Orthodox Jews who become atheists seem to follow a fairly consistent pattern:
- Trauma. They experience some very painful incident or incidents. This means that in this person’s perception, the event was traumatic. Some people are much more sensitive than others are to the same experience.
- Medication. They use sex to console themselves and to distract themselves from their pain. This may be anything from flirting to masturbation to actual intercourse. Pornography is usually important; for girls, this means romance novels.
- Rationalization. In order not to feel guilty about their sexual misconduct, they deny the validity of the Torah and/or the existence of God.
This clarifies why explaining proofs of Torah to an ex-Orthodox atheist is never effective. He may claim that he is convinced of atheism because of philosophical reasons; however this is never the case. He needs the atheistic philosophy merely to remove the guilt which he would otherwise have to face.
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Yeah, I somehow doubt that "medication" and "rationalization" are that common. Ever thought that the fact that innocuous things like masturbation and consensual sex being antithetical to your religion is what makes it look ridiculous from an intellectual point of view, and not just from the point of view of someone who feels guilty for running afoul of such arbitrary standards? No, probably not. Because just like Christians fundies, you need to believe that your religion has such a wonderful moral code, that atheists are immoral, and do not believe in your religion because they want to remain so. All three of which are false, mostly due to the fact that Judaism/Christianity/Islam have ridiculously poor moral standards. It is overly strict in restricting things that people should't really care about, and it is absurdly lacking in restricting things that decent modern people would find atrocious.
I'm not an ex-Jew and I wasn't that orthodox before I became an atheist, but nothing whatsoever on that list fits with my "pattern".
It took me years and years to realize I am an atheist, no trauma there.
I use sex for pleasure and relaxation. Most people flirt, masturbate and have intercourse.
Hey! Girls use pornography too, ya know. We are not delicate flowers who faint at the sight of an erect penis.
To me it seems the orthodox people are the ones dealing with guilt. We atheist merely live and let live, and treat others as we want to be treated. Where's the reason for guilt in that?
The fail is strong with this one, but let's just focus on pornography=romance novels. WTF?
And aren't bacon sandwiches the leading cause of leaving Orthodox Judaism?
Okay. I concede that I left conservative Judaism and not orthodox, but my pattern was: think about what I'd been taught, then apply logic and common sense to other teachings, leaving the religion, then realizing all the other ones were just as bad, if not worse.
Am I getting this right?
We have a Jew.
This Jew, for any arbitrary reason, becomes an atheist.
1. For some reason, s/he receives a trauma.
2. S/he uses sex to treat the emotional wounds.
3. Our Jew feels guilty because the text that s/he does no longer believe in says sex is evil.
And, to protect him/herself from the guilt caused by the text s/he does not believe in already, s/he chooses to become an atheist so as to not believe in the text s/he already doesn't believe in?
Atheism -------> Trauma
· --------------------··>, |
^ ,· ------------------· v |
| '· <------------------ ·' v
Rationalization <---Medication
I think my brain just broke...
How an hardcore religious person becomes an atheist.
Go to college.
Get interested in some religious studies classes.
Realize that other religions are no different from yours.
Realize that all religions are bullshit.
Call yourself "agnostic" because you still fear social implications of being an atheist.
Become an atheist when you get over the social fears.
And you know what? Orthodox religious people understand this, that's why they're so against higher education that isn't some kind of religiously based diploma mill.
Trauma ... sex
So, you mean they're just like everybody else? Even like Jews who stay Jews?
they deny the validity of the Torah and/or the existence of God.
Wait, back up.
Isn't that the whole point of being an atheist?
Come on, what atheist would confirm the validity of the Torah and/or the existence of God?
Let us all open our dictionaries to "A".
I have actually heard this one myself. Somebody trying to feed me the Bible although she knew I didn't believe in God. Her reasoning: "even if you don't believe in God, the Bible is still the Bible, I mean, it's the BIBLE!"
Simple minds have simple thoughts.
Pule Thamex
Calling all Orthodox Jews! Calling all Orthodox Jews! Get on board the 24/7 sex special by becoming an atheist today!. Be welcomed into the clan by dizzy bints reading romance novels, and claim your free gift, (in a plain, brown wrapper, of course) of a special selection from the top shelf.
Become an atheist and see the apoplectic drivel of a demented Jacob Stein. Enjoy the increasing bluster of a delusional clod, the ever more ludicrous lying and the noxious prating. Imagine the churning bile of a thwarted authoritarian knobhead, ready to explode in a vitriolic bombastic bomb-burst. Get rid of all your guilt by becoming an atheist. Find out how strangely exhilarating it is to forever throw off the shackles of religious restraint and to, at last, be your own man. Or woman.
Ah, the old "Atheism is just a way to not feel guilty about doing anything" canard. The one that falls apart because atheists and agnostics, though they do not derive their morality from religious sources, still have moral standards and scruples.
"Hollywood Atheist", anyone?
Can't say I really like TVTropes all that much anymore (it seems to be turning into the same kind of editing bureaucracy as Wikipedia lately), but if there's any entry they have that's dead on the money, it's that one.
So, in summary, you are saying that they, (a) got burned, (b) got better, and (c) got wise, and that is why your "proofs" of the Torah don't work on them.
Yup, I'd have to agree, that's most likely true.
Let me satirize me reading the bible:
"What the...?"
"He did WHAT?"
"HOW is that even possible!"
"YEAH, RIGHT!"
"Sure, everyday, not unrealistic at all!"
"Hmm...hmmm... I just saw a friend do that yesterday!"
"Really? REALLY? REALLY?"
"Did he HAVE TO kill EVERYONE?"
"EVEN THE CHILDREN?"
"WHAT?"
"WHAT?"
"WHY?"
"This book is stupid, I'm going to go play video games, they make more sense!"
Really, I'm atheist BECAUSE I was exposed to religion. Anyone with adequate critical thinking skill will probably do the same, because if you analyze it correctly, you'll realize that religion actually doesn't have any practical applications to reality. People eat pork all the time and nothing happens to them. Almost as if... as if... *gasp* religion wasn't true! Oh WOW!
Bullshit.
Especially for American born Jews.
They left the middle east for a better life and they found it, in Europe and the Americas.
There's more famous Atheists from Jewish upbringing in those places then there ever were in history. It's moderate or traditional Judeism that predominates in the western world. It's a recognition of a historical past expressed mostly in parables.
Seen a stoning in New York or Hollywood lately?
It sticks out a mile that you're a converted man from Lutheranism because, otherwise, you'd see that Orthodox Judaism IS OBSESSED with sex. Inside, outside or in the middle of marriage. If a person decides to become atheist, sex is not the issue, believe me.
@ Gay Deist:
I can't really respond for Osiris, but I think I know where he's coming from. I don't think that all agnostics are atheists, or that all agnostics will eventually become atheists. But as an atheist, there have been times when I've called myself an agnostic because I was afraid I'd be ostracized if I said I was an atheist. So . . .yeah . . . this definitely isn't true of everyone that calls themselves an agnostic, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of atheists went through a stage where they called themselves agnostics simply because they were afraid to refer to themselves as atheists.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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