hey that exodus text isn't saying the woman miscarried its saying she went into labor prematurely.
Exodus 2122 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out[she gives birth], but there is no harm[to either the woman OR the child], the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm[miscarriage or injury to the woman],then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot," emphasis added She and the baby are NOT hurt in verse 22. In verse 23 it is clear that causing a miscarriage is a capital offense; life for life. You have to read the text. As for the passage in Numbers 5, God causes miscarriages and he is the only person who can. I don't think it is not our place to kill unborn children even if it is our own. A parent can be arrested for neglecting their child because that child has a claim on the parent for life support. It's the same for unborn children. We just refuse to recognize "fetuses" for what they are, people.
Also just because some christian wrote in a magazine 30 years ago does not make the Bible contradicting in anyway. That person is just failing to interpret the text but he's not perfect neither are you. Even Christians are going to have their differences and thats ok as long as we can agree on who Jesus is and what he's done.
If your dog meows does that mean its not a dog anymore? If you change a quarter for two dimes and a nickel does that mean you don't have twenty-five cents anymore? People mess up stop holding it over their head and forgive them lest you be found in their place, roles reversed.
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Back in the bronze ages, if you punch a woman hard enough to have her poop out a baby prematurely,I dont think it was very good news for the newborn...closest hospital was something like 700 years away.
Fun fact, the NIV has a footnote on this;
22 “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
...
[e] Exodus 21:22 Or she has a miscarriage
According to the Bible, you weren't counted among your people until 40 days after your birth.
As so many newborn died, and as there was no help for prematures, it was better to not get attached to a new baby until it had shown it was able to survive at least 40 days.
We just refuse to recognize "fetuses" for what they are, people.
So what if we did, Brian?
Once pregnancy is determined, must her doctor prescribe strict bedrest to prevent any possibility of miscarriage? If she does miscarry, must the police investigate that her actions (like going to work, shopping, not following strict bedrest, etc.) were not the root cause? What if she's found "guilty" of a miscarry? What kind of sentence should she receive compared to someone who kills an adult? What if no one is found responsible for the miscarriage? What then?
Once pregnancy is determined, should the federal government issue a social security number? Should the state issue an ID? If there's a miscarriage, is the family entitled to government death benefits? Does the family need to have a public funeral to receive such benefits? Is the family entitled to a (prorated) deduction like for other dependents on their federal and/or state income taxes?
You can see how complex and convoluted this can all become very quickly...
Beating a pregnant woman enough that the baby falls out is a FUCKING PROBLEM. It does not matter whether it died or not.
If fetuses are declared fully functional human beings you should do the same for cows and teratocarcinomas and murderers.
But you wouldn't because you're a hypocrite.
They're talking about the woman as in "if there's injury to the woman" it does NOT say that a miscarriage requires the death penalty. You're reading that into the text yourself. And it makes sense if you read it as "harm to the woman" because last I heard, punching a woman so hard that the fetus exits the vagina is usually fatal to the fetus if not always. You can't just add clarifications in parentheses and pretend that that makes it official and beyond debate.
Why would someone who induced labor in a pregnant woman, given your own weird interpretation, be fined? Plus, hitting a pregnant woman isn't okay, under any circumstances.
Isn't a sin to add to the Holly Bable? Hope you enjoy Hades/Hell filthy heathen!
Also, "An eye for an eye makes the world go blind...."
However, the more news I read, I am drifting towards, "an eye for an eye makes the world go blind, but what if the world deserves to go blind?"
If one goes into labor way too early THAT IS a miscarraige, you dolt.
P.S. If my dog meows, that means I'm going to be rich.
Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but if a woman went into premature labor during biblical times, didn't that generally mean the baby died?
We don't know what the authors meant by "no harm". The part about "either the woman OR the child" is non-biblical invention. The Bible gives no indication that fetuses were "people". In fact, given the elaborate details about what you can eat and who you can see naked and how a woman should conduct herself during her period, you'd think if the issue had been important, it would have been included. Jewish scholars have counted 615 OT rules - would it have killed them to add a 616th about "no abortion"?
Abortion methods have been around *forever*. It's nothing new, and let's face it, we're not underpopulated by a long shot. Abortion is not pretty, it's not easy, but sometimes it's just plain necessary.
If we ever get to a point where every child on the planet that is born is taken care of and loved, I might change my views. But that hasn't ever happened before and at our rate it never will.
As far as my reading of the King James Version of the same verse goes, "mischief" is only if the woman dies, then it is a capital offense. Infants weren't even counted until at least a month old since so many died after a few days of being born.
Is a baby a fetus if it is still a zygote? according to fundies, yes, yes it is.
most people dont support the abortion of fetus'. aborting a developed, or even partially developed fetus is dangerous for the mother. this is why they generally dont do it in the third trimester unless there is no other option but death.
until then though, the pregnancy is more or less just a mass of stem cells thats only purpose is to multiply. this is what abortions are normally removing. at this point, the only reason you would consider this a baby human, is because it has human dna. thats where the similiarities end however, and a zygote could be described more accurately a parasite than a baby.
I don't think it is not our place to kill unborn children even if it is our own.
Err, does Brother Brian realize what he just wrote? May we quote him on that? Taking that quote the way it's written, he supports abortion.
Interesting.
Btw, the original article (to which the above quote was a comment) is very worth reading.
Again, the King James version, "if there mischief follows", appears to refer to if the woman dies, or is left ill or sterile; this tracks a similar passage in the Hammurabic code. The indemnity or the death penalty were imposed for harm to the woman. No harm could be incurred by the fetus, regarded as not yet alive.
I don't think it is not our place to kill unborn children even if it is our own.
Okay Brian, when you grow a uterus we'll talk.
A parent can be arrested for neglecting their child because that child has a claim on the parent for life support. It's the same for unborn children. We just refuse to recognize "fetuses" for what they are, people.
That's because a child is an actual person. A fetus is not. If that were true social security cards would be issued when we were concived, not after we're born.
Do you want to be just like Brian? Here's how:
Cut a large hole in the top of your skull. Place the beaters of an electric mixer inside that hole and turn the mixer on full speed for several seconds. Pull the mixer out and replace the piece of skull that you removed.
If that does not make you just like Brian then repeat that process.
So let me get this straight, you pompous cockmonger.
1. Miscarriage/abortion is sinful, but "God doesn't play by our rules! Herp derp!"
2. So this guy supposedly got it wrong because he's human, but YOU got it right. What are you, a god? No? How do you know YOU have it right?
*headdesk*
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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