Ellis Washington #fundie

Ellis Washington #fundie wnd.com

The world stands at the brink – the Progressive/Muslim Axis vs. Natural Law/Christianity. Indeed, developments in Egypt, Tunisia and Jordan may indeed be that fateful domino that causes civilizations to collide into global catastrophe. Muslims want to invite apocalypse to set the stage for the so-called Twelfth Imam. Since the 1880s, progressives have provoked societal chaos through a litany of diabolical ideas and welfare policies designed to plunge America and the West into utopian socialism as a pretext to destroy Christianity, Natural Law and the Constitution while forcing society into a globalist Marxist state.

Heads the Progressive-Muslim Axis wins – tails Western civilization, Christianity and Israel lose.

87 comments

old comment by Mister Spak

The world stands at the brink the Conservative/Muslim Axis vs. Natural Law/rationality. Indeed, developments in the American Republic party may indeed be that fateful domino that causes civilizations to collide into global catastrophe. Christians want to invite apocalypse to set the stage for the so-called Rapture. Since the 1880s, Christianists have provoked societal chaos through a litany of diabolical ideas and predatory capitalist policies designed to plunge America and the West into utopian free market worship as a pretext to destroy Rationality, Natural Law and the Constitution while forcing society into a globalist Robber Baron state.

Heads the Christian-Muslim-Hasidic Axis wins tails Western civilization, rationality lose.

Fixed.

old comment by dionysus

Progressive/Muslim Axis

While there are certainly progressive Muslims, the ones you're talking about (the ones that want to invite the apocalypse) are not progressive. In fact, they have much more in common with ultra-conservatives like those here in the US. They too can't wait for the end of the world, hate gays, hate women, hate non-believers, and want to force everyone to believe what they believe.

Since the 1880s, progressives have provoked societal chaos through a litany of diabolical ideas and welfare policies designed to plunge America and the West into utopian socialism

So in other words progressivism is a good thing. Because the word utopia mean an ideal society. While I believe that nobody can create a utopia, that IS what you said.

as a pretext to destroy Christianity, Natural Law and the Constitution

1) Most progressives are Christian.
2) You can't destroy a natural law. It's not like the law of gravity written on a piece of paper and burning that piece of paper deactivates gravity.
3) Why would progressives destroy the Constitution? Its protections are what has led to increased human rights, a PROGRESSIVE issue. It's what keeps your ilk from oppressing everyone else.

Heads the Progressive-Muslim Axis wins tails Western civilization, Christianity and Israel lose.

Okay, if it's really that hopeless that you lose no matter what then just go away and let everyone else try to live in peace.

old comment by Raised by Horses

@1334083

Only if you cherry-pick your holy texts.

Verse 2:221 of the Koran proscribes intermarriage. Verse 3:118 claims that one must not befriend non-Muslims and that they cannot be trusted. Verse 4:74 claims that Allah will reward those who fight in religious wars. 4:89 claims that one should kill non-believers wherever one meets them. Other verses make charming claims including the ones that "menstruation is a filthy disease" (2:222) and that men "are entitled by Allah to reign over women and should beat them into submission if they disobey" (4:34). Oh, and it also lays claim that the Earth "is fixed and does not move".

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Sound progressive to you?

Oh, and in case you'd like to make any claims of Christianity being more progressive than Islam, don't bother. Have a read through the Epistles sometime. If anything, Western / historically Christian societies are moral and progressive despite religion, not because of it, largely because Enlightenment values and moral progress have tempered it over the years.

old comment by Godbuster

Socialism is good. If socialism is good and it destroys Christianity, wouldn't it follow that Christianity is bad, otherwise it would totally go hand in hand with socialism, which, believe it or not, it totally does. Stupidly a lot of American Christian despise and don't even really understand socialism, so I'm going to have to say, that you're just slowing down progress for all of us. All of you religious people are. Isn't it about time to join us in the 21st century? Where we don't need sky ghosts to guide us, because they never fucking answer any fucking way and no one seems to notice that ever so small but ever so important fucking fact.

old comment by Brendan Rizzo

@ Raised by Horses:

No one is denying that the Koran promotes some horrible things. No one is denying that the Bible also promotes most of those same horrible things. And no one is denying that the two of them are equally horrific in their promotion of those horrible things. That's why fundies are so abominable, after all. However, even though the Bible praises countless atrocities and those who commit them, there are progressive Christians regardless of this. You can claim that they aren't true Christians, but they certainly seem to be living like Jesus. Since the Bible and Koran are pretty much moral equivalents of each other, there is no reason why there cannot be Muslims who also disregard the parts of their holy book that they find distasteful, and become progressive Muslims. In fact, I think quite a few of those exist in America and other countries which allow freedom of religion.

To reiterate, no one is saying that Christianity is morally superior to Islam; however, it is quite unfair to Muslims to imply that all of them are fundamentalists when no religion is made up entirely of fundamentalist fanatics. And I say this as someone who is not, has never been, and never will be a Muslim.

old comment by Raised by Horses

@Brendan Rizzo

Yes, I realize that not every Muslim is a foaming-at-the-mouth Jihad-o-holic. I'm not in the habit of painting people with a broad brush like that. What I'm saying is that people, whether they profess faith or not, are usually good, moral and rational despite said faith, and not because of it. And the quality of being progressive is very much antithetical to virtually any religion. (Mind you, if all those who professed to be Muslims or Christians or whatever actually took their holy books 100% seriously, including those lovely passages about killing all non-believers, infidels and outsiders, we'd have a very different society on our hands).

If you actually tried to live your life according to every rule and tenet set down in the Bible or the Koran, including making attempts to reconcile their numerous contradictions with known facts about the real world, and even with their own contents, the sheer cognitive dissonance would cause your head to spin until it fell off. Hence, believers pick and choose the bits they like and ignore the ones they don't. It's pretty hard to claim that anyone is or isn't a "True Christian" or a "True Muslim", when there isn't even a proper definition of what either of those things are.

Cheers, mate.

old comment by John

The world stands at the brink the Progressive~~/Muslim~~ Axis vs. ~~Natural Law/~~ lunatic-fringe fundamentalist Christianity. Indeed, developments in ~~Egypt, Tunisia and Jordan~~ Texas may indeed be that fateful domino that causes civilizations to collide into global catastrophe. ~~Muslims~~ Lunatic-fringe fundamentalist Christians want to invite apocalypse to set the stage for the so-called ~~Twelfth Imam~~ "Rapture". Since the 188030s, ~~progressives~~ lunatic-fringe fundamentalist Christians have provoked societal chaos through a litany of diabolical ideas and welfare policies designed to plunge America and the West into ~~utopian socialism~~ fundamentalist Protestant theocracy as a pretext to destroy mainstream moderate Christianity, Natural Law and the Constitution while forcing society into a ~~globalist Marxist~~ lunatic-fringe fundamentalist Christian state.

Same shit, different fantasy.

old comment by

@ Raised by Horses

"the quality of being progressive is very much antithetical to virtually any religion" - as a progressive Christian I'd dispute this. All mainstream faiths have their conservative and progressive wings; certain Christian groups (Unitarians and Quakers being the obvious example) are progressive by definition. I suppose your "virtually" gives you some wiggle room, but it's still a generalisation too sweeping for me. Same goes for your "people, whether they profess faith or not, are usually good, moral and rational despite said faith, and not because of it." It's too sloppy a statement to be worth much. But I agree with your implication that what matters are the values we live by rather than the beliefs, religious, political, whatever, that we profess to hold. On many causes believers and non-believers can join forces, and often do.

What interests me about the idea of progressive Moslems is whether they can be so without performing such mental gymnastics that one wonders about their integrity. For example I know a Moslem psychologist whose training in Western medicine leads him to dismiss jinns as a diagnosis when dealing with mental distress; but as a man of faith he can't deny their existence, and I've been fascinated to watch him try to keep his two world views in balance.

Liberal Christians working in mental health (as I do) don't have the same problem: they know that Biblical material about demons needs to be demythologised, seen as metaphor at best, dismissed as primitive at worst. We don't even have to pay lip service to the idea of an infallible Bible because we don't believe that unhistorical doctrine in the first place. A Moslem, as I understand it, MUST accept the absolute authority of the Koran and for an educated Westerner that's a problem.

old comment by Mister Spak

@#1334560:

" I know a Moslem psychologist whose training in Western medicine leads him to dismiss jinns as a diagnosis when dealing with mental distress; but as a man of faith he can't deny their existence, and I've been fascinated to watch him try to keep his two world views in balance. "

Google "right wing authoritarian followers" and see what is said about compartmentalised thinking.

Christian fundies have a horrible problem with it, in the logical sense. In the psycological sense they are completely unaware of the problem, which is a characteristic of American fundies.

I used to work with a creationist who was also a degreed engineer. It was so much fun to make his engineering brain collide with his fundie creationist brain. Eventually he just refused to talk to me.

old comment by Raised by Horses

@1334560

NT, Romans 12:19-20
"Never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the Wrath of God. For it is written, 'Vengeance is mine. I will repay,' says the Lord. Rather, if your enemies are hungry, feed them. If they are thirsty, give them something to drink, for by doing this you will be heaping burning coals on their heads."

NT, Timothy 6:1, Ephesians 6:5
"All those who are under the yoke of slavery must have utmost regard for their master. Obey your earthly masters with respect, fear, and sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."

OT, Samuel 3:12, 13, 14
"In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end. For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not. And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever."

NT, Timothy 2:11-12
"A woman should learn in silence and full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must keep silent."

NT, Thessalonians 2:14-15
"The Jews killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets. They are displeasing to God and hostile to all men."

OT, Leviticus 20:13
"If a man has sex with a man in same way as with a woman, they have committed an abomination. They are certainly to be put to death. Their blood is on their own heads."

OT, Deuteronomy 22:20
"...if the accusation is true and no evidence of the woman's virginity is shown, the woman must be taken to the door of her fathers house and stoned to death by the men of the town."

OT, Deuteronomy 23:1
"A man whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis has been cut off must not be admitted to the congregation of Yahweh."

old comment by Raised by Horses

(cont'd)

OT, Exodus 20:12, 21:15,17..
"Honour your father and your mother. Anyone who strikes father or mother will be put to death. Anyone who curses father or mother will be put to death."

OT, Exodus 21:20-21
"If someone beats his slave and the slave dies at his hands he shall certainly be avenged. But should the slave survive for one day or two he will pay no penalty because the slave is his owner's property."

OT, Deuteronomy 13:6-8,9,10
"If your brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife tries to secretly entice you, telling you to go and worship other gods, gods of people living near you, or far from you, or anywhere on earth, do not listen to him. You must kill them. Show them no pity. And your hand must strike the first blow. Then the hands of all the people. You shall stone them to death."

NT, Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:49
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace but a sword. I have come to bring fire to the earth. And how I wish it were burning already!"

Progressive, indeed!

Tell me, do you still keep to these laws and edicts, or has Christianity, in your estimation, "progressed" beyond them? What need, then, of Christianity and its tenets as laid down by its holy texts in the lives of "progressive Christians"?

old comment by Raised by Horses

(cont'd again)

Yes, there are good parts, too, in the Bible, but they are greatly outnumbered by ones espousing cruelty and injustice. And were we to allow that those passages are somehow even or possibly greater in value... well, these texts leave us no method by which to make such discernments. It should be obvious to anyone that a work which espouses cruelty and kindness in equal measure ultimately gives weight to neither, and thus cannot be taken seriously as a moral guide in any way. Indeed, having read through parts of the Bible again recently, I am struck by the sheer moral poverty of these ancient texts.

These are not passages that are "subject to interpretation" or "moving in mysterious ways" (and please don't start trotting out any nonsense about how it's all "metaphorical" or, heaven forbid, "God is Love"), they are concrete decrees, to be upheld by all true believers on pain of death (and eternal torment).

Really, as a "progressive Christian", you should have another look through your "good" book and evaluate it for yourself. I suspect that as someone who desires moral and social progress, as you claim, you may find it wanting.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
-Steven Weinberg

old comment by Raised by Horses

@1334832

"This is a classic False Dilemma fallacy. You attempt to state 'All Christians must think alike and if they don't then they're acting against their religion" is only your opinion, which is no more valid than anyone else's.' So all you have proven, is that the only way you can justify yourself is by assigning the other side beliefs for them."

I see your accusation of creating a False Dilemma, and I raise you a Red Herring. First of all, I never said anything of the sort. You are putting words into my mouth. My earlier comment about Muslims applies equally to Christians. What I did say is that the Bible sets down certain laws and proscriptions which must be followed if one wishes to end up in Heaven instead of Hell. These are the Christian sacred texts, with no authority above them. What you have said, and essentially confirmed, is that you don't take your holy texts entirely seriously. And that's the whole point. How exactly do you arbitrate? By what criterion do you decide which parts to accept and which parts to ignore, if not your own sense of morality? And if you can dismiss parts of it because they are not to your own liking, what reason is there to take any of it seriously?

"So "Raised by Horses" you think you're god or something?"

Don't throw out childish questions to which we both already know the answer. It's disingenuous, and it serves only to derail any real debate. We'll chalk it up to a petulant tantrum resulting from losing a debate point and move on, shall we?

Just so there's no ambiguity here, I am not trying to browbeat you, or saying that you're not a good or moral person or anything like that. What I am saying is that I think you need to examine your own notions of morality as it relates to your religion more critically. And I welcome debate about the matter, but only if it is intellectually honest debate, free from distractions and misdirection.

old comment by Anon-e-moose

"Heads the Progressive-Muslim Axis wins tails Western civilization, Christianity and Israel lose."

Sounds like the pitch, nay, the tagline, for a fundie version of "Alien vs. Predator":

Islamists vs. Theocratic Christian Dominionists: whoever wins, we all lose.

...fortunately for Western Civilisation, Europe is very secular. PROTIP: there are more Muslim citizens/immigrants in the US than in most of the EU put together. Do you have Sharia law in your country, Ellis? If your answer is the only one possible, you've just destroyed your own argument. So we over here aren't as right-wingnut fundie nutty buggers as you lot are 'over the pond'; you lot aren't allowed to 'persecute' others not exactly like you. Your power - certainly political - is n the wane, if not dying altogether.

Deal with it.

old comment by Often Partisan

You do realise that Marx was critical of "Utopian Socialism" (ie that of the likes of Proudhon, Saint-Simon etc) as "building a little Icaria" and ignoring the concept of the progress of history which would lead to communism. He dismissed them because they were considered to be idealist rather than focussing upon the actual material relations; many of them scorned industrialism whereas Marx praised it (as well as condemned it) for allowing for progress despite the barbarity caused by it. Marx considered such schemes of the utopian socialists to be building castles in the air.

Oh wait of course you don't realise that because you're a fundie who knows jack shit about Marxism.

(Marx was against utopia to allow for its realisation to quote Adorno)

Ellis Washington #fundie wnd.com

87 comments

Confused?