Nature NEVER forms spiritous liquors. The fruit (grape) may rot and turn sour but it takes ART to convert juice to alcohol. The indispensable conditions for vinous fermentation are exact proportions of sugar, yeast or gluten and water with air temperature between 50 and 75 degrees. Chemical science forbids vinous fermentation when heat exceeds 75 degrees and assures the acetous (vinegar). Since the Middle East is well above that even at night most of the year, something had to be done to preserve the juice (wine) for the year, or else it would all turn to vinegar! To assume it was all turned to alcoholic wine is a ridiculous assertion and flies in the face of historical fact. Josephus, famous Jewish historian declares that he has seen provisions at the Jewish fortress Massada including grapes and fruits, kept fresh to last for 100 years!!!! Pliny the Roman historian confirms this. Don't let anyone tell you that grapes have to be kept by making alcoholic wine so they can last the year!!
So we see that the portrayal that grape juice was only preserved by fermentation is utterly false. Unfermented wine was the most common wine in biblical times. It was not what we know as wine today which is always alcoholic. You cannot defend wine drinking today on the basis of biblical times because the two are totally different.
Argument from the Passover
Some will still say that Jesus Christ indeed drank alcoholic wine and we know this by the passover (which was the last supper - Mark 14:14-17
). There is a difference of seven months grapes between the harvest and passover. They will say “they didn't have refrigerators, so to keep the grapes from souring, they were fermented”. As we have shown above, the seven month time span would not have been a problem due to the multitude of frequently used preservation methods, all of which easier than fermentation, available to the people at that time.
53 comments
As we have shown above, the seven month time span would not have been a problem due to the multitude of frequently used preservation methods, all of which easier than fermentation, available to the people at that time.
Name one.
More "Jesus turned water into grape juice" crap from the fundie Christians who think that one drop of alcohol will send you to hell forever.
What, you don't think they could have found a cool place somewhere to store the jugs of juice that would allow good fermentation?
BTW, ideal fermentation takes place between 50 and 75 degrees, depending on the yeast. That doesn't mean that fermentation won't take place at temperatures warmer than 75 degrees. It just means the alcohol produced will be harsher.
How do I know? I make my own wine.
The indispensable conditions for vinous fermentation are exact proportions of sugar, yeast or gluten and water with air temperature between 50 and 75 degrees. Chemical science forbids vinous fermentation when heat exceeds 75 degrees and assures the acetous (vinegar). Since the Middle East is well above that even at night most of the year,
What about wine cellars? If the goat fuckers didn't have a cave, how long did they have to wait for a scientist to invent a shovel?
Chemical science forbids vinous fermentation when heat exceeds 75 degrees and assures the acetous (vinegar). Since the Middle East is well above that even at night most of the year
Even underground? There's a reason people invented the wine CELLAR.
Some will still say that Jesus Christ indeed drank alcoholic wine and we know this by the passover
He probably did. Alcohol is sterile (plus it's alcohol) so people of the day, even Jesus, drank it. And you bending over backwards to deny that is hilarious.
Oh, yeah, that miracle at Cana was awesome. Dude turned water into grape juice, and the guests at the wedding all said, "Jesus, you cheap bastard, give us some booze!"
Did you know there is a thriving Israeli wine industry? They don't, funnily enough, store the barrels or the bottled stuff in refrigerators, and while the wine isn't all that great, to be honest, it's most certainly not vinegar.
Cite needed on the Josephus and Pliny quotes.
Huh, tell that to the oranges and melons that regularly turn alcoholic if I leave them out too long. (I don't like my fruit refrigerated, even though they last longer, they don't taste as good.)
Pineapple is rather pleasant when it's just starting to ferment.
"Nature NEVER forms spiritous liquors. The fruit (grape) may rot and turn sour but it takes ART to convert juice to alcohol."
Elephants - as well as various other animals - eat fruit. It fermemts in their stomachs. Result: They get drunk .
Now, if they didn't like the experience, they'd learn from the previous instance, and never touch fruit again (just as certain predators try to eat certain other animals - especially insects/reptiles/amphibians - that have venomous/poisonous skins/insides; they find such to be foul, and thus vomit such out, put two & two together and get the answer 'Don't touch prey with bright colours again'.
So riddle me this, Willie: why do those elephants etc continue to eat fruit, if the resulting after-effects aren't natural ?
You cannot defend the Temperance Movement, via your 'interpretation' of the Bible. If it says 'Wine', then it means Wine. Just ask any Anthropologist/Archaeologist.
And even before wine, there was Beer. Beer was so vital to ancient civilisations, it was used as a currency in Sumeria.
You people aren't happy unless you're sucking the joy out of everything, are you?
If wine in biblical times was non-alcoholic, why did the killjoy founder of your church (Paul, I'm talking about, not Jesus) declare that it was better to get DRUNK on the holy spirit than on wine? You can't get drunk on non-alcoholic wine.
This video, showing animals getting drunk on naturally fermented fruit i.e. alcohol, completely refutes your whole premise.
Get yourself an education before you spout lies to everyone.
although the wine made back then cannot compare to the wine of today in terms of taste, it was actually stronger (iirc) than that of today (at about 18-20° instead of the standard red at 12-14°), so they watered it down to purify the water. that said, non-alcoholic wine is just grape juice. wine is de facto alcoholic... and alcohol has saved humanity for the past 4000 years. idiot
Nature NEVER forms spiritous liquors. The fruit (grape) may rot and turn sour but it takes ART to convert juice to alcohol.
Tell that to the squirrels and birds who get intoxicated after eating fermented berries (berries that are still on the vine, by the way).
Dunce.
Jesus drank wine, made wine and sanctified it for ritual. Unfermented wine is fruit juice, nothing more, and certainly not wine. The bible specifically uses the word WINE, therefore it can be understood that the beverage in question was fermented.
You are either poorly informed or in denial. Either way, get over yourself.
The Bible is literally true, word for word, and only a liberal false Christian would claim that any part of it is up to interpretation. The Bible is the Word of God and contains no errors.
Except for all the parts about drinking wine, of course. They meant to write "grape juice". Oops!
@KittyKaboom:
The bible specifically uses the word WINE, therefore it can be understood that the beverage in question was fermented.
I had a fundie friend try to explain to me that there were two different definitions of "wine" in the bible, one meant "strong drink," or fermented, alcoholic wine, while the other definition mean "fruit of the vine," or grape juice. For some reason, you're only allowed to use the second definition of wine when talking about the wedding at Cana story.
I told him this was bunk because in the story they said that usually they bring out the best wine first, and later the lesser vintages. Reason being because you'll notice the better wine when you're sober and after you've gotten a bit drunk you won't care about drinking the lesser wine. If they were just drinking grape juice, it wouldn't matter.
"Unfermented wine was the most common wine in biblical times."
Odd that this rare, uncommon alcoholic wine is what's clearly being referenced in most Biblical verses discussing wine. Noah gets drunk on wine, Samson gets drunk on wine, multiple verses in Proverbs and Leviticus warn against overindulgence in wine because it gets you drunk... Clearly, this guy is worse at Biblical exegesis than he is at throwing a decent party.
So when Noah made wine, drank the wine, got drunk, and cursed his sons for viewing his drunked nakedness, that never happened, right?
no to the fermented fruit thing. Fruits will ferment and form alcohol, thus providing a drunk for the animals.
Unfermented wine is grape juice. I am not aware of any preservative method in biblical times.
Grapes can turn to wine right on the vine. I've tasted them myself. There was a very small unattended vineyard on the street in my neighborhood when I was a kid. We always ate the grapes (Concord) and often found fermented ones.
The skin has plenty of natural yeast and the pulp develops plenty of sugar. No problem.
All this Southern Baptist "Jesus drank grape juice" crap is sickning. I've be hearing it for decades. Pure crap.
Natural orange juice and grape juice at warm temperatures often have so much alcohol in them that dry alcoholics can't drink them without risking relapse. Lots of dry alcoholics even take their own vinegar with them to restaurants.
If Will Hoyt want's to do some research, he should do a six month pilgrimage to the "Holy Land" and test his theory. But I doubt he's really interested in the truth. Jesus is the way the WASPs want him to be.
WASP should be OWASPR these days ("Obese White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Republican").
Having worked on the wine harvest in the south of France, I can say:
Grapes have a bloom of yeast on them. They start fermenting as soon as you crush them, to the extent that you have to be very careful in fermenting sheds because of the CO2 and ethanol fumes.
Making unfermented grape juice requires technology that the Israelites did not have.
Oh, I see what happened! Little Willy doesn't like that the grown-up Bible doesn't mesh with the baby Bible his Mommy read to him. So he just plays make-believe until everything is sunshine, rainbows and Welch's grape juice! It's too good to gulp! (TM)
First, you have quite handily demonstrated you know nothing about the realities of ancient history.
Secondly, you have also demonstrated you know nothing of oenology.
The way my great-grandfather made his wine in the southwestern desert was in buildings made of adobe brick. I'll take fundie moron hints for $100, Alex! "Where it stays +/- 70º F year round."
Words fail me.
Will, when your mommy told you that you were s-m-a-r-t, she was trying to shield you from the truth.
Now be a good boy and do what the nice doctors tell you, take your meds and someday you may be able to get your job back cleaning public toilets. If you are a really good boy, this time they will give you a brush. Woot!
I come from vintners on both sides of the family, have put down a few gallons - in Florida! - and by your cogency, I'd say you've been drinking!
P.S. Quite a few shiners still (!) operate around here, too.
Fermented at Florida summer temperature, wine solerizes; that is, it becomes sherry-like or madeira-like. I knew a formidable old Belorussian down in Miami three or four decades ago who made an equally formidable mango sherry.
I'd point out that even a harsh wine blunts the reality of poorish food.
You pretend it's roast chicken, and it's sure to taste fine
With lots of vino, vino, vino, with plenty of good wine
-from old Spanish song, "Eggplants"
um no
alcohol pretty easy to make
so easy, nature provides enough to get animals in the wild a wee bit tipsy
One cause of blind staggers in horses was fermented silage. And in winter, in Florida, we have to deal with drunk robins, who have loaded up on fermented hawthorn, firethorn, or loquat fruit.
Perhaps you would like to explain how Noah was naked, unconscious, and pissed, (in both the irrationally angry and falling-down sense) when Ham went to see him in his tent (flood myth) if the wine he was explicitly stated to be getting drunk on was non-alcoholic?
Curiously enough, the only argument that could possibly persuade me that there was a god who did love us, is that grapes contain exactly the right balance of sugar and tannin and attract yeast to turn into wine.
Do you want to go to heaven and drink grape juice for the rest of eternity?
'The indispensable conditions for vinous fermentation are exact proportions of sugar, yeast or gluten and water with air temperature between 50 and 75 degrees.'
Gluten is found in grains such as barley and wheat. It's what gives cake and bread a slightly chewy texture. It in no way causes fermentation. Mixing gluten with sugar and water would probably create some sort of ineffective and sticky wallpaper paste. Just from this very elementary error I would say you have no idea what you're talking about.
You cannot defend wine drinking today on the basis of biblical times because the two are totally different.
I don't need to defend my enjoyment of this bottle of wine, just because some santimonious dickhead says I should.
Oh, and you're wrong about natural alcohol too. Prick.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
To post a comment, you'll need to Sign in or Register . Making an account also allows you to claim credit for submitting quotes, and to vote on quotes and comments. You don't even need to give us your email address.