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Quote# 79447

On Tuesday, I posted a column on the settlement of America by Europeans. The column generated so much intense, vitriolic and profane reaction that it threatened to take on a life of its own, and serve as a distraction to the fundamental mission of AFA, even though when I blog I am speaking only for myself and not for the organization. So we took it down.

But the issue I addressed in the column is an important one, and at some point, a rational discussion and debate about it must be held.

The template that the left has generated is that the displacement of indigenous tribes by European colonists and settlers was irredeemably evil. All the land which now comprises the United States was stolen from its rightful owners. Our very presence on this soil is a guilty, tainted presence.

So the question is whether that template is right, or whether the displacement of indigenous nations was consistent with the laws of nature, nature’s God, and the law of nations and history.

A lot is at stake here. If Americans believe that the entire history of our nation rests on a horribly evil foundation, then there is nothing to be proud of in American history, and our president is correct to identify America as the source of all evil in the world and to make a career out of apologizing for her very existence.

If, however, there is a moral and ethical basis for our displacement of native American tribes, and if our westward expansion and settlement are in fact consistent with the laws of nature, nature’s God, and the law of nations, then Americans have much to be proud of.

Bryan Fischer, Rightly Concerned 68 Comments [2/14/2011 5:56:04 AM]
Fundie Index: 75
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Grimsoncrow

A.Hitler would absolutely agree with you.

2/14/2011 6:02:59 AM

nutbunny

Laws of Nature my arse!
You just cannot bring yourself to say sorry.
Of course you wouldn't ever consider that since you seem to be advocating some sort of social darwinism

2/14/2011 6:04:05 AM

MarylandBear

Here, have a shovel. It will make it easier to make the hole you're in now deeper.

2/14/2011 6:16:10 AM

aaa

Bryan, do you have a Stormfront account?

2/14/2011 6:17:33 AM

Goosey

Way to throw up a false dilemma to smokescreen your racism apologetics. You sick fuck.

2/14/2011 6:19:18 AM

Doctor Whom

The last paragraph is truly facepalm-worthy: "So this is a conversation that needs to take place. But based on the reaction to my column of Tuesday, America is not mature enough right now for that robust dialogue to occur. Until it is..."

2/14/2011 6:23:59 AM

jsonitsac

President Obama has never identified "America as the source of all evil in the world." If he did, why would he have more drone strikes in Afghanistan than Bush?

In fact, the only foreign policy apology that I can think of him making was the whole El Salvadorian syphilis thing, which happened in the 1940s and it was patently obvious that required an apology.

You folks on the right made that up because he wants to make a few changes to US Foreign policy.

2/14/2011 6:28:47 AM

Brain_In_A_Jar

A lot is at stake here. If Americans believe that the entire history of our nation rests on a horribly evil foundation, then there is nothing to be proud of in American history, and our president is correct to identify America as the source of all evil in the world and to make a career out of apologizing for her very existence.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people can be so fucking stupid as to fail, or refuse, to grasp the idea that a thing can sometimes be bad, sometimes be good, and even sometimes be both. Newsflash, fundies: shit is complicated! You can't just have a single goddamn checkbox for an entire civilisation that says "good/bad!"

2/14/2011 6:32:38 AM

Mister Spak

"a rational discussion and debate about it must be held."

Which leaves you out of the picture.

2/14/2011 6:43:27 AM

Doubting Thomas

I don't believe that America is the source of all evil in the world, but we shouldn't be proud of what we did to the native Americans who were already here. I mean, wiping them out with smallpox-infected blankets was not a nice thing to do.

2/14/2011 7:02:17 AM



Grey. It happens when black and white mix. It suggests overlap and nuances that exist between polar opposite positions. You should spend some time pondering on the shades of grey Bryan, they are kind of important.

2/14/2011 7:04:12 AM

Higgs Boson

Man, are Venn diagrams blasphemous in fundamentalist Christianity or something?

Is it too much to understand that a single entity may have, and have had, numerous different characteristics, some of which are at odds with one another?

2/14/2011 7:25:32 AM

John_in_Oz

It's easy to check whether you've acted in an evil fashion. Ask if you think it's moral and desirable to have that done to you.

2/14/2011 7:41:27 AM

dionysus

If Americans believe that the entire history of our nation rests on a horribly evil foundation, then there is nothing to be proud of in American history, and our president is correct to identify America as the source of all evil in the world and to make a career out of apologizing for her very existence.

If, however, there is a moral and ethical basis for our displacement of native American tribes, and if our westward expansion and settlement are in fact consistent with the laws of nature, nature’s God, and the law of nations, then Americans have much to be proud of.


Aside from being a false dichotomy, this seems like an argument from emotion rather than a rational assessment. How the fuck can you demand a rational discussion and debate when you're appealing to emotion? You've basically just admitted that you care more about something making you feel better about yourself than it being true.

2/14/2011 8:03:13 AM

GodotIsWaiting4U

Yes and no. They didn't exactly think of themselves as owners; more like tenants.

Oh lawd is dat sum manifest destiny?

2/14/2011 8:06:06 AM

Papabear

Has Bryan actually been elected Stupidest A**hole on the Planet or is he just a volunteer.

2/14/2011 8:21:24 AM

Anon-e-moose

"On Tuesday, I posted a column on the settlement of America by Europeans" tl;dr...

One Word: Lebensraum.

@MarylandBear

"Here, have a shovel. It will make it easier to make the hole you're in now deeper."

Even the drill on Nero's ship Narada in the recent JJ Abrams "Star Trek" film, couldn't make a hole deeper than the one Bryan's dug for himself here.

2/14/2011 8:47:33 AM

Table Rock

So my choices are:

1. America sucks.
2. America is awesome.

And the only thing I need for #2 is to find a bullshit reason for why we treated the native Americans like crap.

Gee, I wonder which they will go for.

2/14/2011 9:01:42 AM

StoneSpiral

As a Native American, I can say, you're an asshole Mr. Fischer. What happened to my ancestors and the ancestors of many modern Americans was a despicable horror that we should not shy away from nor should we accept as part of any inevitable law, natural or divine.

We should instead learn from the mistakes of our fore bearers and do our best not to repeat them. This means no longer treating other civilizations and cultures like crap.

I am a member of the Choctaw Nation and an American Citizen. I am proud of both for persevering through the worst and giving me the chance to know better than they did. I learned.

You, however, sound like a man who's planning to follow their example to the letter.

2/14/2011 9:33:35 AM

TGRwulf

"If, however, there is a moral and ethical basis for our displacement of native American tribes, and if our westward expansion and settlement are in fact consistent with the laws of nature, nature’s God, and the law of nations, then Americans have much to be proud of."

GDIAF. NOW.

2/14/2011 9:50:30 AM

John

It's funny how God always seems to agree with what people themselves want to do, and people seem to have an infinite capacity for convincing themselves after the fact that the things they did for their own selfish benefit were exactly what God "wanted" them to do.

2/14/2011 9:56:03 AM

David B.

Tell me, do you think the same also applies to Mexicans' northward expansion?

2/14/2011 10:29:11 AM

Kamism

Only humans do genocide, so law of nature it is not.

2/14/2011 11:07:42 AM

Vince

a.k.a. You don't want the truth because it's inconvenient, so your going to make up your own.

Again.

2/14/2011 11:20:45 AM

SleepNeed

Once again Fischer you are wrong.

I don't believe America is evil, but our treatment of the Native Americans is nothing to be proud of. Giving smallpox laced blankets, breaking nearly (if not every) treaty we had with them, then the forced relocation that is now known as The Trail of Tears and much more.

We have to understand history, and part of that is admitting that we made mistakes. I hate to invoke a Godwin, but even Germany admits that they made a mistake with Hitler and they acknowledge that they committed the Holocaust. Many states wouldn't do such a thing, try getting Turkey to admit to the Armenian Genocide. If we acknowledge that in the past our country did the same, we can grow from it.

Also Mr. Obama never referred to America as the source of all evil, the right just made it up.

2/14/2011 11:21:36 AM
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