The above is an excerpt from an article in the South African IOL News, because that was the only reporting of the event in English that I could find.
Anyway, I'd like to raise a glass to this sad occasion - my country (Croatia)'s debut on the FSTDT site.
And we have more nasty stuff going on occasionally, of course... it's just that it's never been reported here AFAIK.
5/7/2012 3:31:29 AM
And then they wonder why "those people" don't settle down and live "normal" lives like everyone else.
Also, it's clear the Ustaše lives on, after all.
5/13/2012 5:29:35 AM
God, Vman, I'm sorry. If there's any consolation, Croatia isn't the only country where this is going on. I suppose if I were a Gypsy (Roma still sounds like a long tomato to me), I might rather come to the Western Hemisphere, where most folks have other groups to maltreat.
5/13/2012 5:34:28 AM
At least the government of Croatia thinks this is nuts...
5/13/2012 5:40:10 AM
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
Old Villages seriously need to retire the torch & pitchfork brigades!
5/13/2012 5:54:31 AM
@Reynardine: "Gypsy" is a racial slur, though. I doubt you'd use the N-word, so don't use the G-word.
5/13/2012 6:38:28 AM
5/13/2012 7:08:41 AM
"Gypsy" wasn't a slur until recently, since people I knew admitted to the affiliation. Use and abuse has doubtless tainted the term. The problem with "Roma" is that too many people think it refers to: 1. Romans; 2. Romanians; 3. Long tomatoes.
Those from Iberia sometimes denominate themselves "caló", clearly from the Hindostani "kalú", Dravidian. That word isn't free of taint, either, and as long as the underlying definition isn't free of taint, neither will any name remain so.
5/13/2012 8:31:30 AM
Being a non-land-holding group in Europe has had sad consequences for the Roma for centuries. They were more or less forced into the stereotypical professions most people associate with them, and lack of a way to earn money made them more likely to steal. Having lived in various parts of Europe for 6 years, I can say that the Roma are still widely disliked for begging, pickpocketing, and even pimping their own children. Nothing's going to change until they find better ways to earn a living.
5/13/2012 8:58:43 AM
Landlessness is a large part of it. If the appelation, "caló", indeed derives from "kalú" (Dravidian), the ancestors of these people were dispossessed from their soil in India by Indo-Iranian speaking invaders over three thousand years ago, and have had no homeland since. Such people are always marginalized, as the Jews were, and assimilation is no defense until idenity becomes untraceable. "Gypsy" is a name given them by Europeans who thought they were Egyptian; by modern times, many believed it themselves. As with Jews and Moriscos, they were viewed as heretics. People forced to live as outlaws often become outlaws. The confusian of Roma and Romanian is doubly unfortunate because of the murderous level of prejudice against them in Romania, where the nobles once kept them as chained slaves (even though the average Romanian would never disdain the great composer Dinicu, who came of that stock)
5/13/2012 10:36:07 AM
This sounds like a scene from "The Hunchback of Notre Dame"
5/13/2012 12:34:36 PM
Don't be such a word-Nazi. Gypsy is a perfectly decent word, unlike nigger, which was always derogatory. Just because people often use a word in a bad way, that does not mean the word itself is to blame.
Eastern Europe needs to move on. Unfortunately there are parts that never learned that the Holocaust was an evil thing. Some people in former Yugoslavian states have unfortunately held onto their murderous xenophobia all the way through the Tito years until they had a chance to machine-gun the local minorities.
5/13/2012 12:46:54 PM
Not that I like or approve of xenophobia in any way, but it's kind of refreshing to see that it doesn't just happen in the United States. Sure, we have quite a bit of hatred of people who are different, but it's not just an American thing. Looks like the entire world could use some education.
5/13/2012 2:37:39 PM
Correction: not our debut here after all... there was one quote before about the production of Hitler-themed sugar with anti-Semitic slogans on the packages O_o
5/13/2012 3:06:30 PM
*sigh* 21st Century. You'd think we'd 'all' have gotten over the 'racist dumbfuck' stage by now..
Oh, we still get enough of it here in the UK. Just look up the collection of dumbfucks in National Front, EDL or the BNP.
....Hitler themed sugar?..seriously? O.o
5/13/2012 3:23:19 PM
@ Nicole & Reynardine:
The Gypsy/ Roma thing exists here too. Our word equivalent of 'Gypsies' is 'Cigani' and has come to be regarded as a slur, while 'Romi' (sing.: 'Rom') is the politically correct term.
5/13/2012 3:34:50 PM
"Eastern Europe needs to move on. Unfortunately there are parts that never learned that the Holocaust was an evil thing. Some people in former Yugoslavian states have unfortunately held onto their murderous xenophobia all the way through the Tito years until they had a chance to machine-gun the local minorities."
-> true, though as I said to Colgate in another thread, our Jews generally weren't bothered after WWII (which got most of them murdered). The Ustaše racial laws against Jews were just a consequence of being subordinated to the Germans AFAIK.
But the extermination of Serbs (which was entirely the Ustaše's own initiative!) and Roma was backed by genuine hatred among our extreme nationalists. Most of this Serb-hate was a result of 20 years of political violence and authoritarianism by the Serb ruling elite that dominated pre-WWII Yugoslavia, though some of it (mutual) even predated Yugoslavia.
5/13/2012 3:36:02 PM
As you might imagine, the events of WWII in turn stoked the hatred of Croats among a number of Serbs.
It did help things that both nations had a strong presence in the Partisan movement, where they fought side-by-side and won the war... but the war traumas were too great for many people of both to forget (as many Croat civilians also died... to the fascist Chetnik forces - which were overwhelmingly Serb, and had an extreme Serb nationalist ideology). And as the war ended, the Communist party that led the Partisans got in power, and kept the hate under the surface for ~45 years. But it was still there, and as we know eventually it exploded again.
Also, note that Ustaše and Chetnik extremist ideologies weren't a response to each other, but rather came to power in parallel, with the fall of Yugoslavia to Germany & Italy. And, being on the same Axis side, the two movements ironically never fought except IIRC one local skirmish towards the end of the war. What's more, Chetniks even had treatment in hospitals in the NDH (Ustaše Croatia), and could receive pensions from the NDH state if they died in combat against Partisans!
That's a simplified account of what happened, but it should do :)
5/13/2012 3:37:09 PM
@Danarth - read and weep:
5/13/2012 3:38:43 PM
I am reminded of the episode of the Simpsons where they banned sugar in Springfield.
That aside, it is really messed up to print sugar with pictures of Hitler on it.
5/13/2012 3:43:35 PM
Also folks, there's one more thing I should say about the context of the quote in the OP. You'll notice that the place of the event is Škabrnje (or as we usually call the village, Škabrnja).
That such a thing would happen in this village didn't surprise me, as it's pretty much known as one of the most nationalistic places in Croatia.
The main reason this is the case is a single event from the start of the '90s war in Croatia (known as the Homeland War here).
On 18 Nov 1991, coincidentally the exact same day as the fall of Vukovar, Serb paramilitary and military forces entered Škabrnja and massacred several dozen people, nearly all of them civilians. Those who survived... are understandably rather bitter about the whole thing. It in no way justifies some of them being hateful bigots, but does explain that quy in the quote bashing the Serbs.
It has a wikipedia article you can read if you wish:
5/13/2012 3:52:36 PM
'Not just an American thing' is putting it lightly! Probably most nations, tribes and religions have some enemy they prefer to bash.
I've seen some of what the world has to offer when idiots gather.
Serbs vs Croats vs Bosniaks or Israelis vs Arabs is a sight to behold... quite volatile mixes. But they all pale next to the one comment 'discussion' (if we're generous...) between those crazy kids of the Caucasus - the Armenians and the Azeris.
That, people, was something to remember.
When you have Serbs and Croats, there'll usually be a lot of selective history and opposing sources being shouted over a nice bonfire of trolling.
But Azeris vs Armenians, that was something else. If the above was a verbal fight of bazookas, this is a nuclear exchange. If Serbs & Croats are Cradle of Filth (:P), then Armenians & Azeris are Darkthrone :D
Seriously, it's like half of the people in that thread were criminally insane. I had never seen such a concentration of idiotic national posturing coupled with pure, undiluted hate. I kind of wish I knew where that comment thread was xD
5/13/2012 4:28:53 PM
@Vman, regarding Hitler sugar
Considering the comments here, it's probably best if those aren't made. Almost nobody would get the joke.
And, indeed, one of the few memories I have of my very early youth in Poland is my grandmother warning me to behave or the Gypsies will kidnap me. I wouldn't be surprised if grandmothers there are still saying that, 30 years later. Pretty sad that an entire culture can be literally transformed into a boogeyman, even in this modern world.
5/13/2012 6:58:47 PM
Flah> wouldn't get the joke? Sorry, but what joke? O.O
Do you mean the 'Hitler ate sugar' trope, or am I missing something completely?
5/14/2012 2:33:38 AM
Don't be embarrassed, Vman. You get this sort of nuttiness everywhere.
5/14/2012 5:45:36 AM