It is perhaps useful to think about heaven and hell in terms of utility rather than fairness. If God has a purpose for man beyond the grave and is distinguishing between those He finds useful for that purpose and those He does not, and if man has been created with an immortal soul, then obviously something must be done with those immortal souls who have been determined to be of no use to Him. This logic answers Rob Bell's simplistic concerns regarding the fate of Gandhi and anyone else deemed "good" by humanity; their perceived goodness during their time on Earth is totally irrelevant with regard to their eternal utility in the eyes of God. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp, as even the best Mixed Martial Arts fighter in the world is not considered to be of any value whatsoever to the United States Marine Corps.
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Well, if it is not about fairness, I hope you aren’t one of those folks goin’ on about how God is totally just and fair, then.
And, out of curiosity, what is it that makes the world’s best mixed martial artist so ill-suited for the US Marine Corps.? (Assuming the martial artist in question is AmericanI really don’t know.)
Why does God create billions of individuals for which he has no use? Particularly since, being God, he would have known they were of no use to him before he created them?
Perhaps it's not souls but minds God needs? Then the purpose of religion would be to weed out the weak-minds (who get put in a playpen with something shiny for all eternity), while those mentally agile enough to not take their world-view from the mangled translations of 2000-4000 year old fables are entrusted with the real work.
Makes as much sense as your idea.
What about the best fighter in Aikido or Shotokan Karate or Wing Chun or any of the other martial arts? Would they be of value to the USMC?
This god of yours seems to be such an insane prick that, if he were a real person, he'd be in a mental institution.
However, the many many "ifs" in your little hypothesis aside, what is this "use" that your dear granny of a god has created all these souls for?
Because in my view, a Ghandi is worth about a million christian fundies in terms of suffering alleviated, general good to humanity, and spreading the "law" of Jesus. (The whole of The Law is to "love one another as I have loved you". Remember that part, fundies?)
So now what? Is Ghandi in hell? Or not? Is your god a nasty peacock who is all pride and vanity, or is he genuinely interested in the well-being of his "creation"?
{sigh} He probably thinks good and evil ought not apply to God, either, only holiness and unholiness...
I get the bad feeling that THIS is how he thinks he's circumvented the Euthyphro dilemma--by declaring virtue and piety to have no causal link.
Then maybe this omniscient God (who is surprisingly human in nature) could just, not create the 'useless' humans in the first place.
Eh, nevermind. Maybe it's best not to let logic intrude into a place where idiocy reigns.
"This logic answers Rob Bell's simplistic concerns regarding the fate of Gandhi and anyone else deemed "good" by humanity; their perceived goodness during their time on Earth is totally irrelevant with regard to their eternal utility in the eyes of God. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp, as even the best Mixed Martial Arts fighter in the world is not considered to be of any value whatsoever to the United States Marine Corps."
Even a stray bog-standard mongrel off the streets can be turned into a drugs/explosives/guard dog by the US armed forces. Just as a rookie off the streets - issued uniform barely warm - can be trained into a disciplined, weapon-using, intelligent soldier.
Before he was a politician, he was an actor. Before he was a wrestler, Jesse Ventura...:
image
...was a Navy SEAL.
The term 'Bad Analogy' exists for a reason .
I love the smell of annihilated arguments - and 'logic' - in the morning. Smells like... victory.
"and if man has been created with an immortal soul"
If. [/Spartan Laconic Wit]
...oh, and re. 'immortal soul', just two words completely destroys not just your argument, but the very basis of your beliefs & dogma: prove it.
Well, that lets VD into heaven all right, and after all, that's all that matters, yes?
Have you lot got any sense when it comes to comparisions or analogies? Someone with martial arts skills would be fasttracked towards special ops. What you're looking for, moreso, is something like this:
"This should not be a difficult concept to grasp, as even someone raised in fundamentalist Baptist or Evangelist beliefs could be considered to be of any value whatsoever to the United States Marine Corps or society in general.
So nothing we do on earth matters? If we spend all our lives doing good things, but God might still condemn us to hell, then why do good things? You might as well be evil. In fact, might as well get as much pleasure as you can from life if your soul is going to be condemned arbitrarily to either heaven or hell after death.
Unless the argument is "If you do good things, you may be found to be worthless, but if you are evil, you will also be found to be worthless". In that case, God's choice of the elect is either completely random or based on criteria that we don't have access to.
Although this kind of person usually thinks that we do have access to those criteria, and all we have to do is do what he says and send him money and he will tell us what they are.
Also, I think the best Martial Arts Fighter in the world would be of value to the Marine Corps. He'd be easier to train up in their inimitable way.
So the marines have no use for someone who is already hardened, tough, fit, used to pushing him/herself, and very good at fighting?
Yeah...you're stupid...
For a while I was starting to think that Vox Day was a long-running elaborate poe, but now I'm sort of starting to suspect that this man is mentally disturbed and entirely disconnected from reality.
Honest to God, some of the things that Christians in this country say are infinitely more blasphemous than anything I've ever heard said by Aleister Crowley or Anton LaVey. In fact, I'm starting to suspect that fundamentalist Christianity in all its forms is really a secretive devil-worshiping cult...
If God only needs people to be useful to him, why did he create free will?
If God doesn't need the people he throws into Hell and is trying to get rid of them, why not destroy their souls and give them oblivion instead of UNENDING SUFFERING?
"It is perhaps useful to think about heaven and hell in terms of utility rather than fairness. If God has a purpose for man beyond the grave and is distinguishing between those He finds useful for that purpose and those He does not, and if man has been created with an immortal soul, then obviously something must be done with those immortal souls who have been determined to be of no use to Him."
You mean like, oh, I don't know, maybe not creating them in the first place?
Why do you people claim omniscience and omnipotence--not to mention omnibenevolence--for your favorite invisible friend and then fail to understand the consequences of those attributes? If your god is, indeed, omniscient then he should never create anyone who is of no use to him or he knows will not worship him. And no, "free will" isn't going to cut it as an excuse.
@ Horsefeathers:
You forgot to mention that free will opens up a bigger can of worms. If God is truly omnibenevolent, then that means that He would not create beings and expect them to be mindless slaves. Worship is so undignified, after all...
> their perceived goodness during their time on Earth is totally irrelevant with regard to their eternal utility in the eyes of God.
So God is a cold-blooded bureaucrat, then? Ready to completely screw you over if you fail to cross the t's and dot the i's? No concern for your dignity, no concern for your value? Cruel, uncaring extraterrestrial entity who is only concerned for efficiency?
And these people keep whining about The Big Government. The mind boggles.
Well, boiled down to its true thoughts, yes, VD, the Christian concepts of heaven and hell are not fair... at all. The rest of your post is stupid fantasies.
>awesome altruist who gave up a decent life to free an entire country from colonization and wound up killed for it
"Pfft, useless, what is this crap?"
>douchebag fundie who posts on the Internet all day slinging proselytizing arrows so he can feel better about himself
"Now we're talking!"
Your god has some retarded priorities.
Human morality means nothing to God. His morality is beyond human comprehension, and he judges people by their usefulness to him. He is so far above humanity that humans all seem equally depraved to him.
The face of God is too much for humanity; no human could look on his face without madness.
God is immortal and vast, and one day he will return to Earth and bring on the Apocalypse . . .
. . . Ia! Ia! Jehovah fhtagn?
A complete bell-end wrote:
as even the best Mixed Martial Arts fighter in the world is not considered to be of any value whatsoever to the United States Marine Corps.
I seem to recall during one of VD's MRA rants, that he was a proponent of MMA. Maybe he was turned away from the USMC because of his mental stability...
It is perhaps useful to think about heaven and hell in terms of utility rather than fairness. If Allah has a purpose for man beyond the grave and is distinguishing between those He finds useful for that purpose and those He does not, and if man has been created with an immortal soul, then obviously something must be done with those immortal souls who have been determined to be of no use to Him. This logic answers Vox Days simplistic concerns regarding the fate of George Bush and anyone else deemed "good" by humanity; their perceived goodness during their time on Earth is totally irrelevant with regard to their eternal utility in the eyes of Allah. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp, as even the best Mixed Martial Arts fighter in the world is not considered to be of any value whatsoever to Allahs mujahiddeen.
"The face of God is too much for humanity; no human could look on his face without madness.
God is immortal and vast, and one day he will return to Earth and bring on the Apocalypse . . .
. . . Ia! Ia! Jehovah fhtagn?"
DAMMIT, you said it before I did!
Cthulu looks downright BENEVOLENT here...
@#1339553:
In such a scenario, people would follow Teddy Beale's God solely because if they don't, God will kill them and then resurrect them for an eternity of agonizing pain. I'll actually cut him some slack and refrain from using the word "torture" since Beale is arguing here that, properly speaking, Hell isn't punishment, it's simply a garbage disposal; in other words, God doesn't deliberately torture them, He's simply utterly, coldly indifferent to their pain.
Of course, actually loving such a God would be impossible for anyone sane. Fortunately, though,Beale's God doesn't seem to require love from His subjects, only fear, unquestioning obedience and a pledge of eternal loyalty.
So yeah...sheer self-preservation. I can't think of any other reason anyone would want to follow the eldritch abomination that Beale worships.
Why should God have a "purpose" for man beyond the grave? I thought He was omnipotent. I don't have any particular purpose for crows or racoons, but I don't go around torturing them. I'd have to have a pretty selfish and shallow set of values to measure everything's worth and its right to exist in this world by its personal utility to ME.
So according to Vox, God loves complete tools and not actual human beings.
Explains a lot, actually.
But wait, if everyone is created with and for a purpose pre-determined by God doesn't that make punishing people for their lack of use just a dick move overall, since their lives and their value were determined beforehand?
well, MMA is a good basis for marine combat training. plus, they got a strong mentality. so basically, your example sucks.
on to your point, so god throws everyone he cannot use in the bin to be eternally tormented? that is definetly not in my defenition of good. especially since he is omniscient, so he knows in advance who would pass and who wouldn't. so your idea sucks too.
who would've guessed.
Evening, Vox, nice to read you again.
I'm quite fond of rejecting everything that you ever say, but everyone got here before I did, so I'll just leave you with this:
Lake of fire? No. Eternal queue at the DMV? That's Hell. Sorry dear.
You have to first provide evidence for the existence of gods, and for your one in particular, before it's useful to discuss what purpose said god could have.
Why isn't the best MMA fighter considered useful to the Marine Corps? Are they too weak?
A lot of concepts are way too difficult for little VD to grasp...
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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