By the way, atheists earnestly insist: no one has been killed "in the name of atheism". True enough. Atheism doesn't ask anyone to do anything. However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder; from that point, raw human nature takes over. This is similar to arguing that blowing up a dam would not be murder. The dam breaking does no harm. It's all that water behind the dam
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"However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder; from that point, raw human nature takes over."
Yes, because religion has done such an amazing job at holding the barriers that prevent murder. No one has ever fought a war or killed anyone in the name of religion.
The Torah doesn't exactly have very strict barriers against murder, what with the whole "kill everyone who's gay, or gathers sticks on the sabbath, or who looks at you a bit funny".
Raw human nature takes over?? You don't have a penal code in the US? Well, since you HAVE one, fyi, please cogitate a litte where that might have come from. Certainly not from a god.
"However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder; from that point, raw human nature takes over."
Citation seriously ... oh, what's the point.
Calvinists love to say that human nature is depraved, that without God keeping us in line we'd go on a self-destructive orgy of rape, vandalism, murder, and dancing. Human nature isn't "good", exactly, but between our social instincts, conditioning, and social structures like police, *most* people keep in line.
On the other hand, look at all the preachers, priests, rabbis, and other religious who get caught with their hand in the till, their pants around their ankles, and/or their hands and other organs on the children who trust them. How does their belief in God restrain them?
"It's all the water behind the damn...."
So God didn't kill everyone but Noah & family, all he did was make it rain it was the water that killed caused genocide.
Falls under the fundie golden rule of its not murder when God does it.
You seem to be the slightest bit confused Rabbi, the whole no barriers thing seems to be working out rather well for us. Understandable really, considering your laws don't just mandate heinous atrocities with zero provocation but also bar adherents from acts of nobility. How have your barriers helped humanity in recent years? Have they ever? You don't seem to give human nature enough credit, because its done much more for us, and for me, than your god.
" The dam breaking does no harm. It's all that water behind the dam which is killing thousands of people and the bomber had nothing to do with that! Of course, such a ridiculous argument would not hold water in any courtroom."
Kinda like the argument that the ancient Hebrews didn't murder a bunch of innocent people, that was all justified killing because God demanded it.
"By the way, atheists earnestly insist: no one has been killed "in the name of atheism". True enough. Atheism doesn't ask anyone to do anything. However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder; from that point, raw human nature takes over."
I - an Atheist - wouldn't like to be killed/harmed, nor want my property stolen/damaged, so why should I want to do the same to anyone else?
Next question.
...but there are supposedly 'barriers' in Christian behaviour which prevents raw human nature taking over.
...oh wait.
"However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder; from that point, raw human nature takes over."
"The atheist preserves his reason, which checks his propensity to mischief, while the fanatic is under the influence of a madness which is constantly urging him on."
- Voltaire
However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder;
Yeah? Atheism changes the law and makes jail time not apply anymore? Atheism removes the public scorn you get for being a murderer? Atheism suddenly makes the victim's family not cry or hate you? Atheism does all of those things? And how effective has Judaism been at preventing killing? I don't know, let's ask the Caananites and the Ammonites, or for a more modern example let's ask the Palestinians.
A lot of humans - maybe not the majority, but certainly an appreciable minority - will at least briefly contemplate murdering another human being at some point in their lives. A vanishingly small percentage of that demographic actually act on these contemplations. Do you know what stops them?
It sure as hell ain't religion, buddy, because what with the Crusades, the various jihads, the Spanish Inquisition, the witch-burnings and the current Israeli (yeah buddy, that's Jews doing that) ethnic cleansing operations in Palestine, religion has a fucking awful track record in stopping murder.
What actually stops human-on-human violence is... you guessed it, raw human nature. Humans actually have very strong subconscious inhibitions against hurting and killing one another. Why do you think there's so much mental conditioning in military training? It's to overcome that precise mental block.
I'm an atheist, and while I have on occasion considered lashing out at people who I'm upset with, I've never actually done it. It certainly wasn't fear of God or the gods that stopped me - it was human nature.
"raw human nature takes over"
And, if you're not a sociopath, that's not a problem at all.
You obviously don't understand secular humanism. Also, being an atheist doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want without any consequences. We still have societal laws, rules, and mores to follow.
"By the way, atheists earnestly insist: no one has been killed 'in the name of atheism'. True enough. Atheism doesn't ask anyone to do anything. However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder; from that point, raw human nature takes over."
Odd. I always thought that being able to do any damn thing you wanted--up to and including murder--and then being able to ask your chosen deity for "forgiveness" to make it all better would have the exact same fucking effect .
"This is similar to arguing that blowing up a dam would not be murder. The dam breaking does no harm. It's all that water behind the dam which is killing thousands of people and the bomber had nothing to do with that! Of course, such a ridiculous argument would not hold water in any courtroom."
The method of murder is irrelevant. It's the act/intent itself that matters, jackass.
That's the most patently ridiculous thing I've seen in a while. "Removes barriers?" Excuse me? Have you not heard of empathy or the conscience? Oh, and atheists have and extremely low prison rate, far less that the religious in proportion to our numbers. So I guess that proves you're completely wrong.
"However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder..."
Uh, no. Us atheists rely on good sense, empathy and clear reasoning to show us that murder is a poor idea. Patently those are qualities unfamiliar to you.
Atheism makes you immoral No. 545,554,312,731,467,646,866,444,464,873,667,976,595,613,001,468,664,965,497,984,894,549,858,765,491
It's still utter BS.
"atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder"
It deeply disturbs me when people very obviously do not believe in the existence of empathy or respect for the law. It's not even a lack of empathy--the only way you can legitimately support this argument is if you believe that no one cares about other people at all.
If religion is so red hot at keeping "raw human nature" at bay, why do we need prisons, and a law library, and a judicial system? We tried it your way, and despite your best efforts, you failed. Why is that exactly?
There have always been thieves, and they sometimes extort bribes from brothels in their official capacity. If religious zealots ever succeeded in quashing "sin", what would they rail against in order to generate income? Loud chewing?
Edit: @ The_L:
You have just defined the shiny mirror of the narcissist, or what Dawkins defines as a Solipsist.
I don't know about you, jewish philosopher, but I have a little thing called a conscience. It tends to get in the way of my doing mean, cruel things to other people.
By the way, atheists earnestly insist: no one has been killed "in the name of atheism". True enough. Atheism doesn't ask anyone to do anything.
But religion does - and with thousands of different religions telling people to do different things, they end up killing each other, each believing they have God's permission. "Atheism doesn't ask anyone to do anything"? How is that worse than religion actively encouraging people to kill each other?
@ NonProphet
(like the name btw)
@Brendan Rizzo:
Do we know if he's American? Or is this your reverse-nationalism bigotry rearing its ugly head again?
Exactly. It does not matter if this tard is an American or not - it is just wrong, no matter the nationality.
I'd be more impressed with this guys "Philosophy" if he based some of it on the reality of religion being both the bomb and the water behind the bridge.
Secular societies have prospered by containing religions ambitions, damming them or diverting their flow.
However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder; from that point, raw human nature takes over.
I sincerely doubt that it's only your belief in a god that prevents you from committing murder. In fact, I can prove it using your own Torah:
If a mere belief in God prevents people from committing murder, then surely, wouldn't a direct knowledge of that god be stronger? If so, consider Cain in Genesis. He knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that your god existed. God spoke directly to him, warning him about losing his temper. And yet Cain had no difficulty in killing his brother. Therefore, it cannot be a belief in a god which prevents people from killing each other.
In fact, it's no doubt possible to point to thousands, if not millions of examples of humans who committed immoral acts, all the while claiming to believe in God (heck, just in the Torah alone, there's Cain, Saul and David). Yet somehow, this belief didn't prevent them from doing something immoral. If a belief in God doesn't prevent immoral behavior, how can a non-belief in the same God be said to cause immoral behavior?
Actually, religion has removed barriers in mass murder, since according to Hitler, he was simply doing his christian duty.
It's as plain as day, atheism explains nothing. If evolution made us, then who made evolution?
Go ahead and cry out to your magic evolution fairy. Will it answer you? Doesn't that prove it's a fraud, a myth?
Worms cannot turn into people.
EVOLUTION IS DEAD!
When will members of this site, std.com, realize that?
So tell me, syphilitic morons of std.com, why should I believe in the magic evolution fairy? Why not the FSM?
ROTFLMAO!!!
I love this site. What a hoot!
@Nagol #1422140
@JP #1422185
Atheism doesn't remove any barriers, it's just a lack of belief in gods.
We still believe in follow the law, and treating other people with kindness and respect, regardless of their gender, age, sexual orientation or skin-tone.
"However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder"
What stopped Joshua or Moses?
"However atheism removes all barriers which would prevent murder"
No it doesn't, because those laws are created and enforced by society and history shows laws against theft, murder and other crimes of society have been with us far longer than the Abrahamic religions.
Under the Biblical tenants you would be subjects of dictator kings, not free and not protected against cruel masters. Nothing in the Biblical world allows for free men or rights and rights for women and children at all. We are a much better society than your garbage fables would allow for.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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