Quote# 74620

[A Mormon explains the real reason for his church's backing of Prop 8, which outlawed gay marriage in California.]

As for the Prop 8 issue, I think the history of polygamy shows why Mormons are so concerned about legislation on marriage and the potential consequences of marriage legislation not going our way. When polygamy was outlawed their were several blatant violations of Mormons’ right to worship freely including the seizing of church property and the government temporarily unincorporating the Church. More recently, news stories reporting how businesspeople in Massachusetts were penalized for not wanting to support same-sex marriage added to Mormon fears that the legalization of same-sex marriage would eventually lead to infringements on our freedom to worship. While the Church hasn’t clearly detailed its motivations for getting involved in Prop 8, my opinion is that the issue was more about protecting religious freedom than discriminating against gays. This fear of violations of our religious freedom stems from numerous historical examples of the government violating Mormons’ religious freedoms combined with modern news stories from places where same-sex marriage is legal. (emphasis added)

socialsaint, Social Worker Latter-day Saint 43 Comments [7/24/2010 12:35:52 PM]
Fundie Index: 42
Submitted By: Robert

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7/24/2010 12:43:19 PM

... what? Making gay marriage legal will cause Mormons to be persecuted ... because Mormons were persecuted because polygamy was illegal?

Logic failure, Captain.

7/24/2010 12:45:16 PM


...Ok, I'm legitimately not sure if I'm understanding what this person is saying. Are they saying that they don't support same-sex marriage because of polygamy, somehow?

I'm so confused.

7/24/2010 12:56:46 PM


7/24/2010 1:11:38 PM


OK....so if polygamy were allowed, they would support same-sex marriage? Is that correct? Because if it is, I'm torn between worrying that they've just dug themselves a deeper hole of trouble and wanting to legalize polygamy just so the other fundies can flip out when they learn that Mormons are all for same-sex marriage (for a price, but still).

7/24/2010 1:14:53 PM


First, it's not all about you. Second, sour grapes. Third, "Don't legislate against our coercive child polygamy but legislate against same sex marriage." You really are fucked in the melon.

7/24/2010 1:17:09 PM


So gays getting married stops you from practicing what part of your religion?

I think someone really needs to think through what they typed and figure out exactly what it is that gay marriage is supposed to stop

7/24/2010 1:32:18 PM


So for polygamists to get the freedom to marry gays can't have the freedom to marry?

Wouldnt supporting gay marriage only help your arguments?

7/24/2010 1:33:27 PM


Thgis is because the Mormons were breaking existing law.

Prop 8 was deliberately introduced to CHANGE existing law which was not being broken, but of which people were legally availing.

The involvement of the the Mormon lunacy in political matters will eventually be fully revealed. Already the NOM people are beiong forced by law to reveal their list of contributors. When this happens I trust that there will be enormous sums of back tax due to the IRS, with interest. Social saint's tithing, and that of all the Saints (so called) will have to be increased to cover this. It will hurt you pockets, I trust.

Lesson: churches should not be involved in political matters!

7/24/2010 1:57:48 PM

But, I'm all for polygamy and gay marriage, and I'm not even Mormon.

7/24/2010 2:00:15 PM

Not that I believe for a second that you really believe your own pathetic rationalizations for your hatred of gays, socialsaint, but this is like a Muslim saying that the outlawing of the denial of education for girls is infringing upon HIS religious freedom.

The instant that the practice of your so-called religion includes the denial of the civil rights of any class of people, it's no longer about you or your rights, it's about the group whose rights you are denying, end of story.

7/24/2010 2:30:32 PM


...does anyone understand this persons logic? How would allowing gays to marry lead to the Mormons being persecuted? Seriously, this is insane troll logic of some form.

7/24/2010 3:01:38 PM



7/24/2010 3:17:02 PM


Okay, I want you to explain something to me: Let's pretend that your neighbor down the street, who you never talk to or do anything with and barely know the name of, is gay and gets married. Now, you tell me how that affects your life or religious freedom in ANY WAY.

7/24/2010 3:36:33 PM


What the fuck freedom are you going to lose by extending freedom to others?

This "freedom of religion" argument is total crap. It seems like to these assholes someone not believing in their particular fairy tale somehow translates into an infringement upon their freedom.

All I can say is WTF.

7/24/2010 4:13:26 PM

I read about the afterlife

Actually, in a weird twist, legalizing gay marriage would, in some cases, support protecting religious freedom. For instance, Episcopalians would gladly marry a gay couple, but they can't. So, this law is actually limiting what the church can and cannot do.

7/24/2010 4:47:14 PM


Giant fail on so many levels.

7/24/2010 5:03:31 PM


How dare those gay people live a life style that doesn't agree with my mythos!


7/24/2010 5:09:30 PM


Oh those silly Mormons with their persecution complex!

7/24/2010 5:18:47 PM


the government temporarily unincorporating the Church.

Not allowing an organization to avoid paying taxes =/= "un-incorporating" it. General Motors pays taxes. Does that mean they've been "un-incorporated"?

To get a tax deduction, a church may not engage in "carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation". There are religious activities, political activities and business activities. Your church only gets a tax deduction for the first of these. When you get involved in the other two, you're no longer just a church; you're also a lobbyist or a business. Then you pay taxes on that part of your activities just like every other lobbyist or business.

Otherwise, General Motors would claim to be a church, too.

7/24/2010 5:20:01 PM


The OP contains a form of language I like to call "ballawallanallatalla" in other words - pure unadulterated bullshit!

7/24/2010 5:54:10 PM


I think I understand socialsaint's argument. It is this:

"Laws against polygamy and laws legalizing gay marriage are both discriminatory against Mormons. The first kind were discriminatory because they curtailed Mormons' rights to practice church-sanctioned polygamy. The second kind are discriminatory because gay marriages are not sanctioned by the Church, and thus Mormon pastors would be forced to recognize same-sex marriage, which is against their religious convictions."

The trouble with this argument is, of course, that no marriage law ever says that individual churches must sanction any marriage at all--only the state has to do that. In other words, separation of church and state would actually work in the favor of conservative Christians in this case. If a law did say that a church had to recognize a marriage, it would almost certainly be declared unconstitutional (specifically a violation of the First Amendment).

Now either conservative Christian voters don't understand this simple idea, or they are lying and genuinely want to prevent gays from having equal rights. Hard to tell. It is reminiscent of James Dobson's objection to the Matthew Shepard Act (which added sexual orientation to the list of protected social groups, meaning that hate crimes against gays would be prosecuted as such): he claimed it would curtail free speech by preventing people (read: him) from speaking out against homosexuality. Never mind that there was a specific clause in the document itself explicitly stating that it is not to infringe on free speech.

I don't know whether these people are willfully ignorant or evil. It's too hard to tell. I don't even know which would be worse.

7/24/2010 6:18:30 PM


Mormons adopted polygamy as a method to protect widows and children. Women weren't allowed to 'own land' when the land deeds were handed out, only men were. So, if their husbands died, they would be shit outta luck. Hence, the polygamy.

No one is telling YOU that YOU have to marry someone of the same gender, and the Mormon Church getting involved with politics means it should lose its tax exempt status.

7/24/2010 6:18:53 PM


So tell me, how are your religious freedoms threatened by allowing homosexuals to marry?

7/24/2010 6:37:05 PM


To be fair to the LDS, their religion at least has a completely internally consistent reason to disapprove of same-sex marriage. It involves their views on the origin of God.

You see, they believe that our God is more like a father (they even use the title "Heavenly Father"). He is literally married to a Heavenly Mother, and we are their children. They believe that our God had his own spiritual father, that he was once like us, and that by following his father's instructions, he attained Godhood. Further, they believe that we can all do the same. That when our time is done, those of us who are judged to be worthy go on to become Gods ourselves and have our own children, both spiritually and physically. They even have a hymn "Families can be together forever".

In short, the heterosexual pairing is at the very core of the religion.

This is also one of the things I like about the LDS. They have a simple, elegant answer to where God came from. Of course, where the first God came from is still unanswered, but with one simple concept, they explain the reason for existing. What happens after we die. All of that is a giant loop.

The funny thing is that a lot of people argue that this makes the LDS polytheistic. It does by the literal English definition of the word, in that they believe there are many people who have attained Godhood. They only worship one, though. The others are all other people's fathers, not ours.

7/24/2010 11:02:19 PM

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