Quote# 87075


Of countries that lived must better under imperialism than without it, well, lets just say Africa and be done with it. Civilization, the rule of law, infrastructure improvements, advances in medicine have all been spread through imperialism of some kind. Once the imperialistic whites were removed from Africa, the Flower of Rhodesia became the starving poverty stricken Zimbabwe. Without an imperial force, Nigeria is in a religious civil war right now. The colonial government of Somalia left and we have - Somalia. Without an imperial army, we had the Hutu Tutsi war, starving Biafrans and the genocidal war of Rwanda. It's a wonder what's left of the sane people in Africa haven't asked the Boers to come back!

Imperialism is a necessary component of progress. I'm certainly happy that there was an Imperial Rome, an Imperial Britian and if there wasn't an Imperial Spain, we likely wouldn't be here.

Kathy64, Where Liberty Dwells 54 Comments [4/25/2012 3:05:24 AM]
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There is a special type of irony when something like this is said in a place called "Where Liberty Dwells".

4/25/2012 3:25:38 AM


A simplistic view of history but not fundie

4/25/2012 3:29:48 AM


Erm, the Boers are still in South Africa. It was the British who left.

4/25/2012 3:37:20 AM


Do me a favor and read a little history before you make statements like this. Imperialism robbed Africa of many of its natural resources, causing some of the tension. The Rwandan genocide was a natural byproduct of the Dutch creating divisions between the people that didn't previously exist.

4/25/2012 3:44:59 AM

This belongs in RSTDT.

4/25/2012 4:25:00 AM


Seems to belong more in RSTDT, considering that Kathy only mentions European imperialists and not, say, every other expansionist, exploiting society that has ever lived. Something tells me that they aren't in any hurry to give such praise to, the Ottomans or the Mongols.

4/25/2012 4:39:36 AM


The country of Africa, eh? You betcha. ;)

4/25/2012 5:28:00 AM


I think the United States should try to be neutral as with the World Wars, except stay with it this time.

4/25/2012 5:34:11 AM

Mister Spak

Then you will happily submit to the Imperial Caliphate of Allah, right? No more of those annoying problems of democracy?

4/25/2012 5:36:33 AM


If you deny those you rule a place in society, without access to good education, good jobs, and treat them as second or third class citizens, then when you remove yourself from the equation they are left with little more than they had before. The trouble with imperialism wasn't the introduction of sound government, it was in denying those under it an opportunity to participate and learn how to use it.

4/25/2012 5:50:06 AM


Yeah, definitely more of an RSTDT post.

But completely ignoring that, might I point out the many, many empires Africa naturally produced, including a few so advanced that racists had to create all kinds of wild theories about White Africans just to explain them? Or the fact that a large part of Africa's current problems were caused by imperialists exploiting it for all its worth, then packing up and leaving, leaving all the problems this behavior causes intact without the inherent "stabilization" power of overwhelming military might? Or the fact that Europe was fully capable of poverty, religious civil wars, and full-blown chaos all on its own (see the Thirty Years War for one of my favorite examples of all three, it involving so many big-name European powers).

In short, get your head out of your ass and into a history book. When some random asshole on the internet can refute just about everything you say, you obviously have nothing worth saying.

4/25/2012 6:07:27 AM


Fundie imperialist.


There is a special type of irony when something like this is said in a place called "Where Liberty Dwells".

I like to call it Ironic Dissonance :D

4/25/2012 6:14:00 AM

Doubting Thomas

Whenever you remove the power structure there will always be several different factions struggling to fill that void, and so civil war is not unusual. That doesn't mean that imperialism is good, though.

4/25/2012 6:21:32 AM


The imperialists put warring tribes in the same country, took as many resources as they could, turned people against each other, and committed terrible atrocities. Yes, they also brought Western medicine, technology, and infrastructure but they caused enormous problems as well. And they didn't bring Western technology to Africa because they were some kind-hearted heroes that just wanted to help those people. No, they wanted Africa's land and resources for their own gain. Things like bringing medicine shows that imperialists weren't Saturday morning cartoon villains but rather people. But to whitewash imperialism as if it's the greatest gift anyone has ever received is either insane or incredibly naive.

4/25/2012 6:27:01 AM


Godwin alert:

I guess the Poles, the French and the Norwegians were just stupid spoilsports when the kind, generous Third Reich Army came to "imperialize" their countries during the thirties.

4/25/2012 6:59:10 AM


Africa is not a country, idiot.

4/25/2012 7:24:44 AM


The Hutu Tutsi war is otherwise known as the genocidal war in Rwanda...there are not separate events! But seeing that you advocate colonialism, theft of national resources and slavery...

And who brought the two competing religions to Nigeria...? Right, British imperialism and Arab imperialism.

4/25/2012 7:51:23 AM


This belongs in Racists Say The Darndest Things, because this is more racist than fundie. (And if you're not sure how it's racist, three words: White Man's Burden.)

4/25/2012 8:01:05 AM

Brendan Rizzo

This ought to go under RSTDT.

But anyway, I don't think Kathy realizes that imperialism was the direct cause of all the suffering in Africa. Before imperialism, there were several advanced (for the time, anyway) societies in Africa. The city of Timbuktu, located in Mali, once had a larger and more complete library than anything in Europe.

And furthermore, the Boers are still there. What, do you think they just left? If they had left, then how would they still be there for white supremacists to exaggerate claims that they are being subjected to a genocide? But then again, it's no wonder that white supremacists love the Boers (though few posting on the Internet actually live in South Africa for some reason). The Boers are the rednecks of the Cape. I have just as much disdain for them as I have for the Bible thumpers of the American South. So you know what they say about birds of a feather.

4/25/2012 8:24:05 AM


Stupid, yes, but Fundie?

4/25/2012 8:26:56 AM


This belongs in RSTDT.

4/25/2012 8:29:10 AM

Actually, this isn't entirely without reason. Having actually lived in a former British colony for some time (none of the African ones mentioned here, I admit) I was told by a number of locals that they wished the country had never taken Independence from the British because they simply weren't up to the job of governing themselves yet. One of the national papers later ran a poll that suggested the majority of their readers would rather return to British rule. This is not the complete picture though, as both the individuals who expressed their views to me and the readership of that particular paper were from the upper-middle classes; whether the common man-in-the-street would be of the same view is an entirely different matter. For what it's worth though, my own opinion is that countries should govern themselves, I'm just saying that it's very easy to criticise a view like this when really the issue is more complex than it seems.

4/25/2012 8:57:48 AM


Big difference between an empire that absorbs and assimilates its subjects, as Rome did, or allows considerable local autonomy, like Persia; and colonial empires that merely exploit an enslaved local population, extracting wealth as European colonialists did in Central/South America and Africa.

@#1396283: That "unreadiness" was largely because the colonial powers deliberately prevented the growth of local institutions, ensuring that they'd always have the excuse that the locals were not quiiiite ready to govern themselves. Destroy indigenous institutions, and take your own technocrats with you when you leave, and that'll happen anywhere.

4/25/2012 9:29:19 AM


Someone needs to tell Kathy64 that the problems affecting Africa today are because of imperialism, not in spite of it. The strife between the Hutus and the Tutsies, to name but one, became aggravated under Belgian rule. Had imperialism been benevolent, they might have tried to defuse the situation instead of contributing to it.

4/25/2012 9:36:01 AM


History fail. Also rstdt

4/25/2012 9:51:43 AM

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