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how did you get this idea of just and unjust?
The golden rule. Every culture has had some version of it. They didn't need the Bible to tell them.
1/29/2011 8:52:02 AM
Bibles laid open? My atheism is reinforced the more I read the bible.
1/29/2011 8:55:14 AM
What about a middle-aged woman? (Is 40 middle-aged? As women in Sweden live to about 84, I guess 40 is the middle of life.) Do I need to be careful of my readings too? The more I read the Bible, the more skeptic I become, the more atheistic. I don't argue against God, I just see no evidence or reason for any of the gods to be more than inventions by people who wanted answers to unanswerable questions.
In order to live as social animals, we have to treat each other with some degree of respect and decency. That's were we got the idea of just and unjust from. Also, when bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people, then the world is rather unjust. If there was an omnipotent, benevolent being ruling the world, that would not happen.
Thinking of this world as just a test, with only two possible options afterwards, and no appeals available, that seems intolerable to me. Thinking of it as a place to better ourselves, for other people's sake as well as or own, to leave a better world for our children than we got from our parents, that doesn't seem so bad to me.
1/29/2011 9:07:43 AM
this is not in the least fundie. it is more of a philosophical approach to understand the world. it is perfectly normal to think about it.
1/29/2011 9:10:21 AM
A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.
Or vice versa...Then again, there's the question of whether it's baleful for a line to be crooked as a matter of course.
While the cosmos has a nasty harshness tendency, though, we DO notice occasional irruptions of niceness. Therefore, we throw everything we've got at transmuting the cosmos so the irruptions become the norm. It's not that we're comparing one universe with another, but rather comparing moments within a single universe with each other, and looking for a way to make the better moments more and more frequent.
1/29/2011 9:28:55 AM
Are you seriously saying that the description of God in the bible is a the standard for fairness and justice?
Words fail me!
1/29/2011 9:38:17 AM
Holy shit. Does this win the 'Most Pretentious Fundie of the Year" award?
1/29/2011 9:53:22 AM
Ah yes, because The Bible is the dictionary definition of a straight line, it never changes, which is how we can tell good from bad; morality remains the same throughout the Bible.
Which is why Jesus would have been fine with massacring other tribes for worshipping the wrong god, sacrificing animals to cure leprosy, destroying whole cities for being disagreeable, beating slaves, raping virgin women
So, either God is the mirror we must use to tell bad from good and all of the above are just fine.
Or, these things are no longer fine and God has changed its tune about morality - making it not absolute
1/29/2011 10:11:17 AM
You think that your statement makes sense but it doesn't. Sorry.
1/29/2011 11:29:41 AM
Oy vey! There's thick. Then there's this guy.
1/29/2011 11:39:39 AM
"A littlle advice to young Atheists… A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading."
Oh, I completely agree. The more he/she reads, the less possible chance that they can be in the thrall of those who promote the illogical bullshit that is fundie religion. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing indeed.
"There are traps everywhere."
Forewarned is forearmed, as I always say:
Like I say - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing (in this case, to the subhuman t/a/rds on 4chan. If someone knows in advance, then it's impossible
to be 'trapped').
"God is, in a way, very unscrupulous."
Why, thank you for admitting that the 'God' you worship is an evil, capricious, inferior subhuman that has no
right to be believed, never mind worshipped, in the first place. Honesty. So refreshing in a fundie.
"You may argue against God"
Want to try me? Just make your 'God' appear to me. Two Words: Babel Fish.
"but answer me this: if the universe seems so cruel and unjust, how did you get this idea of just and unjust?"
Easy. He/she (as I did in my youth) reads the bible. Old and
New Testaments. Cover to cover:
'Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for Atheism ever conceived'
To reiterate: A little knowledge can be a dangerous
thing indeed. Next question.
"If you think of this world as a place intended simply for our happiness, and intellectual freedom you find it quite intolerable: think of it as a place of training and correction and it’s not so bad"
PROTIP: The TV series "Lost" is not
1/29/2011 11:49:49 AM
Reading the bible is waht opens the eyes and minds of most atheists and agnostics.
1/29/2011 12:11:54 PM
Let's not fight for justice now, let's just wait for justice after we die. Yeah, that's pretty much why I turned against religion.
1/29/2011 12:28:56 PM
You're right, it is risky out there. With so many Bibles lying around and so many fundies babbling in public, there's no telling when an atheist will have to burst out laughing.
1/29/2011 12:37:05 PM
Isn't a prison what you call a correctional place?
1/29/2011 12:49:28 PM
I did Physics at Cambridge and manage to remain a Catholic, although sometimes I'm not sure how.
But I never read the bible and thought "No, this shows that the Maxwell equations are wrong".
1/29/2011 1:24:36 PM
There are so many Unfortunate Implications in this paragraph that I cannot count them all. I know that a famous atheist, Isaac Asimov, said something to the effect of, "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived," or something along those lines, so the first argument is invalid. As for the second argument, it could just as well be turned on the original poster. If the universe is cruel and unjust (by which, it should be pointed out, does not mean that mercy and justice are impossible, just that the universe will neither help nor hinder them by its mere existence) then how did the fundie derive his ideas of justice and injustice? Assuming that the Bible is wrong, then humans wrote it, meaning that he got his views of justice from other humans. Thus, atheists do the same; they just admit it. As for his last statement, why do I get the distinct implication from it that belief in God or religion causes a person to suddenly not care about all the injustices in the world, instead of trying to go out and fix them? After all, the depressing poverty and oppression in the Third World (and elsewhere, just not to the same extent) truly is intolerable. I cannot imagine any circumstances in which it should be tolerated. Of course, the fundie probably meant to imply that atheism is inherently nihilistic, but since that is incorrect I assumed otherwise.
1/29/2011 1:24:43 PM
> Bibles laid open, millions of surprises, fine nets and stratagems.
It's still not exactly the most riveting and best-written book in the world. If that is your idea of a "clever plan", then so is the tax agency. ("Law books laid open, millions of forms (in triplicate), fine legislations and trained clerks." Thinking of the sheer mass and brilliance of the tax law makes you just jump in and make sure your numbers add up, doesn't it? ...though so.)
> God is, in a way, very unscrupulous.
I gave you a chance to prove the omnibenevolence and omnipotence of your god. Now you say he uses deceit! Why worship a god that claims to be omnipotent but needs human effort to lure people to his faith?
> if the universe seems so cruel and unjust, how did you get this idea of just and unjust?
How did we get it? Who cares. What's more important is how do we use this thing, don't you think?
Gee, so we got us some moral axioms. Thanks, I guess. Can we get to dealing with actual problems now? ...Can you please explain what possible use is there in creator-worship?
1/29/2011 1:25:49 PM
I read about the afterlife
I got the idea of just and unjust from my genetic code. It makes good evolutionary sense to be kind to others -- otherwise your species will die out.
1/29/2011 1:30:16 PM
This attempt at "sophisticated" apologetics is rather embarrassing. Saying that the universe is cruel and unjust implies that it somehow has intent, which is silly, but not as silly as thinking that reading the bible can turn an atheist into a believer.
Back to school with you, Mr/Ms Leave A Mark.
1/29/2011 1:31:58 PM
Mark, you do realize many atheists are atheists because they did read the bible, right?
1/29/2011 1:32:38 PM
Which is why Jesus would have been fine with... beating slaves...
Jesus was fine with slavery, he never once condemns it and in Luke 7:2 tacitly approves of it.
Paul (and most modern Christians would be more accurately caled 'Paulians') was an enormous fan of it.
Col 3:22 Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, work heartily...
1/29/2011 1:40:12 PM
If I ever get stuck in one of those Bible traps, I will simply gnaw off a leg and escape.
1/29/2011 1:45:18 PM
Uhhh... what's he on about?
Better yet, what's he ON?
1/29/2011 2:08:01 PM
I'd like to know where you live where open bibles are littered all over the place.
1/29/2011 2:15:21 PM
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