Quote# 88377

The skeptic might say, "But God knows for a fact who will be bad and good. Why allow the people going to hell to be born in the first place?" But, if this is the case and if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell. You see, Jesus is the only way to be forgiven of our sins. His sacrifice on the cross was necessary in order to make it possible for us to be saved because everyone, "good" and "bad" has sinned. If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross. If that never happened, then we wouldn't be saved from our sins because Jesus would never have been unjustly condemned and His sacrifice would never have happened.

Matt Slick, CARM 83 Comments [7/16/2012 2:43:29 PM]
Fundie Index: 76
Submitted By: Tony

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Typical explanation from a religion that uses a torture device as its symbol.

Feel that Christian love!

7/16/2012 2:55:03 PM

Filin De Blanc

I still haven't figured out why the hell it was necessary for Jesus to die in the first place. Couldn't God have just gone "okay, you're saved from your sins now" without the whole "agonizing death of his son" thing?

7/16/2012 2:57:27 PM


That may be the most pathetic argument ever by a fundie.

7/16/2012 2:58:05 PM

Deus ex Populo

My head hurts from trying to make sense of this shit. Just admit you don't have an answer and be done with it.

7/16/2012 2:59:39 PM


If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross.

Yeah, but then again Eve wouldn't have obeyed the serpent and we wouldn't have been in this perdicament in the first place.

Either that or it's all just a crock of bullshit.

I tilt heavily towards the latter.

7/16/2012 3:02:36 PM

Jedi Knight

That's one o f the stupidest attempts to rationalize evil I've ever heard. I could debunk it, if I cared enough.

7/16/2012 3:09:26 PM


Sort of ok unless you're one of the 'little people' that is doomed for eternity to make your system work.

And it's atheism that devalues human life....

7/16/2012 3:10:25 PM


Look, dude, you can contort it as much as you like, if your God is omnipotent, then it can do WHATEVER THE HELL IT WANTS. If it doesn't want people to go to hell, they don't go to hell.

7/16/2012 3:11:37 PM


How has such a fucked up religion survived for so long?

7/16/2012 3:16:49 PM


Or maybe- just maybe- the idea (of a religion that punishes one for existing unless one claps one's hands and believes in the Magical Scapegoat) is irredeemably (HA!) flawed to begin with.

7/16/2012 3:18:25 PM


> if God arranged it that no "bad" people were born, then we would all go to hell.

Okkaaaayyy. If true, that's obviously screwed up, and there can't be any good rationale for that.

> If there were no "bad" people born, then there wouldn't be any "bad" people around who would have sent Jesus to the cross.

That's okay, because if Jesus hadn't been crucified (as stories go), we wouldn't have Christianity and Christian doctrine either.

The omnipotent God, now out of ideas how to tell humanity how to get saved, would be forced to condemn everyone to hell by pure surprise.

This is incredibly loving and plausible. NOT.

7/16/2012 3:20:37 PM


God looking in the mirror:

"Why can't I just snap my fingers and everybody's saved?"

"Because you have to follow the rules."

"Says who?"

"Says you."


"Yes, you."



"J-E-S-U-S! Come over here. Ever heard of this place called Bethlehem? Wanna go there?"

7/16/2012 3:23:33 PM


A skeptic would be more likely to say "It's all made up and you fell for it".

7/16/2012 4:04:33 PM


This logic is so circular it's chasing its own tail.

7/16/2012 4:07:46 PM


Fundie Beliefs #9: Christ’s Redemption

One day, God changed His mind about the Magic Fruit curse (see Gen. 3) and said "OK, I guess I’ll relent and remove my curse. I know what: I’ll send down My son – who’s really Me in disguise – and let them torture Me to death! That’ll pay Me for removing the Magic Fruit curse, which was put on them by Me in the first place."

OK, I guess put like that, this doesn’t make a lot of sense, since if someone has a grudge against you, he’s not likely to demand that you nail his son (who's really himself) to a cross to earn his forgiveness. But somehow that made sense to God, except that there’s this one additional condition: you have to communicate telepathically to God that you believe the guy who was nailed up was His Son, that you're "born again" and accept the Son as your personal saviour*, even if God gives you cancer, wipes out your town with a tornado or makes you marry a fat, ugly whiner and work your whole life for $11.00 an hour at the Walmart warehouse. If you do, you may have a crappy life, but you’re guaranteed a fine spot in heaven after you die. You can kill, rape or do almost anything else except one of the following:

• support abortion rights or gay marriage,
• believe in evolution or global warming,
• call for stronger gun laws,
• support universal health care or
• vote for a Democrat;

but otherwise as long as you believe in Jesus you’ll be among "the saved" and go to heaven. Then you can watch and snicker at all those Chardonnay-sipping New York liberals who, during life, made ten times as much money as you and had sex with better-looking partners, as they weep and gnash their teeth in the Lake O' Fire ®.

* Not "savior" – that has the satanic six letters instead of the godly seven. See "The Bible"

7/16/2012 4:10:13 PM


WTF did he just say?

I think he just said if everyone was "good," then no one would have been "bad" enough to crucify Jesus and therefore since even the "good" people have sinned, everyone would be condemned.

Oh, how about if Jesus came up with a less gory way to forgive everyone like two Hail Marys and a Lord's Prayer? Works for the Catholics.

7/16/2012 4:27:17 PM


Or.. the entire system is arbitrary to begin with.

7/16/2012 4:37:05 PM

Creedence Leonore Gielgud

God sacrificed himself, to himself in order to forgive people for their ancestors committing the ultimate sin of attaining knowledge, thus bettering themselves, which he fucking hates.

Odin sacrificed himself to himself to gain knowledge, specifically writing, which he shared with humanity. He also sacrificed one of his eyes on another occasion for similar reasons.

this also:

7/16/2012 4:49:18 PM


We don't need to be.

7/16/2012 4:52:39 PM


Makes me sad that someone as obviously intelligent as Matt Slick would waste it on something as worthless as apologetics.

7/16/2012 5:03:22 PM


Yes, all well and good. But where does logic come in? There is none that I can detect.

7/16/2012 5:03:55 PM


Shame on you all for doubting God's supreme sacrifice!


7/16/2012 5:47:18 PM


There was a time when I was somewhat of an amateur christian apologist. Not that I wrote books or articles or anything, but I actually contemplated questions like these and came up with half-assed answers like this.

I stopped being a christian when I realized how much I was wasting my intellect.

7/16/2012 5:51:57 PM

"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities" - Voltaire

7/16/2012 6:47:19 PM


I knew that Matt Slick was a self-absorbed (surprised he didn't put himself up there with Jesus), arrogant idiot*. Now I have a better idea of the degree of idiocy.

*Who happens to head a cult/hate group.

7/16/2012 6:58:30 PM

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