12:44:36 AM
"We often hear about men going women more than the other way round"
Right, because trans women are more scandalous in our partriarchal world. A woman wanted to be a man? Oh ho! Of course, because being a man is so wonderful and privileged, but a man wanting to be a lowly woman? Blasphemy!
You know why you see more scantily clad outrageous trans women in the media? Because they also make for more interesting and scandalous reading/viewing. After all who wants to know about a trans woman like me who wears t-shirts, jeans and hoodies nearly all the time?
As for those you see on the street? You only know they're trans because they don't have the luxury of passing so well. Those who do, well you wouldn't even know it. So don't think you have the full gammut of trans experience from casual viewing, because by criminy fuck you will get it WRONG!
7/11/2010 12:53:07 AM
I'm trans too. All most trans women want is to get peacefully on with our lives. And a little thing called equal rights.
Here's a thought to worry you in the small hours. The default foetal state is female. Every man on this planet is a transgendered female.
You're just frightened of women, aren't you?
7/11/2010 1:38:17 AM
The main issue i have with transmen/women is that they seem to be under the impression that their rights are being trammeled because they are not seen as the same as normal women.
Well the truth is that a few operations and some hormone treatment does not make somebody a woman or man it mearly superficially alters their outward apearance to the point they can pass as one.
7/11/2010 1:53:39 AM
@ Howler Monkey
The point is that trans women are psychologically female already, when they have the external changes to make them outwardly female as well the only thing that's missing is the ability to bear children, treating them as 'men in surgically-enhanced drag' is a suppression of their rights, because that isn't what they are, they are, to all intents and purposes female.
7/11/2010 2:07:30 AM
You're right, of course. Hormones can't make a cisgender man into a woman. They can only make a trans woman into herself. That's what you meant, yes?
And our rights aren't being "trammeled" by people on the street looking away--it's when we're denied legal recognition of our rightful genders, when we're fired from our jobs for being who we are, when we're denied medical care because insurance companies can legally ignore us, and when those who murder us walk away from the courtroom whistling.
But please, feel free to judge people you don't know on issues you've never had to experience. And don't ever stop to wonder why we would endure painful and expensive surgeries, years of therapy, and tremendous social stigma just to live a lie.
7/11/2010 2:10:01 AM
Meh. If mentally disturbed poeple want to have surgery to reinforce their delusions, let 'em. It's their money.
7/11/2010 2:41:13 AM
Howler Monkey, if someone who was born biologically a man or a woman feels like the opposite on the inside (and studies have shown that trans-gendered people even have brains more similar in structure to their true gender), and they physically alter themselves so they look like their true gender- why aren't they that gender? What makes a "real" man or a "real" woman if not the desire to be a man/woman, the brain of a man/woman, and the physical body of a man/woman?
7/11/2010 2:56:07 AM
Transwoman may have some feminine psycological characteristics and then get a few operations but that does not make them the same as a woman.
And saying so is not hurting their rights as a human being in any way it is just a accurate description of their circumstances.
Your rightful gender is either a transman or transwoman depending on where you start and finish.
Now i would employ you or anybody else on your personal merits regarding doing the job in question, i would deny you nothing in regards to medical treatment or insurance and i never condone murder.
I read some of the posts on that board the OP i from and one stuck out quite well it basically said that you will not stop social stigma by trying to redefine the dictionary.
Transgenders are now going through the same thing coloured people did but they do not seem to want to accept that they are a transman or transwoman with the equal rights they truely deserve. But are instead trying to force the rest of humanity to see them as someting they are not, ie a natural woman or man.
We did not stop racism by reclassifying all non-white people as white, we did so by showing that all colours and creeds are equal and part of humanity and as such fully deserving of equal human rights.
Science makes the differance.
A transman and transwoman are exactly that, no more and no less just like a black man/woman and white man/woman are accurate descriptions
A man who also happens to be black.
A man who also happens to be white.
A man who also happens to be trans.
When blacks asked for equal rights did they say they wanted to be refered to as white from now on and treated as such or did they say that they were black proud of it and that blacks deserved the same equal rights as whites?.
7/11/2010 3:49:59 AM
The differances between transmen/women and normal men and women are undeniable so to try and deny them is almost like saying that they are some how morally or socially wrong ect. That sort of attitude does not bring about good social reforms, the true acceptance of perfectly natural differances within our species or enlightenment for humanities future.
In fact it actually suppresses them.
7/11/2010 3:50:43 AM
double post sorry.
7/11/2010 3:51:43 AM
This debate actually started as Star Trek vs. Star Wars, then the pro-Star Wars debator revealed she was transexual and these guys started harassing her. For the full story, see here: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=143033
7/11/2010 4:14:12 AM
"This debate actually started as Star Trek vs. Star Wars, then the pro-Star Wars debator revealed she was transexual and these guys started harassing her. For the full story, see here: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=143033 "
There was no harrassment in fact it was serafina HERSELF who joined the board and invited the discussion regarding transexuality and the rights of the individual.
Yes it has touched on some sensative areas but then it is a mature board for intelectual discussion not a soap box for lying drama queens like you.
7/11/2010 4:37:12 AM
@ Howler Monkey
I can see how your policy on the transgender issue is entirely fair, equal treatment with consideration of actual biological circumstances is a reasonable way to deal with it.
Unfortunately people are mostly stupid and prejudiced, and classing transmale/female as separate genders, so there is male, female, transmale, and transfemale just means that they are singled out, a portion of the population will always treat those who are singled out and different to themselves as freaks, and the whole point is to try to stop people treating them that way, so the most effective way to do that is to class them as their assumed gender.
It's a contentious issue, and some people will think that the biological realities dictate, I personally think that if a 'man' is psychologically female, and goes through all the physical and mental pain to become externally female then the very least the rest of us can do is show some respect for what they've been through and treat them as the gender they have endured so much to become.
7/11/2010 5:02:48 AM
Drag queen =/= tranny.
Also, I think you're confusing casual wear with conswrvative clothing.
7/11/2010 5:22:10 AM
@ Howler Monkey
I don't think anyone's trying to same that trans women and cis women are EXACTLY THE SAME. What they are, though is both WOMEN. The same way fertile and infertile women may have some important biological differences, but are both women. The same way cis women and intersex women are both women. The same way feminine women and tomboys are both women, the same way straight and lesbian women are both women. And these groups are all NORMAL women.
Here's something to get your head around: trans women who have not yet undergone surgery, or can't, or don't intend to? Are STILL WOMEN. This is because what makes one a woman or a man is one's GENDER which is psychological and far more than "some feminine psycological (sic) characteristics", not one's (physical) SEX.
Vice versa to all this, of course, for the trans men.
And do stop telling trans people what they OUGHT to be doing and how they SHOULD identify. I have the oddest feeling they know how they feel, what they want and need, better than you ever could, simply because they are the ones in their situation and they actually know what it is like.
The amount of transphobia in these comments truly saddens me. I expect more from FSTDT, I really do.
7/11/2010 5:26:20 AM
@Howler Monkey: How do you define "woman"?
7/11/2010 6:36:09 AM
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