[10th Circuit Court strikes down Sharia law ban.]
If you consider Islam a religion, this is a debatable issue in the courts.
Islam, however, is a system of government and NOT a religion.
Currently, Islam infringes on religious and political freedom because our society and courts look at Islam as EXCLUSIVELY a religion.
Islam is a system of government, first and foremost, and it should be considered as such FIRST, and then as a religion second.
There is nothing in the Constitution that provides for Sharia law. Nothing.
This ruling is an end run around an Amendment.
We simply refuse to learn ANYTHING from history when it pertains to Islam. They are either at your throat, or under your heel. Never are they at the table with you.
61 comments
I love this quote:
IRA LUPU: I would have been shocked if there had been contrary outcome. Every responsible First Amendment religion clause lawyer in the United States, of whom I'm aware, as soon as this was passed - before it was passed, when it was being considered - looked at this and said, this is clearly unconstitutional.
"We simply refuse to learn ANYTHING from history...."
And that's your problem. However, since you need a working brain to learn, I understand.
Meh, it's not that far off the mark about Islam. I'm sure people will comment saying that everything he said applies equally to Christianity, and there are crazies who want Christianity as a system of government or their own version of Christian Sharia law implemented, but they are a much smaller segment of the population; Christianity has been de-fanged more than Islam.
And when he said "we refuse to learn anything about history", he was using "we" to the West in general that refuses to learn about the violent history of Islam.
If you consider Christian a religion, this is a debatable issue in the courts.
Christian, however, is a system of government and NOT a religion.
Currently, Christian infringes on religious and political freedom because our society and courts look at Christianas EXCLUSIVELY a religion.
Christian is a system of government, first and foremost, and it should be considered as such FIRST, and then as a religion second.
There is nothing in the Constitution that provides for Bible law. Nothing.
This ruling is an end run around an Amendment.
We simply refuse to learn ANYTHING from history when it pertains to Christian. They are either at your throat, or under your heel. Never are they at the table with you.
Fixed.
What this really goes to show is that you should stop giving bullshit free passes for being a religion, RinaseaofDs. That includes any bullshit and, importantly, any religion!
Sorry to tell old Rinseass this, but I've been at the table with Muslims many times, and they are first-rate cooks.
Again, El- Ahraira, I commend you on your daring and your iron...and trust you will keep them from following you home.
Personally, I'm no more apt to defend Islam than Christianity - they're both two different flavors of a religion I find distasteful at best. However, I'm nothing if not fair, and this practice of taking small pieces of their religious text out of context and claiming it's all part of some conspiracy to take over is ridiculous, esp. when you can do the same with Christianity so easily.
Not only is Islam a religion, but Muslims worship the same God that you do, albeit by a different name. I agree that Sharia law is frankly appalling, but it is not synonymous with the Islamic faith and not all Muslim countries implement it by any stretch of the imagination. I think you would find it would be considered highly unlawful in the USA and the chances of your ever being subjected to it in America are frankly zero.
The problem is that the only image Americans have of Islam is basically the country of Afghanistan, which really IS unreasonable to women. THAT'S the country where you keep hearing about women unable to go out without being accompanied by husbands, that's the country where little girls can be abused or married off, etc.
But America screwed up; it assumed all Muslims were like Afghanistan, and it's now declared war on the entire religion and entire Middle East. So not only did that turn us into racists, but we've squandered an opportunity to punish guilty people by attacking the innocent and turning other countries against us who could have been our allies.
what I imaginge happened was that the court said that sharia civil principles would apply where both parties agreed (as happens in jewish circles and their civil law). This would be subject to possible appeal if one party chose to do it.
F all to do with religion
Ego te absolvo.
Religion and government. One hand washes the other; divide and conquer. First come the Missionaries, then come the soldiers. The names and titles are interchangeable.
When you understand that, you will realize that you are not just learning from revisionist history and rooting for the Home Team.
Re: Reynardine
Well the "Username" was just a random word, but in any case..... how is my thinking wooly, just because I think Islam is a greater threat to society than Christianity?
(And I'm no fan of either by the way, that's why I read this website religiously).
Islam, however, is a system of government and NOT a religion.
If Islam isn't a religion, then why do they pray to Allah? And why do many different countries with people who practice Islam have different forms of government?
We simply refuse to learn ANYTHING from history when it pertains to Islam.
Which is why they keep making terrorist plots against us, and idiots like you can't understand why.
They are either at your throat, or under your heel.
Methinks Rinasea is projecting his supremacist thoughts onto the Other.
There is nothing in the Constitution that provides for Sharia law
Sure there is. First, Sharia law is derived from Mohammad's interpretation of the Old Testament. Christians may not agree with it, but then again, they don't agree with the Orthodox Jews' interpretation of it, either. Second, you're just playing word games. Mohammad is considered by Muslims to be a prophet of God, just like Isaiah or Ezekiel. Any law or "system of government" required by Islam flows from that religious belief; not the other way around.
No, idiot, Theocracy is a form of government with religion at it's base. Islam happens to be the religion guiding the Theocracies of certain countries that scare you. It's a religion you know little about and prefer to think of in terms of some kind of alien hive mind rather than a belief.
Theocracies - so far as my knowledge of history covers - have never ended well regardless of the religious template used thus rendering the religion in question of no importance.
@cardigan
The issue here is the ridiculous, yet vote-winning, fear-mongering done by conservative politicians who act as if there is a danger of Shariah law being implemented in this country, when it is already prevented by the First Amendment.
@noneofyourbusiness:
But in their minds the danger is perfectly reasonable.
The 1st amendment does not mean there is a wall of separation between church and state. There is nothing in the constitution that prevents RinaseaofDs religion being implemented as the state religion so there is nothing to stop Islam either.
@Mister Spak
You've been on here a long time, and you're generally reasonable (as well as funny).
So please, please tell me that last post was sarcastic.
First and foremost, you are a moron.
If Islam is a system of government, explain to me why all Islamic countries aren't all run exactly the same? Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are monarchies, Turkey is a democracy, Iran is theocracy pretending to have democracy, and a host of dictators got the boot over the summer.
Cardigan, your thinking is woolly to begin with because you make the conclusory statement that Islam poses a greater threat of violence to OUR society than Christianity without offering a shred of evidence in support of it, and then you expect us to swallow it, even though the publicly available evidence says otherwise. I therefore assume you are motivated by spite, which has nothing to do with clear thinking. Now, pick up your little ball of yarn and roll back to your sewing drawer.
No you dumbass. If Islam is a religion than Sharia law can never be legislated in the United States because the United States has a separation of church of state. You want Islam to be a religion. But then you'd have to realize that if Islam can't be legislated in America because it's a religion then neither can Christianity, and that would definitively put a stop your Christian Dominionist goals wouldn't it?
@Mister Spak: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." This is called the establishment clause. It means the government cannot use its powers to enforce or establish any one religion over the other. The rest of the freedom of religion means that the government can't restrict religion either. This is what people like me mean when we say there is a separation between church and state. The government can't establish any religion, but it also can't stop people from practicing one either.
Obviously Mr. Spak was speaking as if he were the fundie that believes that the first amendment doesn't mean that there is a seperation. If you approach this as that fundie with that belief that there would be nothing in the consititution preventing sharia law.
I agree with cardigan. Both religions are a threat and christianity maybe more so in the US because of the potential for the tyranny of the majority. But christianity has been reformed, or de-fanged as cardigan put it. Reasonable men in the western world were able to wrest power from the church hundreds of years ago and place it in secular hands. In the west the church has to answer to the state. This has not happened in Islam. The state still answers to the imams.
> Islam is a system of government, first and foremost, and it should be considered as such FIRST, and then as a religion second.
...of course, Christianity is much better, and thank the heavens for that. Majority of Free Republic audience, for example, want to strictly enforce the separation of church and state in the United States.
Oh wait...
We simply refuse to learn ANYTHING from history when it pertains to Islam.
That's easy for you to say because you completely ignore history anyway. History, the rest of the world, and just about everything else too.
Well, I'm sure you blab on about the "Founders" and how their politics just happen to match yours exactly. If you were ever to learn anything about how the Founding Fathers really thought instead of just following your dreams, you'd probably jump off a cliff.
Btw, forget every learning any algebra. The term "algebra" alone should burn your tounge. While you're at it, look up who introduced the concept of "0" to mathematics. It wasn't Christians.
I can think of at least THREE Muslims, by name, that oppose Sharia. They see it as a violation of religious freedom.
Possibly the only thing this guy is right about is the fact that there is nothing in the Constitution that provides for Sharia law.
"Islam, however, is a system of government and NOT a religion."
Would you people try to get on the same page. C'mon, Islam is NOT a religion but atheism IS a religion?
this really hurts my feelings... i mean, that douche is talking about my future master's degree subject. it is debatable yes that islam is a system of government. it is a religion. what is not deniable is that a caliphate or an emirate is a government based on islam.
learn the difference, you ass
First of all, considering that Muslims believe in a deity and have a holy book, I'd say Islam is a religion. Second of all, the implementation of Sharia law here would be blatantly unconstitutional. Third of all, Christians are the fucking majority. Our overwhelmingly Christian congress would vote down any measure to pass sharia law, in the unlikely event that such a bill would make it out of constitution. Fourth of all, you're a moron, and your tinfoil hat's showing. Asshat.
It would be more accurate to say that it's a religion with some political aspects. It meets all the criteria for definition as a religion. Ritual, beliefs, holy days, a deity, prayer etc.
Christianity and Judaism are also religions which also have political aspects. The system of sharia law is an echo of the laws of the old testament. See where this is going?
@#1367421
Reynardine
El- Ahraira
Wait... You were eating dinner with a rabbit what
How did it make food big enough for you to eat? For that matter, how did you find silverware big enough for a rabbit to use? Oh God I'm so confused.
Re: Reynardine
You probably won't read this, but seriously, you demand evidence from me that Islam is a greater threat to our society (I guess meaning the U.S.?) than Christianity? And you just stated that Christianity is a bigger threat without a shred of evidence in that direction! Ever pick up a newspaper in the last 10 or 11 years or so? World Trade Centre, Salman Rushdie, various other terrorist attempts, Theo van Gogh, all this from what is a small minority population. Christians are the largest religious group in the west and by comparison they have a few abortion clinic murders, attempts to teach intelligent design, and a lot of anti-gay rhetoric (as if any of those would be fewer in a Muslim-majority society).
@freako104
We'll have to disagree there. Sharia would undoubtedly lead to the curtailing of the very freedoms that would allow it to be passed in the first place.
I wouldn't want to see it in the US, or anywhere else for that matter. Indeed, I'd rather not have any laws formulated by a theocracy, regardless of its historical or religious basis.
Cardigan, you have the wool over your eyes. All you need to do is look at all the draconian religious laws that are being proposed in both Congress and state legislatures, in defiance of the Constitution. These people are a threat to THIS country. Go to Wallbuilders and check it out. But not one Muslim in this country is a threat to our Constitution.
It was George W. Bush who started a Holy War against a country who had given us no casus belli, and his letter to Jacque Chirac leaves no question that religious fanatacism was his motive. That, in itself has killed not only far more Muslims on their soil than they have killed of us on ours, but has caused far more American dead than the Towers ever did. You think Christianity has been defanged? Well, under Dominionist influence, its teeth are growing.
@Watership Down: too bad you don't know how to read paragraphs sequentially. The first addressed having been at the table with Muslims, who are good, if spicy, cooks. The second addressed the author of this post, Rabbit, whose courage in going to such sites is that of El-Ahraira. I have shared my own table with a rabbit, Mr. Winter, and gave him his own salad bowl, but I didn't address that till now. It grows late; I am through with explanations. Good night.
So we have 'Islam isn't a religion', and another quote of 'Hitler was a radical Muslim' .
One more and this will be a complete three-ring circus. Or maybe that's sugarcoating it...
Yeah I'm afraid I don't care much for the idea of "Sharia law" being acceptable in America. Isn't part of that law "honor killings"?
Do we really want to walk down that road?
I think a better, more proactive, way to do this is, the religion itself can be accepted/tollerated, but if the "Law" within violates laws we already have in place, then I don't see why that should be protected.
Radaghast, as I understand it, the scenario you recommend is exactly what happens in countries where Sharia is not "banned". Essentially, it has no "real" legal power - muslims go to these made up courts of their own volition and agree to abide by the rulings it comes up with. (I am not 100% sure about this, but it is the impression I get from the fallout surrounding an English bishop advocating that British muslims be allowed to peacefully get on with it. The conservatives span it in the way you're interpreting it and the signals got pretty crossed so a lot of even non-conservative people came out confused.)
#1367597
While racism also played a role, off the top of my head the actions of the KKK, the Oklahoma City bombing, and the increasing violence against abortion clinics and providers (the feminist sites I visit have covered three just this month) not to mention the incredible power the Christian right has over the Republican party right now at the cost of everyone else, and it's painfully obvious to those of us who read up on it that the Christian fundamentalists in this country are in fact regrowing their teeth, with a vengeance.
Cardigan.
I think your understanding of history, both ancient and modern is flawed if you think Islam is any greater threat than Christianity.
The Lord's Resistance army, Abortion clinic bombings, the multiply attacks on and then killing of Dr.Tiller to name the most modern ones.
if you look back through history, Christianity, or more precisely people who claimed to be Christian have just done just as terrible things, supposedly in the name of their religion.
Find a better argument.
There is no need for a Sharia law ban, you doorknob. The separation of church and state in America prevents it. So the next you're whining that the government isn't using tax dollars to enforce your Christian dogma, remember that it's also not using tax dollars to enforce Muslim dogma.
Sorry, if Islam is a religion, why do they have a theology and a set of rituals AND they exist as minorities in other countries?. Following your logic, EVERY religion on Earth is a system of government.
The OP is a bible-bashing nut, but he does have a point.
The issue he has, though, is that this form of undue credence (which is a form of "political correctness") isn't being granted to HIS special club, but is instead being given to another!
"DAYUMN GUBMINT! GIVIN' THE DAYUMN MUZZIES SPECIAL TREATMENT INSTEAD OF US!"
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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