You cannot legislate morality. I have heard that phrase repeated often throughout my lifetime. It must be true. Lennon, the founder of Russian Communism, said that if you tell a lie loud enough and often enough people will believe it. I recently came across a Christian minister who repeated that phrase to me and expressed that he believed it was true. How have we gotten so confused? Is it immoral to shop lift? If we cannot legislate morality, does that mean we cannot have a law that makes shoplifting illegal? If our laws are not based on moral principles they are of no value. Most laws do in fact legislate morality. If a law does not legislate morality the law is unnecessary. Do we really believe that the God of the Bible is the creator of the universe, and the creator of man? If so, doesn’t it stand to reason that we should look to our creator for moral guidance?
74 comments
Laws legislate:
1. Against behaviours that seek to cause deliberate harm to others;
2. Against behaviours which cause harm to others or society through negligence;
3. The construction of social framework to allow meaningful and safe interactions within society.
None of these are morality based, but based instead in ethics. The difference being that ethics can be figured out, while morality comes from an external source which people disagree upon.
Lennon, The basist for British rock band The Beatles, said no such thing. You are thinking of Goebbels, the propaganda engineer of German Nazism.
These idiots are too stupid to breathe.
No. Lennon founded the English Beatles. Lenin led the second Russian Revolution. Goebbels said that. You said disobedient childtren should be stoned to death. If you self-published a pile of rotting brains, that doesn't mean anyone has to pay attention to it, except at your competency hearing.
I was telling a story to a group of friends once, about my visit to Lenins tomb in Red Square, when I was interrupted by a guy who asked, "What is he doing in Moscow?",
"Huh?"
" Wasn't he killed in New York ?"
" Huh?".
This reminds me of that.
"You cannot legislate morality."
It is a confusing statement but what it means is passing a law is not going to change people's morality.
It's not to say we shouldn't consider morality when making laws, but we should primarily consider whether the law itself is moral not just whether the target of the law is moral. The fact that someone is doing something immoral doesn't mean we can magically solve that by passing a law. Sometimes a law is the best way to deal with it. I wish we had more of these laws when dealing with immoral corporate behavior. But even there you could overreach.
Sometimes a law against something immoral will do more harm than good, and sometimes the only evidence of "immorality" is that an ancient book says so. Moral rule number one for law-making, laws should not be based on arbitrary and capricious reasoning. Obscure passages taken out of context from an ancient book of questionable authenticity is NOT moral to use to make laws off of.
"Lennon" aside, there's a difference between laws protecting people from the acts of other people, and laws prohibiting things which aren't harming anyone and were enacted because some people were squeamish about what some other people were doing.
It all comes down to whether there's a victim or not. If someone shoplifts, the store owner is a victim of theft. If two consenting adults have sex outside of marriage, there's no victim.
" Do we really believe that the God of the Bible is the creator of the universe, and the creator of man? If so, doesn’t it stand to reason that we should look to our creator for moral guidance?"
No, we believe that the Allah of the Koran creator of the universe, and the creator of man. It stands to reason that we should look to our creator for moral guidance. Also Vladimir Lenin was not in a 1960s rock group.
As a left-libertarian I agree that one can not effectively legislate morality - but that does not mean the breakdown of anything. We can still legislate based on the idea that hurting other people (physical, emotional and financial) over a certain line is inefficient to society.
As much as revenge in the judicial system, morality has no place in lawmaking.
"Do we really believe that the God of the Bible is the creator of the universe, and the creator of man? If so, doesn’t it stand to reason that we should look to our creator for moral guidance?"
- Having read the bible, I can honestly say say no.
Lennon, the founder of Russian Communism, said that if you tell a lie loud enough and often enough people will believe it.
(John) Lennon was one of the Beatles, a 1960 boy band.
(Vladimir) Lenin was in influential figure in the October Revolution, and eventually became premier of the Sovjet Union.
Notice a difference?
Also, the quote can not be attributed to either of these figures. It's a nazi quote, though I forget who made it.
"If we cannot legislate morality, does that mean we cannot have a law that makes shoplifting illegal?"
Shoplifting is not illegal because it is immoral, moron.
"If our laws are not based on moral principles they are of no value. Most laws do in fact legislate morality."
The only laws that attempt to legislate morality are those that were passed to appease the religious, such as many places not selling alcohol on Sundays until after noon and other such "blue" laws.
"Do we really believe that the God of the Bible is the creator of the universe, and the creator of man? If so, doesn’t it stand to reason that we should look to our creator for moral guidance?"
Fine. As soon as he appears so that we may directly ask his opinion of things I'll be more than happy to have laws legislated to enforce his opinions. Laws should not be created based on someone's interpretation of what this deity supposedly wants done based on reading some bronze age collection of bullshit.
The quote has been, rather dubiously, attributed to Lenin, but it probably comes from either Goebbels or Hitler and the same point is expressed in Mein Kampf, with much projection(later, Goebbels of all people attributed the "big lie" practice to Churchill).
if you tell a lie loud enough and often enough people will believe it
You mean like this?:
image
"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas. "
I'm sure there are a few die-hard Republicans who still believe him.
"Lennon, the founder of Russian Communism"
(*sings *):
'You say you want a revolution
Well you know
We'd all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well you know
We'd all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
You say you got a real solution
Well you know
We'd all want to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well you know
We're all doing what we can
But if you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell you is brother you'll have to wait
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
You say you'll change the constitution
Well you know
We'd all love to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well you know
You better free your mind instead
But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow
Don't you know know it's gonna be alright'
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Oh no more, please Mr. Wilde, I am bereft of ribs!
--EDIT--
@Frank
"Lennon, the founder of Russian Communism"
Not to mention Paul McCarthy who founded "McCarthyism"
Ringo Stalin who founded "Stalinism"
George never took much interest in politics."
image
=^_^= X3
"Lennon, the founder of Russian Communism"
Not to mention Paul McCarthy who founded "McCarthyism"
Ringo Stalin who founded "Stalinism"
George never took much interest in politics.
I want to create a robot of Stalin's likeness to go murder some of these people. But that would be unethical.
Why Stalin? Because he would love to do that kind of thing, I bet.
@Frank
Pretty sure George Harrison was the 9th President of the United States, famous for saying, "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
You're thinking of Lennon, the founder of Scouse Fabbism, who said "I am the Walrus, goo goo ga joob".
You'd think these people would use a simple thing called "google" to see a, how to spell "Lenin" and b, who actually said that.
Interestingly, this argument isn't much questioned: "...God of the Bible is the creator of the universe, and the creator of man... If so, doesn't it stand to reason that we should look to our creator for moral guidance?"
No, that actually doesn't necessarily follow.
@D Laurier: Paul played bass.
"Lennon?" That's just too funny.
@Protagonist - Actually laws don't legislate morality. They regulate injury. Typically things are illegal not because they are immoral but because they cause physical or financial injury to someone other than the person performing the act.
There are exceptions of course but if you think about it most of those exceptions, laws against prostitution, receational drugs and prohibition, are failures.
"You cannot legislate morality" really means you cannot legislate morality that doesn't protect against some associated injury.
The strongest argument to my mind against abortion access is that it causes injury to the fetus.
I don't agree with the argument, I still say the decision resides with the woman and her advisors, but it is the strongest argument.
Lennon, the founder of Russian Communism, said that if you tell a lie loud enough and often enough people will believe it.
1) You're thinking of Lenin and he didn't found Russian Communism either.
2) Lenin didn't say that. It was said by Goebbels.
It depends on your definition of "morality". What people mean when they say "you cannot legislate morality" is that you cannot legislate the kinds of things the Bible tries to legislate: peoples' private sex lives, what they eat, how they dress, what movies or music they enjoy, etc. No one seriously suggests you can't have laws against theft, rape, fraud, murder or other things that inflict harm on other people.
We legislate laws based on protecting the individual rights to life, liberty and property. That's the cornerstone of libertarianism. Any action that doesn't fall under a violation of any of those rights, regardless of whether or not it is deemed 'immoral', cannot be regulated against or made illegal in a truly free society.
So yes, we do legalize morality to an extent, however this doesn't give an excuse to make anything illegal simply because you or your religion believes it's 'immoral'. The idea that you hold the God of the Bible to be some kind of moral law giver is a religious one, and not to be forced upon an entire free society.
@Mike Litoris
That's fantastic
That reminds me of the joke in which Mark Chapman is asked in trial why he killed Lennon. Chapman looks at the judge, quite puzzled, and says, "Lennon? Wasn't it Lenin?"
D Laurier
Lennon, The basist for British rock band The Beatles,
Rhythm Guitar I think old boy. And it would be Bassist as it's a Bass guitar that Macca plays.
One of the Beatles founded Communism? He wasn't even born yet in 1917! He wasn't a Nazi propaganda guy, either.
Nazi Communist British Sixties Rock Stars!
Holy shit, I just saw on his other quote (the one about killing(!) “unruly” children) that he is an elected politician
How? How can you be in the public eye (as a politician is automatically) and make statements like these and nobody in the press or otherwise is calling you out for it?
I just don’t understand it. Can an American please explain to me how this can happen? I mean, the political system in Germany is quite messed up in some parts, but I can only imagine the shitstorm that would happen if some politician here would make public statements like this. This goes also for all the other fundy politicians quoted on this site.
(For the record: I have no intend to bash the American system or people. I honestly just want to understand how the system and the people that seem to thrive in it can be so different in two western democracies.)
Easy mistake, both are men and have...eyes and hair...
image
image
...in different places but it's definitely hair!
Adey:
I left two comments, both informative, regarding the difference between Lenin and Lennon and the true origin of the quote. He deleted both and left his post unchanged, which tells us that he is more interested in catering to your average, hateful and misinformed fundy fucktard than in the truth.
So yes, he is, in fact, a typical shitstain.
Lenin, silly, not Lennon.
It's illegal to shoplift. As you deprive someone else of their belonging, it is also immoral. It's immoral not to help poor people, but it's not illegal.
No, we do NOT believe that the God of the Bible is the creator of the universe and of man. So no, we should NOT look to an imaginary being for guidance.
“You cannot legislate morality.”
Morality is doing the right thing for the right reason.
Legality is acceptable behavior, usually without giving a toss about motivations.
I mean, murder is illegal. If you don’t kill, it doesn’t matter, legally, if you refrain because you feel that all humans have intrinsic value. It’s just as legal to think we’re in a simulation, and simply treat not-killing as the easier way through the game.
IN an afterlife, God may know if you were virtuous or simply lazy, but the law doesn’t care.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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