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Quote# 90898

[Discussing God and the problem of evil.]

In an atheistic world, it would not matter if we went around killing each other because the species would still exist just fine!

To see how this is true, just observe other species who kill members of their own.

You are essentially arguing that humans are special, which is a theistic argument, which means the problem of evil is refuted.

[...]

We do not live in an atheistic world. We live in a theistic world.

If we lived in an atheistic world, you would see us running around in anarchy.

The mere fact that we have order and laws means that the theists automatically start out with a +1 in the debate.

[...]

This is a very tired argument.

It is my belief that the atheists do not kill or rape "just in case" God is real. They want to have some kind of leg to stand on if the judgement day occurs.

Self-Mutation, Freethought & Rationalism Discussion Board 47 Comments [11/22/2012 4:24:34 AM]
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beehummingbird

"It is my belief that the atheists do not kill or rape "just in case" God is real. They want to have some kind of leg to stand on if the judgement day occurs."

People like this scare me. Is their belief in god really the only thing that holds them back from raping and killing people?

11/22/2012 4:35:09 AM

dylanstrategie

I'm sure even animals understand killing their own species is detrimental to their own survival (to a degree)

And again, evolution is not a social policy, and our brain allows us to understand the serious problem with killing another human being

That is if you have a brain to start with ?

11/22/2012 4:38:10 AM

chaosof99

Killing matters because WE make it matter, because we, as a society, decide to punish people who do evil, because we recognize that people aren't perfect, that we need to educate and raise each other, to make each other better.

We do good because we recognize that it helps everyone, and we don't do bad because we punish each other for doing so. God is not a necessity to make bad things matter to each other.

But please, if you must, retain your belief in god, because that is apparently the only thing that keeps you, not us, from becoming a sociopath.

11/22/2012 4:41:10 AM

gravematter

"To see how this is true, just observe other species who kill members of their own."
Have you actually read the Bible? There really are a whole lot of God-approved killings in there.
"The mere fact that we have order and laws means that the theists automatically start out with a +1 in the debate."
Lots of species live in societies that have order and laws. They're not as sophisticated as ours, but it certainly implies that order and laws came before the concept of God.
"It is my belief that the atheists do not kill or rape "just in case" God is real. They want to have some kind of leg to stand on if the judgement day occurs."
Have you ever considered that most people don't rape and murder because they don't want to be raped and murdered themselves? Or even, gasp, that they have a basic sense of empathy? Morality really doesn't require God, and if the only check on your behaviour is the idea that God is watching you, then you might need some psychiatric help.

11/22/2012 4:56:58 AM

Leighton Buzzard

Why the fuck would I want to rape and kill? I wouldn't enjoy it, and it wouldn't do me any good.

Do idiots like this not understand the concept that anarchic societies are not pleasant places to live, which is why we tend not to have them? Which part of 'I'd rather not be raped or killed, so let's make sure people who do that are deterred from such behaviour' do fools like this not get?

11/22/2012 4:57:17 AM

UHM

This argument would only hold true if mindless animals would not be able to organize through thousands of years of process. Thing is, they do. Termintes built towers, swarms fly and swim together in meticulous formations, numerous animals (like apes) build territories and packs which one of them rules (sound familiar?).
The fact is, organization helps a species survive, so not only do we need houses and farms - but we also need ethics to regulate how we behave in a society. These ethics are ever changing - if you had the slightest interest in other cultures and cultures prior to you own, you'd know that - and you simply don't like that change. What will happen is simple, your kind will die out, our's will survive and thrive. See you, fosile.


11/22/2012 5:41:10 AM

pete

It's weird. I have never had the slightest desire to do any of the horrible things that fundies claim they would do if they didn't believe in God. I also seem to lack the bloodthirsty and vile nature they always project on atheists.

11/22/2012 5:41:25 AM

Kuno

The morality of people like that is simply “I am allowed to do anything that my god agrees with and I am not allowed to do only the things my god forbids.” So all they need is to rationalize everything they want to do as “doing god’s will” and they can do the most despicable and disgusting things imaginable and still feel righteous and look down on everyone else…

Just look at the crusades, the inquisition or 9/11.

And they have the gall to say atheists are immoral.

11/22/2012 5:51:18 AM

Justanotheratheist

Like almost all other atheists, I have no desire to kill, rape, or maim anybody. However, even in this non-atheistic world people have been killing each other by every means imaginable, and the species still exists just fine.

Now, then, one has to ask the million dollar question: Just who is it who has been doing all this killing? Atheists? Hardly. Sure, there are atheist killers - but religion has helped to kill infinitely more people than a lack of religion.

11/22/2012 6:13:57 AM

farpadokly

To say that humans are special isn't necessarily theistic.
"If we lived in an atheistic world, you would see us running around in anarchy". Explain, then, non-theistic tribes who live organized social lives and don't "run around in anarchy".
Explain also the plethora of wars and conflicts started and maintained by theistic societies.
Law is secular in the West, and subject to revision. If we upheld the Biblical law, there would be a huge outcry as it simply does not fit the values of modern people.
"atheists do not kill or rape "just in case" God is real". People don't kill or rape because 1, Killing and raping is wrong. We don't need a deity to tell us this. We can realize it just by asking ourselves these questions: "Would I like to be killed or raped? Would I like it if my loved ones were killed or raped?".
2, Even if they wanted to, they might refrain from doing so because of punishment by secular laws, police forces and prisons.
Morality is not God and does not depend on God. Law is not God and does not depend on God.
Lastly, please see Death Row statistics for how many people executed, often for murder and rape, are theists.

11/22/2012 6:14:14 AM

Sharon Young

I've definitely said this here before:
God cannot exist without morality.
Morality can exist without God.

... and is the fear of divine punishment what keeps OP from killing or raping? If so, I for one would prefer OP to continue believing in whatever God you will.

However, it is perhaps the maintenance of social order, or even the universal regard for the sanctity of human life, that keeps one from killing.

Sadly, anarchy cannot be directly equated to Insta-Chaos®; the burden of order and discipline of society does not come from a higher power or an overarching body, it is shifted to the individual as her obligation to the collective.

The mere fact that we have order and laws simply means that our society has formed a social contract with us the individuals as an obligation to it, or perhaps to God; obedience to God, in a positive way, can help even when the laws don't. There's always the flipside which can't be disregarded either. But obedience to God is not the only obedience, although I won't doubt that to some, it can be one.

It's a really tired argument, that I'll have to agree with no shred of doubt.

It's my belief that we have our own reasons for why we don't kill or rape: higher powers, deterrence, obligations to maintain social order, individual-society agreements, universal beliefs. Just don't kill or rape, even if that emphasizes what over why.

11/22/2012 6:16:04 AM



I swear I watched a program on a species that (they think) went extinct because they murdered each other so much (over petty territory disputes) that they could no longer find others to mate with.

11/22/2012 7:09:32 AM

EG

> In an atheistic world, it would not matter if we went around killing each other because the species would still exist just fine!

The latter is true regardless of what you believe, as long as you don't take it to the extreme of driving your species to extinction.

> If we lived in an atheistic world, you would see us running around in anarchy.

Citation needed.
Making the claim does not make it so.

> It is my belief that the atheists do not kill or rape "just in case" God is real.

You'd be wrong then.

11/22/2012 7:13:29 AM

KittyKaboom

Your racist, homophobic, misogynistic god is not the source of morailty. His teachings and his people: ditto. Don't flatter yourself.

If the only thing that keeps you from raping women and murdering your fellow humans is fear of postmortem consequences, you are more profoundly capable of evil than any atheist or non-christian.

Atheists and those of us who practice non-christian religions don't need you to save us from ourselves; we need the law to protect us from you.

11/22/2012 7:25:54 AM

Arctic Knight

I know I do not want someone to murder me, therefore I know that murder is wrong. Morality really is just that simple and does not require your mythology.

11/22/2012 7:26:36 AM

LAchlan

That's right, cos right now no cunt kills anyone. Shut the fuck up you idiot.

11/22/2012 7:47:07 AM

ToxicInfluence

Animals kill other species or their own over many things, territory, mating rights etc. But evil? That's very much a human concept in this regard, and the same for good, we do these things because it helps us as a species, not because a religious text says so.

11/22/2012 8:22:25 AM



I wonder if it would alarm theists to finally realize a world of rape and murder only "makes sense" to them and the rest of us find it insane. Even a true sociopath would find it at the very least "inconvenient" to themselves.

11/22/2012 8:31:48 AM

JSS

Interesting arguments...

•Some animals kill each other because they have no conception of God, let alone belief in him.
•Atheists don't believe in God.
•Therefore athiests want to kill each other just like animals.

•We have societies of order
•People who believe in God promote societies of order
•Therefore because we have order, God exists.

I think they fall under this category...

11/22/2012 8:44:40 AM



i dont know about other atheists, but i dont kill and rape because i have no desire to be the source of indescribable fear and terror to another sentient being. i dont murder and rape because having friends helps prevent you from being murdered or raped. i dont murder and rape because i personally feel that it is wrong, and a destructive practice that hurts all of society.

the only argument that is tiring is yours, that atheists are inherently evil/immoral for lack of god. however, it is becoming increasingly obvious that you would be out raping and pillaging every day if you thought god wasnt around rattling his hellfire and brimstone saber at you, so i hope you never give up your beliefs.

11/22/2012 11:36:32 AM

Sasha

I think Self-Mutation here believes that law & order are passed down to us from a higher authority, and without that higher authority everyone would run amok.

Rather I believe that law & order were developed from rules of interpersonal behavior (Don't hit me and I won't hit you) and extended over the rest of society.

People created law & order, not mythological beings. Give us some credit; humans aren't all as stupid as this nut.

11/22/2012 11:44:03 AM

Sasha

Aargh! A double post!

11/22/2012 11:46:05 AM

anti-nonsense

No, I don't rape and kill because I have a sense of basic human decency, which, I can conclude from your comments that you do not. Go fuck yourself.

11/22/2012 11:46:45 AM

fishtank

It continues to baffle me of these fuckers think any of this. And much it says about their own twisted virtues.

11/22/2012 12:03:25 PM

New Face of Rev

We co-operate because it was (and still is) necessary for our own survival, 1 human alone is prey, 5 humans working as a team are a formidable hunter.

11/22/2012 1:26:33 PM
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