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Quote# 87511

Much as it will pain my atheist friends to hear this, the role of reason in the Western world was invented by the Greek, upheld by the Romans, and when those Romans became Christians, Reason was merged, melted and mated to the Christian religion so that one cannot accept Christ without excepting reason, and cannot accept Reason without accepting Christ.

Reason without Christ, if elevated to the sum and final Good of Man, leads to inhuman anger like Marx or inhuman selfishness like Ayn Rand, or inhuman angry selfishness like Dawkins, or inhuman inhumanity like Peter Singer.

John C. Wright, John C. Wright's Journal 70 Comments [5/26/2012 3:15:13 AM]
Fundie Index: 67
Submitted By: David
WTF?! || meh
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Woody

"Reason was merged, melted and mated to the Christian"

So nothing smug or self satisfied in that statement then...

Christians have the monopoly on reason, thanks for letting us know the science community can throw out everything we have learnt in the last 300 years and go back to bronze age book of fairy stories.

5/26/2012 3:19:57 AM

Reynardine

When you said one cannot accept Christ without *excepting* reason, you actually told the truth.

5/26/2012 3:39:07 AM

OhJohnNo

It's nice that you recognize Ayn Rand's "inhuman selfishness", unlike many of our right-wing fundies, but you're still a crackpot.

5/26/2012 3:40:40 AM

Sam

So, you can't accept reason without accepting christ, but first you point out that reason existed in pre-Christian Rome and Greece(and various other places you left out, obviously), and then you give several examples of people you consider to have "reason without christ"

You dumb.

5/26/2012 4:13:55 AM

Raised by Horses

You expect boorishness here, but rarely do you see a post where every word drips with such unwarranted smugness.

Let me untangle and rebuke the argument you're trying to make: (1. The Greeks invented modern logic, which was later adopted by the Romans. (2. Therefore, the beliefs arising in the time of the Romans must be logical. The two statements do not intersect, i.e. this is an obvious non-sequitur, the most common logical error and a mark of a poor thinker.

That took less than two minutes. I do wonder how long it took you to come up with it?

5/26/2012 4:15:31 AM

Canadiest

Two words

Dark Ages

Christianity effectively stalled reason for hundreds of years.

And where the Hell is your reason when you compare the advocate of wealth, Ayn Rand to the advocate of knowledge, Richard Dawkins? Ayn Rand was an Atheist, yes, but only because she had found her new Gods, rich people.

5/26/2012 4:21:10 AM

Paler_Face

So, because the Romans converted to Catholicism, we can't have math without Jeebus?

You comment reeks of wishful thinking.

5/26/2012 4:49:50 AM

emau99

...one cannot accept Christ without excepting reason, and cannot accept Reason without accepting Christ.

Care to explain why? I'm skeptical of your claim, but if you've got a reasonable explanation, I'm all ears.

Take your time.

5/26/2012 4:50:38 AM

D Laurier

So no pain at all then.
Just unsupported opinion that is refuted by observable reality.

5/26/2012 5:08:52 AM

Big Jilm

Nice try, but no.

Reason is the opposite of faith.

Next.

5/26/2012 5:35:44 AM

Robespierre

Dear John, John's gospel and the Fathers of the church wrapped christianity in neoplatonic trappings. Unfortunately, modern Christians still think they are arguing with ancient Greek philosophers. Modern scientists do not rely on reason alone: reason alone requires arbitrary axioms to come to any conclusion (save from tautologies). We use reason to make sense of the evidence of our senses. It works much better, really.

5/26/2012 5:37:18 AM

Tolpuddle Martyr

Inhuman inhumanity? Really?

5/26/2012 6:25:49 AM

Extraintrovert

I love how this simpleton thinks that Reason is some sort of mythical philosophy or even a religion, rather than a method of determining truth and differentiating between fantasy and reality (albeit an inferior one compared to the scientific method, but useful in a pinch).

@Canadiest
Christianity was responsible for no such thing, and indeed many of the teachings and discoveries from previous periods were preserved solely because various churches kept them intact. Granted, they weren't willing to share it with anyone who wasn't a clergyman, but keeping the masses ignorant is a staple of many religions. Furthermore, the very concept of "Dark Ages" was mostly devised during the Renaissance, as they considered a time in which the ancient (i.e. Greek and Roman) teachings were not widespread to be a terrible time in history (which it was, but for mostly unrelated reasons).

Please don't perpetuate such erroneous historical inaccuracies; Christianity has too many fucks up to require fabricating things.

5/26/2012 6:30:09 AM

Horsefeathers

"Much as it will pain my atheist friends to hear this, the role of reason in the Western world was invented by the Greek, upheld by the Romans, and when those Romans became Christians, Reason was merged, melted and mated to the Christian religion so that one cannot accept Christ without excepting reason, and cannot accept Reason without accepting Christ."

How, exactly, you came up with that last bit is something I would love for you to explain.

"Reason without Christ, if elevated to the sum and final Good of Man, leads to inhuman anger like Marx or inhuman selfishness like Ayn Rand, or inhuman angry selfishness like Dawkins, or inhuman inhumanity like Peter Singer."

I'd also like this explained. Putting it in English would be an excellent first step.

5/26/2012 6:42:41 AM

Thinking Allowed

Why is John talking about reason in when his last sentence makes no sense?

5/26/2012 6:43:52 AM

Brendan Rizzo

Then how did the Greeks discover reason without being Christian? Also, Europe has become the only reality-based society in the world. Most Europeans are practically atheists. You lose.

5/26/2012 6:52:39 AM

Selkie

Hey John C. Wrong, reason =/= faith, which is what you Xtians say is the foundation of your cult.

And WTF is inhuman inhumanity? I smell a contradiction.

5/26/2012 6:55:20 AM

Hertzyscowicz

And the award for the most inspired misspelling of the year goes to....

5/26/2012 7:30:34 AM

SurfinSeaOtter

Wan't this around the same time the Muslims were saving algebra?

5/26/2012 7:38:00 AM

sandchigger

So... it was reasonable to kill all the Christians before the Roman empire adopted that as it's official state religion?

5/26/2012 7:56:40 AM

Berny

Which part of the merging of Christianity and reason gave us the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and centuries of religious strife?
You always seem to focus on the "evil atheists" in your baseless diatribes but you guys conveniently forget the "evil Christians."

5/26/2012 8:24:36 AM

Nagol

Not only does your "logic" make no sense, but you were actually right about something, if only by mistake. Saying that one cannot accept Christ without excepting reason is correct.

5/26/2012 8:41:05 AM

Nagol

Sorry, double post.

5/26/2012 8:43:24 AM



Oh yes, many of them were very reasonable when deciding whether to convert or not. They looked at at the incentives being given for converting and reasonably decided that it would be more beneficial for them to be part of this religion. Then, when temples were forcibly being torn down and the situation was made hostile against them by the descendants of those reasonable people, who previously converted, many people again reasonably decided that it would be more beneficial for them to convert.

5/26/2012 8:57:57 AM

Mayhem

The rise of Christianity spelled the end of Reason in the Western world. It would take another 600 years for it to even begin to start up again.

5/26/2012 8:58:17 AM
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