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whatever

@J. James
"Sure, we should believe you because EVERYONE knows that anecdotal evidence with a side of confirmation bias and cognitive bias is the STRONGEST form of evidence.

All who disbelieve are close-minded!"

I never said I wanted you to believe me, I was just telling the truth as I see it. It is immensely unimportant to me whether you believe as I do or not, but I see no reason not to put my views forward.

In addition, I may state that ridicule is the preserve of the insecure.

As for "anecdotal evidence with a side of confirmation bias and cognitive bias"... well I wondered when the term "anecdotal evidence" would crop up. As with all psychic or spiritual work, experiences are subjective and often not understood at the time they occur. Trying to present them to others is a thankless task. One day at work I saw a helicopter crash. I thought it was just my imagination so I discounted it. However the image was quite clear and I saw the field on a slope, the trees around the edge, and the helicopter crash near a corner of the field. Then on BBC News that night I saw the exact same crash with the same background. People died in that accident. It's not something I brag about seeing.

Please do not accept my anecdotal evidence, Mr. James. You wouldn't be true to yourself if you didn't just laugh scornfully.

whatever

@Spuki Kitty
Whew! There is balance among the FSTDT community!

"To lump 'whatever', myself & others...spiritual/theistic people who still believe in science, logic, reason & hate these fundies & bigots as much as you...in the same category as those deranged fundie zealots is stupid."

And at this time I was lumping all the hard-core atheists in with the fundies! Perhaps that was naughty too... but there does seem to be a parallel in behaviour.

Perhaps my use of the word "magic" was misguided, as the term is ambiguous and imprecise to say the least. There is a massive difference between someone in a pointy hat waving a magic wand and a hardened occult practitioner like Aleister Crowley.

Yes SpukiKitty, I agree we should be discussing the wonderfully-named Otis the Sweaty! I hope he presents us with a decent trifecta soon!

SpukiKitty

You're very welcome, 'whatever'!

Now, back to The Abomination Of Persperation!

Raised by Horses

Everyone, calm down.

Whatever, you can believe what you want and practice what you wish, but you yourself know that the argument from personal experience is not a sufficient condition for anyone else to believe you. We all know who bears the burden of proof when it comes to extraordinary claims.

That said, this infighting isn't getting us anywhere. I motion that we put it past us for the time being.

whatever

Something more worthy of FSTDT though: Don't you think the name "Otis the Sweaty" is a bit poe-like? I mean it seems like a redneck parody. I suggest we watch for this person and see what ridiculous stuff he comes out with next.

J. James

"In addition, I may state that ridicule is the preserve of the insecure."

Uh, no, believing in magic is the preserve of the insecure. I don't even believe in God. Why on earth would magic, easily the lowest-hanging fruit on the BS tree, be threatening to me?

"well I wondered when the term "anecdotal evidence" would crop up. As with all psychic or spiritual work, experiences are subjective and often not understood at the time they occur. Trying to present them to others is a thankless task. One day at work I saw a helicopter crash. I thought it was just my imagination so I discounted it. However the image was quite clear and I saw the field on a slope, the trees around the edge, and the helicopter crash near a corner of the field. Then on BBC News that night I saw the exact same crash with the same background. People died in that accident. It's not something I brag about seeing."

Gee wiz, you were wearily anticipating when the term "anecdotal evidence" would crop up, then you go and list an anecdote for evidence...?

Let me put one thing straight: the human mind is not a camcorder. It is not an infallible real-time data recorder. It is subjective, self-editing, forgetful, biased, and a liar. There is nothing we could do about that, except be cognizant of our own failings and compensate for them... By using the scientific method.

"Please do not accept my anecdotal evidence, Mr. James. You wouldn't be true to yourself if you didn't just laugh scornfully."

Har har. If you didn't want me to accept your highly impressive anecdotal evidence, then do not provide anecdotal evidence, provide REAL evidence.

I won't be holding my breath.

J. James

@SpikiKitty
"To the rest of you guys, you're being a bunch of bullies. Knock it off! I know you don't believe that stuff & that's fine but must you be dickweeds about it?"

I typically respect your imput, SpikiKitty, but I think you're wrong. We are all mature here, and if your belief cannot survive the court of debate, you should jettison it like a hot potato. As for being dickweeds and bullies, well, there's no accounting for taste. My patience for the supernatural is next to nil. But if you would like me to be more civil, here goes. Just don't expect me to be obsequious or deferential to beliefs that do not deserve that kind of fawning treatment.

"To lump 'whatever', myself & others...spiritual/theistic people who still believe in science, logic, reason & hate these fundies & bigots as much as you...in the same category as those deranged fundie zealots is stupid."

I agree. You're all far and away better. But only when it comes to believing in science and logic and progressiveness and whatnot. The only difference between you and a fundy when it comes to believing in the supernatural, though, is what you choose to do with that belief. You took the high road, they took the low road, but you both started from the same place.

"Is 'whatever' calling for Holy War? Is 'whatever' calling for suppressing science or comprehensive sex ed? Is 'whatever' trying to outlaw birth control or abortion? Is 'whatever' out banning books or blowing up abortion clinics? To all of these, the answer is NO!"

Here is where everything comes to a head. No, 'whatever' is not doing any of these things. But as many Atheists and freethinkers have successfully argued, just because the people themselves are perfectly innocuous, does NOT mean their beliefs are. Illogical belief in magic, psychics, witches and the supernatural has led to untold millennia of greif and suffering, undoubtedly in part due to the complacency of believers. After all, the question still remains: if you believe in magic, and they believe in magic, can you possibly be in a position to criticize their specific interpretation? You're both operating off of unfounded opinions, so who's to say yours is any more valid than the fundie's? Your belief supplies implicit, environmental support, a fertile ground if you will, for evil weeds to take root.

SpukiKitty

Otis the Sweaty & Wotan's Kreiger must be best pals, with their bodily funk and all.....

SpukiKitty

I'll bet Otis looks like this:

No wonder he's a misogynist jerk whom no woman would touch! Who would want THIS THING?!!!

whatever

@J. James
Firstly, the word "magic" is amorphous and ambiguous as I said, and should not be used in any debate as it's meaning is never clear. The word "supernatural" is also meaningless. All of the Universe is "nature". Therefore anything that happens within that universe is natural.

I am not particularly interested in what you do or do not have patience with. As far as I see it, that is your problem. If I have an experience of something that does not fit within your rather restricted worldview, then I have a right to say so without prejudice. As I said, ridicule is the preserve of the deeply insecure.

"Your belief supplies implicit, environmental support, a fertile ground if you will, for evil weeds to take root."

You do come across like the Christian fundies, I'm sorry to say. They constantly use the "absolute morals" argument, which you appear to be usurping. It's the same as saying "there's nothing to stop atheists from raping, murdering, and eating babies". You assume that psychic function leads to abuses. The truth is, all these things come with responsibility attached. And as I said, if you do not wish to accept it, then that is fine. But don't attack me for occupying a stance different from your own, then go on to criticise fundies for their lack of tolerance towards others.

J. James

@whatever
"Firstly, the word "magic" is amorphous and ambiguous as I said, and should not be used in any debate as it's meaning is never clear."

Sweet Jesus, heaven forbid we call a spade a spade. It's magic, no matter how you spell it. There are no semantics to be had over the term.

"If I have an experience of something that does not fit within your rather restricted worldview, then I have a right to say so without prejudice. As I said, ridicule is the preserve of the deeply insecure."

Okay, just STOP with your high-and-mighty holier-than-thou whinging. I am not saying that you have no right to voice your beliefs. Quite the opposite! You have every right to shout your beliefs from the mountaintop. But what you DON'T have is the right to say such things and automatically expect deference and respect for them, just because you believe in them. Which brings us to MY right to call them out as silly, false and dangerous.

"'Your belief supplies implicit, environmental support, a fertile ground if you will, for evil weeds to take root.'
You do come across like the Christian fundies, I'm sorry to say. They constantly use the "absolute morals" argument, which you appear to be usurping. It's the same as saying 'there's nothing to stop atheists from raping, murdering, and eating babies'."

Hold it right there. I am not saying that there is an absolute morality. There is no such thing. I'm an atheist, remember? What I'm saying is that when you do not base your beliefs or morality on FACTS AND EVIDENCE, then you leave pandora's box open for all this mayhem to come spilling out. An atheist can attack another atheist for raping and murdering, because they can point to evidence that it is harmful and bad. But when believers criticize one another, the perpetrator's justifications for their actions are equally valid to the critic's, that is to say, neither are valid!

By the way, you're calling me narrow-minded? He who refuses to even consider their own fallibility or even trust the scientific explanation of your so-called phenomena? That's rich.

"You assume that psychic function leads to abuses. The truth is, all these things come with responsibility attached."

You have got to be kidding me.

"And as I said, if you do not wish to accept it, then that is fine. But don't attack me for occupying a stance different from your own, then go on to criticide fundies for their lack of tolerance towards others."

And here we go again. I am not being a hypocrite for pointing out your nonsensical woo and then turning around and calling Fundies intolerant. That's because there is a fundamental difference between factual criticism and unfactual bigotry. Sure, you may be indignant that I call whatever it is that you're peddling the umbrella term "magic," rather than the specific hair-splitting term you prefer, but it's not like the lies that Fundies spew out about the promiscuity of gays, the beliefs of Moslems, and the inferiority of minorities.

Furthermore, the difference between criticism and intolerance extends to the behaviors exhibited. Fundies don't say, "I know that the little family of Jews across the street are a part of a massive cabal bent on world domination and the extinction of my culture, but I'm gonna just treat them like everyone else in the interest of equality and civility." Intolerance implies that you cannot tolerate the very existence or proximity of something, and are bent on censoring, defeating or destroying it. Criticism means that you're pointing out that something is wrong, but you still allow it to exist, and still allow it to be seen.

What you want is preferential treatment. You want deference, respect, and obsequiousness towards your beliefs. And I won't have it. I do not bow to false idols. If you want your beliefs to be respected, then they had better earn it.

whatever

@J. James
"What you want is preferential treatment. You want deference, respect, and obsequiousness towards your beliefs. And I won't have it. I do not bow to false idols. If you want your beliefs to be respected, then they had better earn it."

Well I am rather dumbfounded... at no point have I ever suggested that I want any level of deference shown towards me. This is so like the fundies who say "homosexuals want special rights". I want to see people with other views saying "well I don't agree with you but if you are happy with your views then fine, as long as you are not hurting anyone". Or some words to that effect. The very fact that you have instead created a massive rant indicates that you have a severe complex with anything that doesn't fit your preferred worldview.

"Gee wiz, you were wearily anticipating when the term "anecdotal evidence" would crop up, then you go and list an anecdote for evidence...?"

I gave an anecdote as an anecdote. It is unimportant to me whether people believe me or not. But I do know from experience that this is real, and not "woo". Neither is it "silly", "false", or "dangerous". As for "Your belief supplies implicit, environmental support, a fertile ground if you will, for evil weeds to take root"... WTF?!

By all means go on being an atheist, it's what you want to be. But your prolonged ranting at me for accepting psychic ability (which I didn't choose to have in the first place) is completely unacceptable behaviour. It indicates atheist fundy. You can't just live and let live, you have to stomp. I just wish you could see yourself in that shiny mirror.

I have been among the FSTDT commenters for approximately two years and I share the dislike of most commenters for homophobia, racism, sexism and general intolerance. I feel sorry for those who sit around waiting for the rapture, and I despair at those who go around saying "If I was president/state governor/dictator/pope"...

So stop ranting at those you disagree with, and find something worthwhile to say. Stick to commenting on the OP rather than creating needless arguments with other commenters. Thank you and goodbye.

THE END

whatever

@SpukiKitty
I love that picture! Needs a swastika tattoo though...

J. James

"Well I am rather dumbfounded... at no point have I ever suggested that I want any level of deference shown towards me."

Not using those words, no, but that's definitely your attitude. You expect everyone to just curtly nod and acknowledge the validity of your beliefs just because you believe them to be true, and are therefore just as valid as anyone else's opinion. Sorry to break it to you, but not all beliefs are created equal.

"This is so like the fundies who say 'homosexuals want special rights'."

No, its merely pointing out the obvious fact that not every opinion is on equal factual ground.

"I want to see people with other views saying 'well I don't agree with you but if you are happy with your views then fine, as long as you are not hurting anyone'."

Except I AM saying that. You remember me saying that you have every right to shout your beliefs on the mountaintop? You remember me saying that you have absolutely no intention to harm anyone or take anyone's rights away? I am not persecuting you. I am saying that your beliefs are harmful and untrue. You don't seem to be grasping the difference.

"The very fact that you have instead created a massive rant indicates that you have a severe complex with anything that doesn't fit your preferred worldview."

Armchair psychological diagnosis aside, I freely admit that I do have a complex. I see otherwise decent people falling prey to the exact same bullshit that spawns Fundies the world over and it makes me furious, because they're so much better than that. Call that a complex if you will. As for the size of my rants, just because I'm long-winded doesn't mean I'm incorrect.

"By all means go on being an atheist, it's what you want to be. But your prolonged ranting at me for accepting psychic ability (which I didn't choose to have in the first place) is completely unacceptable behaviour. It indicates atheist fundy. You can't just live and let live, you have to stomp. I just wish you could see yourself in that shiny mirror."

You're exactly right. I can't just live and let live. Edmund Burke said that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." To see people, good people, succumb to the evils of magic and psychics and homeopathy and Christian Science and theocracy and yet say nothing is unacceptable. I'm not going to "stomp" out your rights, though, because I'm not a fundy. Instead, I'm going to respect your rights and call you out on your harmful claims.

"So stop ranting at those you disagree with, and find something worthwhile to say."

I can't help but notice you haven't addressed my core substantive points yet, that there is a difference between criticism and intolerance, that believers have no factual standing to disagree with fundies, that false belief in itself is an appeasement of the fundies, and that beliefs do not automatically garner respect, they must earn it.

You see, I think the problem here is that you do not accept the fact that your beliefs are harmful, even if you yourself aren't. Ignorance is a harm in and of itself, and it disarms those who would otherwise be fighting the genuine intolerance and evil of fundies.

Honestly, if you don't believe that stupidity can lead to problems, you're on the wrong website. They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but I believe that the road to Fundy rule is paved with well-meaning but irrational beliefs, and the implicit consent of the harmless believers. I cannot reiterate this enough: only those who base their worldview in facts are capable of exposing the fundies' worldview. You can't do so if you're in the same box that they are.

whatever

@J.James
"You see, I think the problem here is that you do not accept the fact that your beliefs are harmful, even if you yourself aren't. Ignorance is a harm in and of itself, and it disarms those who would otherwise be fighting the genuine intolerance and evil of fundies."

I do not have beliefs, I have some limited access to clairvoyance, clairaudience, and awareness of spirit. I cannot for the life of me see how this is harmful.

"Edmund Burke said that "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." To see people, good people, succumb to the evils of magic and psychics and homeopathy and Christian Science and theocracy and"...

Stop. The very fact that you lump these things together proves you are too ignorant to debate with on this subject. You genuinely do not know what you are talking about. I don't mean that in a malicious way, but I see now there is no point in trying to reason with you.

The hallmark of the fundy: "How dare people exist who think differently from me". I should have realised this at the beginning. I'm not even going to return to this thread again, it's not worth it. I'm not going to gain anything from this and neither are you. I hereby agree to disagree and so should you.

SpukiKitty

@whatever.

You can't reason with an Antitheist Fundy. They honestly believe that ALL SPIRITUAL/METAPHYSICAL belief is evil. They think in black & white and toss the baby out with the bathwater.

They cannot fathom the fact that not all religion is evil. It's like Otis The Sweaty who thinks that all blacks are watermelon-munching hoodlums just because SOME happen to be hoodlums. Barack Obama, Morgan Freeman & a large majority of blacks aren't hoodlums but bigots ignore that.

These bozos can't stick with the subject: OTIS THE SWEATY! They are trolls. They derailed a thread....as trolls are wont to do.

But we will ignore them all, because trolls are idiots, we will discus Otis ONLY!

J. James

@whatever and SpukiKitty

I see how it is. You get too close to people's calcified beliefs, the ones they can't bear to lose, and they shut down. It's a self-defense mechanism. There is no point in arguing further. I have laid out my arguments, and you have refused to engage them. We are done here.

Well, apparently, some people like you are stupid enough being racist without reason.

If men are so great, why do you have to have idiotic sites like this to cry over the supposed injustices that men suffer instead of erasing them?. At least, be consistent.