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Quote# 88058

While undoubtedly there were innocent people killed by the Nationalists in Spain, the fact remains the Church hadn't yet become so anti death penalty in the 1930's. Thousands upon thousands of Communists, Socialists and Anarchists ended up dead in Spain because they chose a life of mob violence, torture, desecration and destruction of that which is Holy.

Seamus L, Catholic Answers Forum 27 Comments [6/29/2012 2:54:32 AM]
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6/29/2012 3:34:53 AM

Philbert McAdamia

While undoubtedly there were innocent people killed, ...etc.

So, collateral damage, like when "little g" flooded the planet and killed every living entity, save the immediate family of one old drunken pervert; all in all, a positive thing. You can't blame the crutch, hell, they weren't against the death penalty back then.
Wait a minute -- are they now?

6/29/2012 3:45:32 AM

Reynardine

And that's your answer? Who the fuck asked you a question?

6/29/2012 3:47:30 AM

Matante

If I wanted to defend the Church, I would find a better argument than its support for the Fascists...

6/29/2012 3:59:06 AM

Leighton Buzzard

General Franco was Holy? Holy moly.

6/29/2012 4:39:46 AM

checkmate

@Philbert McAdamia

Wait a minute -- are they now?

Yes, at least officially. The Vatican rejects capital punishment totally, in writing. It's mainly only a portion of the American Catholics, like Rick Santorum, who still think Middle Age barbarism is a good thing.

The church is Spain has two fractions, the archconservative geezers who still live in yesterday and hope for a reincarnation of Franco and the modern, progressive clerics who are very much in touch with reality, work for the good of their parishes, and believe in the modern day European system of values.

6/29/2012 4:42:18 AM

Mister Spak

It's a good thing thee were no atheists in Spain then, because there would have been lots of mob violence, torture, desecration and destruction .

6/29/2012 6:08:27 AM

Doubting Thomas

I notice you're not discussing the Church's support of Nazi Germany. But I guess you don't want to go there.

6/29/2012 6:28:28 AM

D Laurier

And another proud supporter of facism, displays his dishonesty.

Hundreds of thousands of supporters of freedom, ended up dead in Spain because they opposed facism.

6/29/2012 6:34:23 AM



In the 1930s Communists, Socialists and Anarchists died opposing the rise of Fascism in Spain while the Catholic church did nothing at best and actively supported Fascist Nationalists at worst.

And in the end Catholics actually have the audacity to claim moral superiority over these Communists, Socialists and Anarchists?

6/29/2012 6:48:49 AM

Apatheist

Never insult the Spanish anarchists around me. According to Orwell, they had the freest and most egalitarian society he'd ever seen. This was a man who was terrified of government power, it seems only natural that he'd like well run anarchists.

6/29/2012 6:50:18 AM

Brendan Rizzo

Extra extra! The Catholic Church supports fascism! More at eleven.

6/29/2012 7:18:14 AM

Mayhem

This just in. Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

6/29/2012 7:37:06 AM

JSS

"because they chose a life of mob violence"

'Heretics' forks, 'witches' burned at the stake, 'Judas' chairs and what now?

6/29/2012 8:33:43 AM

Berny

Fascism is holy?
I must've been away when they taught that one in my Catholic religion class.
Also, Jesus was a socialist.

6/29/2012 10:44:50 AM

Vman

It is true that some members of said left-wing groups participated in such activities, yes. Sometimes targeting definite innocents, too.

But that's not why the Nationalists killed them en masse... they'd have done that even if the leftists had been a shining light of purity during the Civil War. And as you said, the Nationalists DID kill innocent people... a LOT of them in fact.

Because you see, Franco's Nationalists were very much fascists... with all the ugly things that sort of world view brings.

Edit: The responses on this thread are just a little one-sided... guys & gals (talking to FSTDT here :P), let's not forget that while the fascists overall killed far more people in the Spanish Civil War, various left-wing groups on the republican side (fractured as it was) did their fair share of atrocities. While they were the sort-of-good guys (some factions, at least), they did not exactly fight cleanly.

Let's not lose our objectivity (led by facts) - leave that to the fundies ;)

6/29/2012 3:39:53 PM

farpadokly

Click through to read disgusting justifications for fascism which make me ashamed to be an (albeit lasped) Catholic.

6/29/2012 3:56:55 PM

Fawful has seen God has a vagina on top of his penis

@ Vman:

Thank you, man.

@Apatheist:

He was actually a Trotskyist and had he known more of the political environment of Spain he would have sided with the Stalinists (as described by Orwell himself).

As to Seamus L, the fascists were the ones who chose a lifestile of mob violence, torture and destruction. Actually, the Catholic Church openly sided with Pancho "El Cerillita" [Franco] and most of the nationalists were devout Catholics, clergymen or resented Spaniards who missed the great days of their beloved empire. Also, are you defending the man who was aided by Hitler and Mussolini? The death count is still higher in the right side than on the left side, dumbshit.

6/29/2012 6:37:25 PM

Old Viking

Little known fact: Franco once had a halo, but he discarded it because it clashed with his uniform.

6/29/2012 8:00:27 PM

Brendan Rizzo

@ Fawful:

I think you're misinterpreting Orwell here. He despised the Stalinists; in fact he said that he found out they were no better than fascists when they opened fire on their own allies for having the audacity not to worship Stalin. This is why the Nationalists won that war, because their opponents were mired in sectarian violence.

6/30/2012 6:56:25 AM

Vman

Brendan Rizzo:
"Extra extra! The Catholic Church supports fascism! More at eleven."


Oh god, don't remind me.
The Catholic Church in Croatia is absolutely atrocious in that regard. Even now they keep railing on and on at the top of their lungs about the HORRORS of communism and how it was the darkest, DARKEST thing to happen to Croatia and the world ever. Sure, the commies weren't very nice to them, but the Church blows it ridiculously out of proportion. Oh, and the commies aren't gone, no sir! They're still everywhere, conspiring to keep good Croats and Catholics down. They (the priesthood) even believe that the old communist secret services still exist and do these things.

The above is not an exaggeration. This is what the Catholic clergy in Croatia actually professes to believe. Seriously, I shit you not. They said it on record, many times.

Oh, and since the Church is so concerned about communist human rights abuses, you'd expect them to scream at the top of their lungs about the crimes committed under fascism, right?
But no. All in all, they said nary a whisper about the atrocities of the Nazis and the Ustaše. It basically boils down to a couple of shy condemnations admitting that, yes, these regimes "were a bad thing" (not their direct words, rather my summation of the strength of them). Meanwhile, Ante Pavelic (the Croatian clone of Hitler, in every way that matters) still gets a mass 'for his soul'* once a year by a local priest, with no condemnation whatsoever by said priest's superiors. Of course, 'for his soul' shouldn't be taken to mean that they're praying for him because he has sinned like few people ever to walk the Earth... no, they're praying in his glory. This is the moment when we should remember that these people claim to be followers of Jesus Christ and his teachings.

* (which makes the critical mistake of assuming he had one, even if you believe in the existence of souls. Pavelic was every bit the complete monster that dear ol' Adolf was.)

{continued}

6/30/2012 2:37:35 PM

Vman

{continuation from previous post}

Oh, and every supposed or confirmed mass grave of victims of the WWII Partisans (whoever these victims may be and whatever they may have did, as long as they were Croat, Catholic and not Partisans) is very regularly visited by delegations of the highest ranks of clergy.
On the other hand, the memorial at the site of the Jasenovac concentration camp (largest in Croatia; about 70,000 people murdered - mostly Serbs and Jews, though also Roma, Croats and others) had never been visited by a single Catholic priest until very recently. Since a few years ago, one local priest now actually shows up for the memorial day once a year. Our main church leader (archbishop Bozanic) actually visited once IIRC - and only once - and it wasn't on the memorial day (God forbid he comes when there are a few old soldiers present who fought on the good side!).

/RANT :O

So you see Brendan, you are not alone. This crap very much happens in other countries too, only the rest of us here at FSTDT don't despair quite so loudly ;P

P.S. does anyone know if there's an image of Franco as a knight of faith (sword, armor and all, even a halo maybe?) floating around the interwebs? I remember seeing that in a history textbook as an example of Spanish nationalist propaganda. I've wanted to use it once or twice on a fitting occasion here on FSTDT, but my search on google images has been fruitless :(

6/30/2012 2:38:06 PM

Vman

Fawful:
"He was actually a Trotskyist and had he known more of the political environment of Spain he would have sided with the Stalinists (as described by Orwell himself)."


He would have done so... even though he was a Trotskyist... and if he knew more about the political environment in Spain?!

But... why? :O
It seems contradictory on so many levels... and a bit sad.

6/30/2012 2:44:07 PM

Fawful has seen God has a vagina on top of his penis

@Brendan & Vman:

I saw that on Wikipedia (I know, just work with me here). The source is George Orwell's Notes on the Spanish Militias, page 77. London: Everyman’s Library, 2002. Here, Orwell writes that had he known the political situation in Spain better, he'd have joined in the CNT militias. Sorry, my bad. I had thought the CNT was a Stalinist militia.


7/24/2012 12:35:06 PM

Fawful has seen God has a vagina on top of his penis

@Vman:

Also, is this the pic you were looking for? I searched for "Franco cruzado".


7/25/2012 9:13:33 AM
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