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Quote# 75796

Even the British can see how much of an insult the Victory Mosque is. Can you really be so obtuse as to miss so much deliberate symbolism? What will it take for you to understand their intentions, the builders renaming it that "Death to America Community Center?" Hell, you'd probably STILL defend it in the name of "tolerance". Probably because you DO know what it means, and you LOVE it. This isn't just any Mosque, though the "Religion of Peace (tm)" has such a horrible track record that if it didn't hide behind prayers it would have been eradicated long ago like the tyrannical cancer it was. This mosque is:

*Named after the Muslim conquest of Cordova.
*Situated as close to Ground Zero as they could possibly get, you will even be able to see the hole in the ground from the windows, and you sure as hell will be able to hear the call to prayer from the site.
*Opening on the anniversary of 9/11.

What more do you need, a giant sign saying "FUCK YOU"?

I've got an analogy for you, let's say some far-right Christian group theoretically blew up some really important muslim place, nuked Mecca or something, and (very uncharacteristically I might add, as in this would never happen) Christians around the world danced in the streets and fired AK-47s into the air when they heard the news. Then, they came over to the crater, and said that they were going to build a big, multi-million dollar Catholic cathedral, with huge stained glass windows, a ridiculously tall bell tower, the works, within viewing distance, and close enough that anyone attending the memorial would hear church bells ringing every Sunday. To top it all off, they set the grand opening on the anniversary of the the Mecca's destruction, so they'll be singing hymns and ringing the bell all day. What do you think of that? If you find my example horribly insensitive, then why do you defend the Victory Mosque?

FreedomFox, Moonbattery 67 Comments [9/4/2010 9:46:49 AM]
Fundie Index: 53
Submitted By: DevilsChaplain
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BLAKE THE EUROPEAN!

Religious freedom anyone? Anyone?

Oh...

Granted, it is a little insensitive. There is a quote which kinda sums up my stance...
"I despise you and everything you say, but I would die for your right to say it".

Probably murdered that quote but oh well.

9/4/2010 9:52:51 AM

COVIZAPIBETEFOKY

Why do you think your analogy is anything like the incorrectly called "Ground Zero Mosque"? Have you actually done any research about the "mosque" in question?

9/4/2010 9:55:53 AM

whatever

"I've got an analogy for you, let's say some far-right Christian group theoretically blew up some really important muslim place, nuked Mecca or something, and (very uncharacteristically I might add, as in this would never happen) Christians around the world danced in the streets and fired AK-47s into the air when they heard the news. Then, they came over to the crater, and said that they were going to build a big, multi-million dollar Catholic cathedral, with......"

If it's that uncharacteristic and unlikely then it's not a very good analogy is it?

9/4/2010 10:06:41 AM

Mudak

Actually, for a lot of the talk I've heard coming from other folks on Moonbattery, it would seem to me that nuking Mecca isn't uncharacteristic at all...

But your points need to be addressed:

1. Actually, if you did the research into the history of it, the name of the center has nothing to do with conquest whatsoever. if anything, it's an homage to the Spanish defeat of the Muslims... (Okay; not quite that extreme, but when you look to battles fought over Cordova, it's not the most favorable to the Muslim military strategy...
2. No, you won't be able to see the hole in the ground. It'll be too low and surrounded by other buildings. Also, when and if the Freedom Tower is built, you'll be hard-pressed to pick this center out of the crowd of buildings that happen to be Lower Manhattan.
3. Honestly, I haven't seen anything about the exact date when it'll open; whenever it is, it's likely to be something on the Islamic calendar and not on the Roman one...

9/4/2010 10:16:40 AM

The Watcher

What more do you need, a giant sign saying "FUCK YOU"?

I'd love one right about now, actually.

I've got an analogy for you, let's say some far-right Christian group theoretically blew up some really important muslim place, nuked Mecca or something, and (very uncharacteristically I might add, as in this would never happen)
Tell that to the Muslims at Cordoba.

Christians around the world danced in the streets and fired AK-47s into the air when they heard the news.

Then those Christians would be horrible, horrible people. However, those Christians who didn't take place in the celebration of mass death would get no grief from me.

Then, they came over to the crater, and said that they were going to build a big, multi-million dollar Catholic cathedral...

Depends. Who is "they?" The same terrorists who blew it up in the first place? Why haven't they been brought to justice?

And why do you keep insisting this building is the Muslim equivalent of a church? It's not; it's more like a YMCA than anything.

What if it were different Christians? Or, better yet, an unrelated, multi-ethnic group looking to build relations and redevelop unused real estate? Because that's a lot closer to what's happening here.


To top it all off, they set the grand opening on the anniversary of the the Mecca's destruction, so they'll be singing hymns and ringing the bell all day.

That would be pretty shitty.

What do you think of that? If you find my example horribly insensitive, then why do you defend the Victory Mosque?

Because it bears no Earthly resemblance to what's actually going on in Lower Manhattan.

9/4/2010 10:22:02 AM

Professor M

@ The Watcher --

What if it were different Christians? Or, better yet, an unrelated, multi-ethnic group looking to build relations and redevelop unused real estate? Because that's a lot closer to what's happening here.

Or even better yet, a group that is a frequent target of the same terrorists.

(What, people think al-Qa'ida only attacks the U.S.? Some of their most violent hate is for liberal Muslims, here and around the world.)

9/4/2010 10:27:54 AM

Anon-e-moose

"Even the British can see how much of an insult the Victory Mosque is"

And your presumption that you dare to speak for me, a citizen of Great Britain, is an unimaginable insult. Furthermore...:

If that is how you see all Muslims, then, going by your logic, you and all your right-wing Fundamentalist Christian, Neocon, Teabagger et al ilk, FreedomFox, are exactly like Oklahoma City terrorist Timothy McVeigh.

...or am I presuming too much?! Projecting so much, that you'd make the IMAX format obsolete? Or simply a case of methinks the lady doth protest too much?

9/4/2010 10:29:03 AM



Christians have already blown up Muslim places of worship and Muslim countries and then walked the streets with weapons, patrolling the areas. Thats all happened.

And no, Cordoba is not symbolic of conquest. It is symbolic of tolerance and scientific and religious progress, shortly before the Christians took over and imposed the Inquisition.

9/4/2010 10:30:56 AM

Brendan Rizzo

Except that that's not what's happening. I don't care about the building, but stop bitching.

And Cordoba? As in the Intellectual-Center-of-the-Middle-Ages Cordoba? Why is that so bad?

9/4/2010 10:34:29 AM

John_in_Oz

Let me make sure I've got this straight.
The building says "Fuck you", and therefore you want to ban it.
So you're not just against your constitution's freedom of religion guarantees, but also its freedom of speech promises.

You'll outfox those freedom believers yet!

9/4/2010 10:40:38 AM



Apparently nuking a city with about 1 700 000 people in it that is major a major pilgrimage target for a religion with a billion followers equals flying an aeroplane to a pair of skyscrapers with several thousands people in it with no religious significance.

I'm not saying september 11 attacks was insignificant, but honestly, get some sense of proportion.

9/4/2010 10:59:09 AM

Random Man

"Christians around the world danced in the streets and fired AK-47s into the air when they heard the news."

They would never do that; they would use pistols!

9/4/2010 11:04:03 AM

Amadaun

Okay, if I'm hearing right, the World Trade Center was a holy site of Christianity. The holy site, in fact. Forget the Church of the Nativity and the Vatican.

...the fuck?! It was a pair of giant office buildings! It wasn't even a minor church. It could be considered a minor pillar (way behind all kinds of monuments and historical sites) of the Church of America, which since its destruction has been elevated to incredible heights, but I thought you were a Christian. The America-worshipers haven't formally incorporated as a religion, perhaps because it would be a little hypocritical of them to ask for tax breaks...

Okay, I couldn't say that last part with a straight face. But you do seem to have confused your national and religious identities. Here's a shocker: most Englishmen are Christians.

Cordoba was beautiful, and 800 years of peaceful, syncretic home rule is not an occupation anymore, let alone a conquest. Durrrr.

A lot of the rest of it you fucking made up.

And Islam's history is actually more peaceful than yours, especially concerning relations with its direct predecessors, even if they have had six hundred fewer years to come up with shit to pull.

They have never done anything close to the Inquisitions or the Crusades to you, let alone the Holocaust. Spanish Christians weren't compelled to convert in el-Andalus. (Though if they had been perhaps it would have remained el-Andalus.) Andalusian Muslims were forced to convert to Christianity, in large numbers, after the reconquista, though not in huge ones until the Inquisition. They didn't even wipe out Zoroastrianism in Persia, and it wasn't one of the faiths of the Book, but heathen. Nor did they even take a shot at uprooting Hinduism in India. Quick, what did you do in Europe?

You suck. You fail. You don't get it. They're in a bad place now, and might even continue to be, and religiously have not entirely adapted to the present and its standards, but history vindicates them over you.

9/4/2010 11:08:43 AM

Sisyphus

Who was it who virtually eradicated the Native Americans?

Then forced the survivors to adapt their oppressor's religion?

Then built thousands of monuments and places of worship celebrating their religion?

Oh. Right. The fucking christians.

9/4/2010 11:16:33 AM

werewolf

I thought the Constitution and the Bill of Rights pretty much settled this question.

So what the fuck is all this noise?

9/4/2010 12:30:52 PM

Old Viking

I hear the thing is going to be 90 stories high, and they're going to have 72 virgins as greeters.

9/4/2010 12:48:21 PM

TheJebusFire

Then, they came over to the crater, and said that they were going to build a big, multi-million dollar Catholic cathedral, with huge stained glass windows, a ridiculously tall bell tower, the works, within viewing distance, and close enough that anyone attending the memorial would hear church bells ringing every Sunday.

Dude, what do you think all those Catholic churches in medieval Europe were built for?

9/4/2010 1:06:08 PM

Musicalbookworm

Yeah, destroying other religious sites and people is totally uncharacteristic of Christians.

9/4/2010 1:37:48 PM



Heeey, I'm a Brit, and at most I think its probably a bit ill-considered, I mean they must have anticipated at least some reaction.

But then, I accept that its there to serve a growing Muslim population in New York and that buying real estate there must be a bit like buying the Crown Jewels. Rare and expensive. So, really, any plot that comes onto the market is pretty much going to be seriously considered as a site.

9/4/2010 2:05:09 PM

TGRwulf

*Cordova was taken BACK by the Christians in the 1300's, AND the place is going to be called PARK 51.

*It's FOUR BLOCKS from the proposed WTC memorial. You WON'T even be able to see a corner of ground zero from it, or vice versa.

* So? It's a cultural center. Are you saying that cultural centers can't open on holidays?

HOWEVER, it IS refreshing to see someone who's against the "ground zero mosque" to realize that building an "Victory Cathedral" or whatever would be just as offensive as an ACTUAL "Victory Mosque".

9/4/2010 2:08:13 PM

aaa

I didn't know you considered WTC a holy place. You dollar-worshipers have some weird-ass priorities.

9/4/2010 2:23:47 PM

The Lazy One

I thought Cordova was one of the most progressive cities of the Middle Ages? Like, wasn't there a bunch of medical hospitals and stuff there?

9/4/2010 2:40:07 PM

breakerslion

I've got an analogy for you, let's say some bigoted, uninformed idiot starts spewing lies and distortions in order to build a straw-man Frankenstein out of hate and spittle ...

Oh wait....

9/4/2010 3:00:48 PM

WMDKitty

I've got an analogy for you, let's say some far-right Christian group theoretically blew up some really important muslim place, nuked Mecca or something, and (very uncharacteristically I might add, as in this would never happen) Christians around the world danced in the streets and fired AK-47s into the air when they heard the news. Then, they came over to the crater, and said that they were going to build a big, multi-million dollar Catholic cathedral, with huge stained glass windows, a ridiculously tall bell tower, the works, within viewing distance, and close enough that anyone attending the memorial would hear church bells ringing every Sunday.

Christians have a long and bloody history of just that kind of thing.

All those temples and sacred groves and shrines and just... holy places, TAKEN OVER BY CHRISTIANS.

9/4/2010 4:20:24 PM



@The Lazy One:

Cordoba was one of the greatest cities and Islamic Spain was one of the greatest eras in the history of religion. An incredible amount of knowledge was garnered, people educated, science, religion, music, art and literature written and produced etc etc. This all stopped when the Christians conquered Cordoba during the Reconquista and imposed the Inquisition, after they had massacred Jews throughout Europe and most of the Jews had fled to the Middle East to live with the Muslims. Racists will never know or acknowledge the truth about Cordoba because they are biased. It doesnt matter what the name of the Center is, they will equate it with conquest or victory of some kind. So I say to Imam Rauf: build it and call it the Cordoba Center. Fuck the Islamophobic Nazis!

9/4/2010 4:21:50 PM
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