No one forced Jews to convert or die ~ they gave them a choice ~ convert or LEAVE. Same with the Moslems.
It was a few years later with the Moresco rebellion where King Philippe I/II had to deal harshly with the residual Moorish non-converts (they'd lied about it).
Although the situation is highly complex a large number of them got booted out to North Africa and a large number simply boarded for America and other Spanish dominions.
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And after that, other countries kicked out/killed Jews because the monarchs wanted the Spanish princesses. The Jews were forced into only a few countries that would take them and they were spit upon pretty much everywhere they went and had no rights. Spain's culture also entered a dark, stagnant period after the Jews and Muslims were kicked out.
So many people have suffered at the hands of your benevolent sky fairy. I'm sure you'll all for handing out smallpox infected blankets to those you consider heathens. What a benevolent, caring, and compassionate religion you have.
Judaism spawned Christianity, and although neither mythology has a Karmic doctrine everything in life is relative and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I lost count at 103 times Jews committed genocide in the Bible, both Christians and Jews consider those acts holy. So drawing a distinction between Christians and Jews is apples and oranges, both are cut from the same cloth and are equally guilty of precipitating mass death and prejudice.
Nobody EXCEPT the whole christian state of the kingdom of Spain and the holy inquisition, forced jews to convert or die
Nobody EXCEPT the whole christian state of the kingdom of Spain and the holy inquisition, forced muslims to convert or die
How very ironic that a poster with a vaguely-Arabic sounding name is in favor of Christians... He's also using the French variant of the name of a Spanish king. Does he just not see how barbaric the "convert or leave" mentality even is? If that sort of thing happened in modern America, there would be a shitstorm! (And rightfully so.) Freedom of religion, bitch. I am also pretty darn sure that the so-called conversos were discriminated against anyway, thus beginning racism as we know it. Yes, the Spanish are responsible for all evils from the genocide of Native Americans, to the scourge of imperialism, to the Holocaust, to all the crap that's going on in the developing world now. Blame them, please.
@ jesusaur:
While we all agree that the crimes of the ancient Israelites are unforgivable, we can't say that their descendants, who did not partaken in those acts, are equally deserving of punishment. That would be like saying that 80% or so of American Christians who aren't fundies deserve to be punished for the uncountable crimes against science and reason committed during the Middle Ages. "The sins of the father shall be borne upon the sons" is considered barbaric nowadays for a reason.
No one forced Jews to convert or die ~ they gave them a choice ~ convert or LEAVE.
Actually, there was a third choice: "convert or leave or die". If the Jews took over and offered the same choice to a Baptist, which one would the Baptist choose?
Convert or leave is forcing people to convert, because losing your house and your means of living is the mean of giving no choice. Second, the moriscos lied about their conversion because they were forced to convert. They never asked their opinion. You see, when you give no options, not real ones, that's what happens. Guess what, many of them decided to go to Tunisia anyway. Wonder why. And I'll give you a little clue. At the end of the eighteen century, the left side of the Missisippi belonged to Spain and they offered the coloners the right to work there so long they converted to Catholicism and they became subject to the Spanish Crown. The result?, the same with the Jews. At least, be consequent.
@Street sharks-
"Not to mention that these Eastern European, white motherfuckers that call themselves "Jews" today are not the descendants of the brown skinned Ancient Israelites. "
Looky here, we've got a historicaly wrong and racist comment in response to the first historically wrong and racist statement!
Actually, sparky, the European Jews are genetically descended from Middle Easterners, but they've lived in Europe and picked up some Germanic and Slavic genes since they were hangin' out with Constantius Chlorus in Trier. Just look at African-Americans; they've only been separated from Africa for a couple of centuries, and they already look a lot different than the folks back in Nigere.
No one forced Jews to convert or die ~ they gave them a choice ~ convert or LEAVE.
Oh, that makes a huge difference. That's not oppressive bigotry at all, then.
Actually, this post is sorta historically accurate.
It wasn't convert or die.
It was convert (which some of the royal favourites did, as well as others).
Or leave (Spain's loss, both the Jews and Muslims had contributed heavily to Spain's rise as a world power, with them gone...)
Or die. And there were problems with "conversos."
Even before the expulsion some Jews had converted, but were still following Jewish traditions and not really being Christian. This is what the inquisition was set up to deal with, at first anyway. After the expulsion, this became a larger problem, and now that there weren't legally any Jews the inquisition's workload increased.
Fun fact: In some parts of Spain and Portugal today, there are "Christians" which still follow Jewish traditions. The inquisition wasn't 100% effective.
Yeah right, so what's all the fuss about the Christians in the Colosseum in Rome being fed to lions?
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Come on, "they gave them a choice" - convert or be dinner.
You're an apologist for the Spanish Inquisition. Seriously?
Well, now I can turn off the Internet. I've officially seen everything.
No one forced Jews to convert or die ~ they gave them a choice ~ convert or LEAVE.
No one forced protestants to convert or die ~ they gave them a choice ~ convert or LEAVE.
http://www.pfaenders.com/html/salzburger_expulsion.html
So stop whining already. Just leave, see the world, get to know new places, see it as a chance, embrace the new possibilities.
Thank you for exonerating the (Catholic) Archbishop of Salzburg. We all knew all along that he hadn't done anything wrong when he kicked out all the heretics - oops! - protestants.
The first bit is kind of a true thing--they took a long time bothering with the muslims, too, because most of the peasant population of much of Iberia was muslim, and forcing conversion on most of your workforce is just not practicable. Especially because there was an ongoing manpower shortage for most of the late middle ages, so lords in Aragon and points south had to offer benefits to keep their fields working. After the union of Spain it was possible to lay down the law without fear of competition, because it wasn't reasonably feasible for most peasants to move more than a county over even if they got really serious about it.
The second line has issues in that it takes for granted that it was reasonable to insist and necessary to enforce this conversion procedure.
The America bit is dumb. The Inquisition and Columbus' first voyage began in the same year--there wasn't a lot of Spanish-American empire to go to for decades.
...that said, the awesome gene mixes you get in former Spanish America, with the Roman-Germanic-dual-Semitic Iberians and the MesoAmericans a few thousand years out of Siberia, and the dash of Africa, are freaking amazing.
With the name, which as others have pointed out IS Arabic, I almost want to say troll, but he might be the other Freepers' pet self-hating Arab. I can picture them now, going, "you can't call us racist, this Arab agrees with us!" but questioning his motives when he's not around or, heaven forbid, DOESN'T agree with them on something.
@Osiris
...Plus Nero's little post-fire propaganda thing & that the Christians wouldn't pay homage to The Emperor.
Either way, they're all goofballs.
Ok. Convert to Islam, leave, or be killed. And if we find out you lied to us, we'll have to deal harshly with you.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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