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Quote# 84240

WAGNER: Well, we take literally what the Bible says. We believe that Israel composes the people of God, and that they have fallen away at the moment, but that God has grafted the Gentiles into the same roots. So that's why we're very strong supporter of Israel, because we feel that Israel is the root of our faith. And so we support Israel strongly. We know that there's a - there's not really good religious freedom in Israel. We're very sorry about that.

But the Bible says that someday - and don't ask me how this is going to happen, because it seems impossible - that all of Israel will be saved, that they'll all believe in Jesus. So we just take that by faith, and none of our activities are geared toward that or anything else, but we just believe that that's going to happen. So before Jesus returns, Israel, as a social group, will acknowledge Jesus Christ as their messiah.

GROSS: So one of the reasons or the major reason that you support Israel is because you believe one day the Jews in Israel will basically convert to Christianity and accept Jesus as their savior.

...

GROSS: One thing about that, and this is something that confuses me. On the one hand, you say that you respect all religions, and that that's something our Constitution guarantees us. But at the same time, you want as many like-minded Christians as possible in positions in the arts, the media, the government, business, school. And also, you think Christianity is the only true faith. You'd like Jews in Israel to convert to Christianity. It just seems kind of contradictory to, you know, on the one hand, say you respect all religions, but to, on the other hand, say that you really want people to convert to yours.

WAGNER: Well, we - yes, we respect all religions, but we also respect the freedom of exercising our religion. And part of our religion is called evangelization. It's called presenting Jesus Christ to others and persuading them to become followers of Jesus Christ and walk into the kingdom of God. So - so we'd like to maintain our right in a plural - in religious pluralism of exercising our privilege of winning other people to Christianity.

C. Peter Wagner, Fresh Air 46 Comments [10/9/2011 9:09:56 AM]
Fundie Index: -28
Submitted By: Theorem
WTF?! || meh
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werewolf

It's interesting to smell the Christianist asshole viewpoint wafting from various orifices. Amazing where stupidity and ignorance can lead you.

10/9/2011 9:25:44 AM

Zeus Almighty

Yes! And every Muslim will convert to Hinduism, and all Hindus will convert to Buddhism. Cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria. Or something.

Also, if evangelization is the mark of a True Christian, wouldn't that mean that Jehovah's Witlesses are the most christian of all?

10/9/2011 9:43:10 AM

christopher

So evangelism is fundy now? Color me unimpressed.

10/9/2011 9:43:57 AM

Bollox

Not very fundie, I must say.

10/9/2011 9:53:35 AM

RayO_ElGatubelo

Didn't anyone tell you it's rude to proselytize?

10/9/2011 9:57:55 AM

farpadokly

That's fine as long as the conversions are genuinely agreed to, by the free will of the converted, and you don't use force and psychological abuse to gain converts.
Oh, and of course you won't mind Muslims in your town also seeking to proselytize. After all, it's part of their religion, which they also claim as the only true and universal one.
And you won't mind me distributing some atheist pamphlets in your neighbourhood either.

10/9/2011 10:03:02 AM

Murdin

It does show Christianity for what it really is. Sure, it's not pretty. But IMHO, it's not fundie, either.

10/9/2011 10:07:36 AM

christopher

@RayO_ElGatubelo: What's wrong with people who believe they've found the truth trying to get others to believe in it as well? Isn't it a good thing to believe in the truth (completely apart from any further benefits that a particular religion might ascribe to that belief)? And if you have something good and can, without diminishing it, give it to others, shouldn't you try to do so?

10/9/2011 10:15:17 AM

RayO_ElGatubelo

@ Christopher

Have you ever had somebody randomly tell you, "I'd like to talk to you about Jesus." It can get annoying.

10/9/2011 10:19:26 AM

Osiris

@Bollox: So supporting Israel for no other reason then out of the hope they will spontaneously all become Christian and help trigger the Apocalypse isn't fundie?

10/9/2011 10:21:02 AM

Raised by Horses

"Supporters of Israel" exposed for the massive hypocrites that they are.

10/9/2011 10:23:36 AM

whatever

"But the Bible says that someday - and don't ask me how this is going to happen, because it seems impossible - that all of Israel will be saved, that they'll all believe in Jesus. So we just take that by faith, and none of our activities are geared toward that or anything else, but we just believe that that's going to happen. So before Jesus returns, Israel, as a social group, will acknowledge Jesus Christ as their messiah."

About as likely as the Rapture. Less likely in fact because the Rapture would be entirely the work of God and Jesus... so as a single event the Rapture's probability is slightly higher than Wagner's idea of the Israeli Jews all suddenly converting to Christianity at the same moment, because that suggests thousands, if not millions, of individuals all making the same decision on their own, independently, all during one particular short timeframe.

(Gosh I type long sentences don't I?)

Perhaps Wagner is not really a true fundy, but he certainly embodies the spirit of fundy logic.

10/9/2011 10:31:03 AM

Anon-e-moose

"And part of our religion is called evangelization. It's called presenting Jesus Christ to others and persuading them to become followers of Jesus Christ and walk into the kingdom of God. So - so we'd like to maintain our right in a plural - in religious pluralism of exercising our privilege of winning other people to Christianity.2

Fine. Just as long as you lot realise that Muslims have as much right to win over you to Allah.

...what's that, You don't like that concept? Well then. Now you know why 'Separation of Church and State' exists in your country, C. Peter Wanker. And I live in a country - Britain - that actually has a state religion, the Church of England. Sure, we have Freedom of Worship. That also means the Freedom, nay, the Right to not Worship too. Also, that you don't have the right to force your 'beliefs' on everyone else.

Here endeth the lesson.

10/9/2011 10:34:09 AM

Brendan Rizzo

Meh. I actually don't see the contradiction in "on the one hand, say you respect all religions, but to, on the other hand, say that you really want people to convert to yours." After all, doesn't our side have the exact same idea? Surely you don't want there to be willfully-ignorant fundies in perpetuity, do you?

10/9/2011 10:37:22 AM

aaa

Seen worse, at least he's honest about his beliefs.

10/9/2011 10:44:28 AM

Canadia

Par for the course.

10/9/2011 10:46:14 AM

Axel

Seems decidedly un-fundie to me. He respects people's right to practice their religion, even if he believes it's incorrect. He's upfront about what he believes, too.

I imagine that, if he met other people trying to proselytize to him, he'd just kindly say "No thanks" and move on. I don't know any more about the guy, myself, though, so I am just going on what's here.

10/9/2011 10:46:44 AM

Karana

Only 33% of the world is Christian. You've all been doing a horrible job persuading everyone quite frankly.

10/9/2011 11:07:37 AM

solomongrundy

Jesus specifically said he was not sent to save Gentiles:

Mark 7:27 But Jesus said unto her (a Greek woman Ed), Let the children (of the House of Israel Ed) first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

Nor were the Disciples to preach to them (Matthew 10:5)
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans

Not until Paul realised his minority religion couldn't grow beyond a fringe cult without embracing the Goyim did things change.

10/9/2011 11:12:11 AM

Doctor Whom

As long as they don't initiate force or fraud, then yes, they do have the right to evangelize to me. I just have the right to say no.

10/9/2011 11:25:19 AM

christopher

@solomongrundy: It's a little dishonest to quote that in this context without quoting the following verses:

28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.

Similarly Matthew 10:5 is reporting an instruction allegedly given to Jesus when sending the disciples to preach during his lifetime, which is superseded by the end of Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

10/9/2011 12:03:40 PM

Wykked Wytch

My fundie-meter isn't reacting, strangely enough.

10/9/2011 12:06:54 PM

Old Viking

Oi vey.

10/9/2011 12:11:27 PM



But of course, when you get your "like minded people" into government and the school system, it's not about you exercizing your freedom of religion, it's about you forcing your particular viewpoint downs others' throats by making laws and changing school curriculum to suit YOU, isn't it? I'd love to see you promoting that same "freedom" if Muslims or any other religion were doing the same thing.

10/9/2011 2:20:46 PM

Brianisha

Isreal is already christian, ever heard of the Jews for Jesus? Anyways, its nice to know that Christians use a certain sect to make Armageddon happen.

10/9/2011 2:46:11 PM
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