Quote# 87013

In the submission, Lord Carey said the outward expression of traditional conservative Christian values has effectively been "banned" under a new "secular conformity of belief and conduct".

The former archbishop argued that in "case after case" British courts have failed to protect Christian values and urged European judges to correct the balance.

He said there was a "drive to remove Judeo-Christian values from the public square" and argued UK courts have "consistently applied equality law to discriminate against Christians" as they show a "crude" misunderstanding of the faith by treating some worshippers as "bigots".

In his submission, Lord Carey, who was archbishop from 1991 to 2002, wrote: "In a country where Christians can be sacked for manifesting their faith, are vilified by state bodies, are in fear of reprisal or even arrest for expressing their views on sexual ethics, something is very wrong.

"It affects the moral and ethical compass of the United Kingdom. Christians are excluded from many sectors of employment simply because of their beliefs; beliefs which are not contrary to the public good."

He added: "It is now Christians who are persecuted; often sought out and framed by homosexual activists.

Lord Carey, Huffington Post 50 Comments [4/22/2012 3:08:28 AM]
Fundie Index: 44
Submitted By: Limey

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Ah, but they are contrary to the public good, Carey. You just cannot see it due to your moral myopia. Just a hint, it's not all about you lot . And since when did ceasing to show favoritism to Christians equal vilifying them? Yet more proof they are worse than the most spoiled of children.

4/22/2012 3:37:15 AM


I don't even need to look into anything about this Carey person - or about whatever he thinks is such a problem - to know that this is bullshit of the highest order: not only is it a lie, Carey KNOWS it's a lie but says it anyway because it benefits him personally. Christians in Britain are no more discriminated against than Muslims are in Iran. That's not even getting into the sheer, blinding arrogance of the presumption that a certain sub-sect of Christians AND THESE CHRISTIANS ALONE are the only ones, ever, who know how best to perform towards the "public good", whatever that means.

Furthermore, as Anon-e-moose loves to remind us all, England has an OFFICIAL STATE CHURCH, which is about as far from discriminating against Christians as it is possible to get (yes, I know England is only a part of Britain, but the point stands).

4/22/2012 4:23:35 AM

D Laurier

Bloody hell.
Christians are not persecuted. Not in England. Not in America. Not in Saudi Arabia (where native christian sects are legaly protected from foreign harrassment)
Not in China. Not in any country on earth.

If some christian bigots cant obey the same laws that everyone else has to obey, they will be treated exactly like muslim bigots, jewish bigots, or agnostic bigots, who express their bigotry through harrassing homosexuals.

4/22/2012 4:39:05 AM

Mr Blur


Christians don't make as much noise over here (we may have a state religion but few people care about it) but no reasonable person could call them persecuted.

4/22/2012 5:10:29 AM

Brendan Rizzo

When will they learn the difference between Christians and fundies? At least no one takes this man seriously.

4/22/2012 5:12:39 AM


Not to be preferred at all times, is to be persecuted: I'm glad to see it's not just this side of the Pond that hears that.

4/22/2012 5:34:51 AM


Huh, a British fundie that sounds like an American one. Not something that hasn't shown up on here, but usually it's wingnut Americans like the people on RR.

4/22/2012 5:35:26 AM

Argle Bargle

Once again, a government not endorsing a particular faith does not mean that it harbors ill will towards it. But then again, in fundies cry persecution every time someone threatens their hegemony.

4/22/2012 5:49:34 AM


@Brendan Rizzo

The thing is, Carey does have influence. That's why he's sitting in the House of Lords.

It's one of the things that really needs to be addressed, the idea of the Church of England having a block of appointed seats in the upper house is preposterous in a democratic society.

4/22/2012 5:51:06 AM


Fundie to English translation:

In place of "traditional conservative Christian values", "Judeo-Christian values", "manifesting their faith", "views on sexual ethics" and "beliefs which are not contrary to the public good":

Please substitute "discrimination against gay people".

4/22/2012 6:01:55 AM


This is not the case in Sweden. There was a court case recently, with parents who had done a very violent exorcism on their daughter. They were acquitted due to religious freedom.

4/22/2012 6:20:41 AM

Secretly Pagan

Cue the persecuted, persecuted, not persecuted picture.

4/22/2012 6:21:38 AM

The Christian right is neither right nor Christian.

4/22/2012 6:25:05 AM


Exactly how does one "consistently applied equality law to discriminate against Christians?" Sounds like someone is afraid of actual equality.

4/22/2012 6:55:31 AM


Oh fuck off out of my country.

4/22/2012 7:10:44 AM

Filin De Blanc

"often sought out and framed by homosexual activists"

Name one time this has ever in the history of the world happened.

4/22/2012 7:12:38 AM


@D Laurier,

I think you might be wrong about Christians not being persecuted in -any- country. Several Muslim countries, as well as Korea and India, have seen ongoing mass killings of Christians based on their religion. Militant groups bombing churches, rounding people up and slaughtering them, sometimes hundreds at a time. And while it's not a government-sanctioned persecution, there doesn't seem to be much stopping the killers.

4/22/2012 7:48:07 AM


Christians definition of persecution = not being allowed to persecute others and force Christianity on everyone.

4/22/2012 7:55:24 AM


For "traditional conservative Christian values" read "homophobia".
For "secular conformity of belief and conduct" read "tolerance".
These "Christian/Judeo-Christian values" he talks about are nothing but personal prejudices. They're treated as bigots because they are bigots.
However, let them say whatever they want. Let them wear crosses at work. Let them even express their bigotry and hate under the guise of "expressing their views on sexual ethics".
And anyway, Carey is being disingenuous. We all know that the mass of British people are not religious. It's a small minority of born agains and evangelicals and cults, influenced by American Christianity, the kind of people who like to knock on your door and give you pamphlets, the kind who like to set up youth rallies where Christian rock bands play songs about how awesome God is to ranks of sexually frustrated teens with their arms in the air, that are causing all the trouble. They're the people who, like the American religious right, have simply glommed onto Christianity because it lets them be right wing and prejudiced and hateful with impunity.
Most Christians in the UK, even the born agains, are fairly moderate. But they're increasingly influenced by the American evangelical brand of Christianity which is just reactionary politics in disguise.

4/22/2012 8:01:29 AM


George Orwell in 1940: "Also, the common people (of England)are without religious belief, and have been so for centuries. The Anglican Church never had a real hold on them, it was simply a preserve of the landed gentry, and the Nonconformist sects only influenced minorities. And yet they have retained a deep tinge of Christian feeling, while almost forgetting the name of Christ." That was true in 1940 and in many ways it's still true now.
(Note that the situation is slightly different in Scotland, where a more extreme type of Protestantism was adopted at the Reformation, but the above more or less applies here too.)
The "nonconformist sects" he mentions, Puritans and Quakers etc, often had to go elsewhere to worship their own way, often to America, and now their descendants have come back at us with a new malignant form of Christianity.

4/22/2012 8:10:14 AM

4/22/2012 8:24:48 AM

D Laurier

I do recall a pair of men executed for murder in Afghanistan, sometime in the 1990s.
They were christian, but they were executed for killing fellow christians.

There was also (if I recall correctly) an incident where a particularly obnoxious American fundie was deported from China in the 1960s, after he picked a fight in a temple. Seems he went to China seeking martyrdom.

A few christians have desecrated hindu temples in India, and suffered the wrath of the hindu community. But this has ziltch to do with their being christian.
When muslims desecrate hindu temples in India, hindus retaliate. Same applies to christians, (and even other hindus).

These incidents are of course twisted by American fundamentalist media, and portrayed as massed persecution. But you could be right.. I could also be missing actual incidents of persecution.

4/22/2012 8:36:05 AM


Different country, same shit. The public has decided that Christians don't have the right to persecute non-Christians, and the Christians have decided this a form of persecution against them.

4/22/2012 9:01:02 AM


No, you're not being discriminated against in the work place or being barred from 'many sectors of employment'

If you're referring to the courts upholding the right of private companies to ban jewellery on their staff for health and safety reasons (including crosses), there is no compulsion for Christians to wear any form of religious iconography.

It's no more true than if I said 70s disco fans were being discriminated against because they aren't allowed to wear medallions nestled in their chest hair.

4/22/2012 9:13:18 AM

Thinking Allowed

4/22/2012 9:15:10 AM

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