The old guestbook is now
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Below are
posts from September 25, 2003 to February 20, 2004, ordered from latest to
earliest.
Entries (Newest First):
Your page "Organisms That Look Designed" was entertaining. Great work.
In reply to Tony's question ("What will you say when millions of people disappear in the Rapture?") I will say "thank God we are minus millions of brain dead fundy nuts :-) Meteorite Debris(Webpage) <epicurus1@optusnet.com.au>
Adelaide, SA Australia -
Murphy's law indeed...rofl! Pete
UK -
They just keep getting dumber! I lost count of how many times my jaw dropped as I thought "No way, there's no way someone could be that moronic and still function in society." It's a very good thing you added the disclaimer to the FAQ - I think this month's ... er, "winners" may have inflicted some serious brain trauma (and I wonder how many concussions they must have had in order to come up with the thought process behind some of those posts). Crosis
United States -
This was the funniest and at the same time scariest page Ive seen in a very long time.
I know that people are fundies and extreme but I still get upset everytime I read their moronic claims and theories!! Zapata
Sweden -
Yes! Fundie-baiting is the best way to reveal their ignorance.
They really need that fixed moral framework, because without religion, someone who encourages maximum suffering in the Middle East for ultimate acceptance is surely just a psychopath?
If anyone is wavering, don't fear atheism. It's hard, but it's independent, and after millions of years of senseless evolution, and only this fraction of it free, is there anything more important?
There should be more intelligently-written sites like this. Take heart though, atheism is to be taught in UK schools! james
Leicester, UK -
this is the biggest bunch of garbage coming from the most ignorant people I have ever read troutman <gatesy@msn.com>
new york, NY United States -
[b]What will all the scoffers and doubters say when the book of Revelation comes true before your eyes? What will you say when millions of people disappear in the Rapture? What will you say when Damascus is destroyed just like the prophet Isaiah foretold? What will you say when Russia, Iran, Libya, etc. attempt to invade Israel but are thwarted by God, just like Ezekiel foretold? Where do you want to be after it all goes down? Jesus is the way to salvation.
Tony
USA -[/b]
This arguement totally relies on emotional arguement. A emotional arguement, is a pathetic arguement. It does not rely on reason and logic but this certain one presents itself as "You better commit yourself or you will be in the lake of fire". Lets play feeding him with his own medicine.
What will you Christians and believers say when you find out the Bible is not true? What will you say when more horrible acts are done by Christianity? What will you say when U.S.A.(Which is "supposedly" under God *Cough.*) falls under another country's power? What will you say when Isreal is destroyed? Jesus is NOT the way to salavation.
See a emotional arguement can go either way. I would love to see someone prove God actually exists. You can compare the God to Santa Claus in so many ways it isn't even funny. Now, lets stop all this nonsense of this nation being founded by Christianity and emotional arguements. Lets use logic and reason... oh dang! Christians can't use that =P.
By the way, excellent site Winace. Thanks to people like you, there is hope for humanity yet. By converting people to be "born again Atheists", you have made the world a better place to live in; thank you. You're a inspiration to all of us freethinkers, critical thinkers and us who want to live without Old Age Mythology. Keep up your good work, I just can't thank you enough man. Klashbash <ReasonandLogic@Earth.com>
United States - What will all the scoffers and doubters say when the book of Revelation comes true before your eyes?
Bring me my video camera, this is EPIC!
What will you say when millions of people disappear in the Rapture?
Good Riddance! Pussies. Let's go raid their refrigerators.
What will you say when Damascus is destroyed just like the prophet Isaiah foretold?
And that's a loss,... uh,... why?
What will you say when Russia, Iran, Libya, etc. attempt to invade Israel but are thwarted by God, just like Ezekiel foretold?
KILL THE UMP!
Where do you want to be after it all goes down?
In a strip joint.
Jesus is the way to salvation.
The way to what? He couldn't even get his sorry ass out of Jerusalem ahead of the lynch mob. He's supposed to be leading moi? The Rat <whaler@sympatico.ca>
Toronto, ON Canada -
I've lost all faith in mankind. KnightofNi <Blackdog362@hotmail.com>
St. Louis, Mo United States -
Ohhhhhhh... Goooood GAWD. My brain hurts. Your 'fundies say the darnedest things' page has officially crippled my ability to reason. The disabiling display of utter stupidity showcased therein, has submitted me to retarding forces worse than those of 'somethingawful' 's weekend web. I fully intend to send any fundie related therapy bills to you.. and then come back once a month to feel the stuppor inducing waves of idiotic humor.
Fundie hunt on, Amigo! Clockwork
Fairport, NY United States -
Great site! Keep up the good work!
Xpen(Webpage) <frdmftr03@cox.net>
Virginia Beach, VA United States -
FStDT is one of the few things that can be hilarious and depressing at the same time. Kepp it up! dayton <dayton32@centraslpets.com>
Troy, OH United States -
Hilarious! As one of those (okay, maybe not those) fundies, I can tell you that your viewpoint is right on--really. *shakes my head* Although the commonly held sweeping generalization of "Christianity = stupidity/Atheism = intelligence" has always been a point of contention for me personally, I have to tell you that, after reading some of those horrid responses, I am empathetic to your concerns about the I.Q. of some of us...Bleah!
Anyway--it's WAY past bedtime, and enough is enough for now. Good stuff!
All the best,
Dixie Carla/(DixieNurse)(Webpage) <DixieNurse@foolmoon.com>
Northwestern , MS United States - What will all the scoffers and doubters say when the book of Revelation comes true before your eyes? What will you say when millions of people disappear in the Rapture? What will you say when Damascus is destroyed just like the prophet Isaiah foretold? What will you say when Russia, Iran, Libya, etc. attempt to invade Israel but are thwarted by God, just like Ezekiel foretold? Where do you want to be after it all goes down? Jesus is the way to salvation. Tony
"Holy crapcakes, doomsday is here! Better convert to Christianity before it is too late! What?! It already IS too late? Well, bollocks to that then. I'll be down the pub" Galvatrond
Nørway -
ha,ha,ha. leicester city lost again Anton
UK -
What will all the scoffers and doubters say when the book of Revelation comes true before your eyes? What will you say when millions of people disappear in the Rapture? What will you say when Damascus is destroyed just like the prophet Isaiah foretold? What will you say when Russia, Iran, Libya, etc. attempt to invade Israel but are thwarted by God, just like Ezekiel foretold? Where do you want to be after it all goes down? Jesus is the way to salvation. Tony
USA -
hey
ya every been to Clear Guidance?
http://forums.clearguidance.com/index.php?
now that's some classic FStDT... Yealin!
United States -
I see *someone* decided to have fun with this guestbook by posting around 90 pages of links to porn websites, racism and other BS. Well, I guess the porn sites were OK...
but at any rate, I may have to install a limit to the number of characters you can enter in any single post to prevent this from happening again. WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
NYC, NY United States -
"Guards,... Kill that man." - King Bruno the Questionable, Jabberwocky The Rat <whaler@sympatico.ca>
Toronto, ON Canada -
The Saga of Jan HATTO; "Paper Pale"...
[Insert a truly massive amount of off-topic, racist and raunchy porn
nonsense here] Hanna Gylfe (edited by WinAce
to remove off-topic nonsense, racist idiocy and raunchy porn links)
Haven't checked in for a while, but still loving it. SeebianWurm <seebianwurm@hotmail.com>
United States -
Cool, books on-line!
Got anything with more sex in it? I prefer the real raunchy stuff... The Rat <whaler@sympatico.ca>
Toronto, ON Canada -
[Insert a truly massive amount of off-topic, racist and raunchy porn
nonsense here]
Stina KAABDALIS(edited by WinAce
to remove off-topic nonsense, racist idiocy and raunchy porn links) Letter from a Birmingham Jail
[Excerpts] by Dr. Martin Luther King April 16, 1963
MY DEAR FELLOW CLERGYMEN:
While confined here in the Birmingham city jail, I came across your recent statement calling my present activities "unwise and untimely." Seldom do I pause to answer criticism of my work and ideas. If I sought to answer all the criticisms that cross my desk, my secretaries would have little time for anything other than such correspondence in the course of the day, and I would have no time for constructive work. But since I feel that you are men of genuine good will and that your criticisms are sincerely set forth, I want to try to answer your statements in what I hope will be patient and reasonable terms...
Perhaps it is easy for those who have never felt the stinging dark of segregation to say, "Wait." But when you have seen vicious mobs lynch your mothers and fathers at will and drown your sisters and brothers at whim; when you have seen hate-filled policemen curse, kick and even kill your black brothers and sisters; when you see the vast majority of your twenty million Negro brothers smothering in an airtight cage of poverty in the midst of an affluent society; when you suddenly find your tongue twisted and your speech stammering as you seek to explain to your six-year-old daughter why she can't go to the public amusement park that has just been advertised on television, and see tears welling up in her eyes when she is told that Funtown is closed to colored children, and see ominous clouds of inferiority beginning to form in her little mental sky, and see her beginning to distort her personality by developing an unconscious bitterness toward white people; when you have to concoct an answer for a five-year-old son who is asking: "Daddy, why do white people treat colored people so mean?"; when you take a cross-county drive and find it necessary to sleep night after night in the uncomfortable corners of your automobile because no motel will accept you; when you are humiliated day in and day out by nagging signs reading "white" and "colored"; when your first name becomes "nigger," your middle name becomes "boy" (however old you are) and your last name becomes "John," and your wife and mother are never given the respected title "Mrs."; when you are harried by day and haunted by night by the fact that you are a Negro, living constantly at tiptoe stance, never quite knowing what to expect next, and are plagued with inner fears and outer resentments; when you no forever fighting a degenerating sense of "nobodiness" then you will understand why we find it difficult to wait. There comes a time when the cup of endurance runs over, and men are no longer willing to be plunged into the abyss of despair. I hope, sirs, you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience...
Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood,
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.
[Click link above to read the complete letter]
Bullwinkle (edited by WinAce
for users of dialup connections, leaving only the most appropriate excerpt and
adding link to the rest)
TX United States -
I came by to check how things were going on this guestbook, now that I’ve recovered (mostly) from body surfing down the steps of the Field Museum in Chicago and tearing the ligaments in both ankles (not fun; and a thoroughly rotten way to end a vacation.).
Evidently, someone with a very small penis – and an even smaller intellect – decided it was somehow in his “rational self-interest” to post a listing of racist, anti-Semitic and bestial porn sites on this guestbook.
What a pity. Most of us are past that stage by the time we’re 13 or 14.
To help push that feeble-minded, testosterone-overladen pubescent’s post down towards the bottom on the page where it deserves -- since this board doesn’t have a septic tank so we can put his post where it really deserves to be, rotting amongst the other feces – and since it is the birthday of a truly great American, I have taken the liberty of posting Dr. Martin Luther King’s speech, “I Have a Dream.”
Delivered on the steps at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D.C. on August 28, 1963...
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal." I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.
[Click link above to read the complete speech] Bullwinkle (edited by WinAce
for users of dialup connections, leaving only the most appropriate excerpt and
adding link to the rest)
TX United States -
Tomax: With so many buffoons out there, it's really nice to have a viewpoint so FREAKING similar to mine.
Somehow, that doesn't seem to come out quite the way you intended. :) Godsword
United States - Devils advocate
What a cheesy cornball name you have chosen. Please understand that Latin does not equal spooky.
One observation I have found true is Satanists are a bunch of piss ants who never quite got over the bullying they received a school
Kind of like Finland.
Bud
United States -
I'm sorry, but my drunk-to-sober translator isn't working. Advocatus Diaboli
HELLsinki, Finland -
THis is the best. website. ever. it seriously took out of the deep all-hating depression i was in. your debate images roxxor, as do all these articles. you rock so hard, sir. I tip my hat to you (it's a pickle hat). with so many buffoons out there, its really nice to have a viewpoint so FREAKING similar to mine. Tomax(Webpage) <Tomax@verizon.net>
Gresham, OR United States -
Was that really necessary?
WinAce, feel free to delete this once the prior post is edited/deleted, since it won't make much sense without that one. Crosis
United States -
[Insert a truly massive amount of off-topic, racist and raunchy porn
nonsense here]
Michael Azar(edited by WinAce
to remove off-topic nonsense, racist idiocy and raunchy porn links)
I'm a little disappointed that you haven't gone to onlinebaptist.com and gotten some of the goofy quotes from that page. joe blow <aaa@2.com>
USA -
Hello. I came across this website. No really, I just wanted to tell you that during a search of my username in google I saw myself quoted here from another board and at first I was like "argg what's this?" but then as I am reading your site I feel that it is cool. Thank you for showing some respect for us in not having a hate-filled site but just humor. Shows some folks can disagree with people and still be relatively kind :) Sheba
United States -
Your forgiven Godsword.
Devils advocate
What a cheesy cornball name you have chosen. Please understand that Latin does not equal spooky.
One observation I have found true is Satanists are a bunch of piss ants who never quite got over the bullying they received a school
Kind of like Finland.
I believe I have spent a total of less than one hour in my replies to you. And I did not need to use the dictionary or thesaurus in my last post, but did so just to double-check my use of "munificent". Whatever else you may think of me, Bud, be certain that I do not lie. Now, try to salvage whatever shred of decency you might have had, and either depart, or cease your juvenile posts - I'm actually trying to help you save face. Godsword
United States -
Wut a post, I fink Godsword is a tad miffed?. This dumb ass ! "takes" five hours out of his life to reply to nasty old Bud. Now how many? times the thesaurus "wus" opened in the writing? one can only guess at, but there are definite points where you can see the poor dim bastard has unintentionally given himself an erection!.
It makes me break: into song the very thought! of this slack jaw with a forehead like a dinner plate putting such effort to so menial a purpose.
Here is the song , please feel welcome to sing along?
I knew a man a simple fuck and Godsword was his name o
S i m p l e – f u c k and Godsword was his name o Bud
United States - Now let me state again, "be a good little simpleton and fuck off until you learn to spell".
Oh great and wise Bud, how is it that you are unable to discern, even after being told to your face, that in none of my posts to which you have responded have I misspelled ANYTHING? And how is it that you, oh munificent one, can still function when your entire being must be filled with a self-revulsion unknown to those who can spell or who are not anal-retentive when it comes to spelling? And how can it be that thou, oh glorious one, could possibly have committed the following egregious spelling-type errors: "finger pointer", "can not", "weak minded", "its", "guest book"; not to mention ending a sentence with a preposition ("into"), and forgetting quite a few periods and commas and various other proper punctuations? And surely such a brilliant individual as yourself could not have failed to have noticed the joke I made regarding "weiser"; and it is inconceivable that a person as exalted as you would require correction in any way from a "dumb Christian" simpleton such as me.
I know - it wasn't really you, Bud, who made those posts and replies. It was someone pretending to be you. That explains everything. And since I am to you a "simpleton", it directly follows that you must have an IQ above 160. What an honor, joy, and privilege it has been to meet you, Bud, and to bask, albeit briefly and rather removed, in the glory and wisdom that flows from and in your words like rivulets emblazoned by the Sun - you use words like a farmer from another age would have used an ox. Godsword
United States -
Gotta love how many people STILL think that evolution claims that we evolved from monkeys. Quality stuff, keep it up winace! eyefragment <eyefragments@yahoo.com>
Tallahassee, FL United States -
Thets too meny vary good gokes Godswoerd.
The laments of that most insipid of characters, the finger pointer no doubt.
Now let me state again, "be a good little simpleton and fuck off until you learn to spell". Bud
United States -
Galvatrond,
We thank you for that compliment, from the bottom of our fundie hearts. Godsword
United States -
Eeexcellent!
No question about it, Americans make the best fundies. Galvatrond
Nørway -
Love your FSTDT site. (Just found it from II). However, FYI, some of the links on that page are broken (guestbook, link to your homepage, etc.)
Keep it up! Tom Ames
United States -
Bud,
"I have zero tolerance for idiots, in particular those that can not spell."
You must struggle with a great deal of self-loathing, I imagine. I cannot contemplate such a fate.
"The word is wiser. Its ironic you make a joke concerning the exact same weakness of mind."
Unavoidable self-loathing, combined with constantly having to play catch-up. It must be very difficult being you. By the way, "weiser" was not misspelled - you merely missed the joke.
Foul language is the mark of a shallow and corrupt mind. I assume you were aware of this. Then again, maybe not. Godsword
United States -
Man oh man, dumb Christians
I have zero tolerance for idiots, in particular those that can not spell.
The word is wiser. Its ironic you make a joke concerning the exact same weakness of mind.
Now be a good little simpleton and fuck off until you can spell. Bud
United States - Just out of interest - are you a Calvinist Godsword?
No. Godsword
USA -
Most of the links don't work.
How do you have the time to make all these quotes up? Wasting_my_time_here
United States -
What about creating a discussion forum for everyone to debate issues which would otherwise clog up the guestbook? I know there are dozens of theological discussion groups out there but it seems that there could be some good debates judging by the past entries in the guestbook.
"However, you seem to forget that God is the One Who determines when a person will die, and if He allowed the young boy to die in that state, the implication is that he never would have changed in heart anyway."
Just out of interest - are you a Calvinist Godsword? Pete
UK -
Copying and pasting 50-page articles and already-debunked misconceptions instead of responding to rebuttal points from immediately prior arguments is so passe, Robert. Especially when you didn't even add a single comment of your own to them. Try not to do it again. Thanks in advance. WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
NYC, NY United States - America is a nation in distress because we've lost our Faith!
Nonsense. If anything, the current problems we're facing arise out of too much faith. Ever read about a school shooting before the pledge and money were illicitly changed to contain references to the Christian God? ;) America was founded by Christians on Christian doctrines as a Christian nation!
Nonsense. Let's see what the unanimously-approved by the Senate Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 has to say: "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." Interesting, huh?
Additionally, as crazyfingers on the Infidels forum is fond of asking, show me where in the Bible you can find...
Representative democracy
Freedom of religion
Separation of powers
Habeus corpus
Freedom of speech
Free press
The right of the people to peaceably assemble
Protection from unreasonable search and seizure
Trial by jury
Bicameral legislation
Limited executive power
Etc.
I could quote an endless stream of verses supporting the exact opposite of many of these, though.
Heck, around 4-5 of the commandments are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. The last (coveting) is hilariously ridiculous for a capitalist nation to display, while the the rest are either widespread across human culture (and similar to ones in earlier moral systems) or unenforceable. George Washington said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without GOD and The Bible!"
Nonsense. Among all of Washington's writings, this quote, among many, many others, has never been confirmed by any scholar. Amazing how it shows up, of all places, in the hands of exactly those people who have a history of putting words in others' mouths (starting with the founder of their religion), isn't it? We need to get back to our Biblical roots.
Nonsense. Some of our ancestors came to the US to escape them, in fact. Divine right of kings, stoning disobedient offspring, burning witches at the stake, totalitarian intermingling of church and state, and such are not very conducive to the modern society the Founding Fathers hoped to create.
And Robert, posting graphic pictures of miscarriages and late-term embryos euphanized for terminal and grotesque birth defects that could have killed both mom and child otherwise, in an argument about elective abortion, is a bit disingenuous. Do let us know when you have something to offer aside from the standard Religious Reich propaganda, would you? Kthxbye. WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
NYC, United States -
"Winace....You are a genious!"
And there you have it, Winace. :) Godsword
United States -
Bud,
Watch your language - you will be much the better for doing so, and we won't have to suffer so much. But I can see I have no hope in debating you, Bud, since you are obviously so much weiser than I. Godsword
United States -
America is a nation in distress because we've lost our Faith! Inverted US Flag
America was founded by Christians on Christian doctrines as a Christian nation!
George Washington said, "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without GOD and The Bible!"
We need to get back to our Biblical roots. Find out how:
BRO' BOB'S REPENT USA! BRO' BOB'S REPENT USA!
Saint Bro' Bob (edited by WinAce
to change large remote-loaded image into link)(Webpage) <robertbaral@yahoo.co.in>
United States -
WinAce, I cant tell you how much I enjoy every issue of Fundies Say The Darndest Things.
You are a genious!
Thank you for the laughs, this has been a nice Hanukkah gift. Yahweh (from JREF)
United States -
This is a very funny site. PhantomLlama
United States -
Did I ask for a reply dickhead.
Which God do you intend to thank?
Like every other weak minded simpleton, the only true one.
But concerning Hos you do have to admit that Ho's are by nature of their trade less then above board. They lie for a living in both respects. I’m sure 2k yrs ago they had the same qualities. You will also have to admit or apologize for the fact that a very common encounter between men of the cloth and Ho's is a blow job in the motel 6. Now why you would be aghast at the very thought of Jesus copping head in a cave it seems to me a perfectly reasonable assumption why a man of the cloth keeps a Ho around. Jesus probably liked head. In this respect the Second Coming was probably digested and you all should be waiting for the 493rd.
Bud
United States -
Excellent site! Kagrol
United States -
Bud,
I am sure people of your character and humor are a unique lot. And I thank God for that. Godsword
United States -
Just a quick word to the Ho readers of this guest book.
Um how to put this
How about
Dear Ho's
Please be more like the ho's Jesus was into.
Man that guy really loved Ho's
Always saving people but especially you Ho's
The last person to see him alive was one of you Ho's
I know the Ho code of ethics forbids lying and as such the resurrection is a fact. Why? because some ho said so.
No ho has ever lied about doing a trick in a dark place so thanks Ho's on behalf of us Christians for telling the truth and for swallowing the evidence
Bud
United you say -
I've been through a good portion of FStDT (as much as my brain could handle) and the majority of the rest of the site and I'm impressed; you've encouraged me to get involved in some of the forums listed. Happy collecting. ;o Sean <AMoonlitDreamer@hotmail.com>
Naples, FL United States -
Nice job on the "Fundies say the Darndest Things" lists. Nike(Webpage)
United States -
Those images are great WinAce, hilarious and are probably going to be useful. Cheers.
For those who may not know this,
"Socrates" on TheologyWeb is none other than "Answers in Genesis" hatchet-boy Jon Sarfati.
Great Ambassador for Christ, isn't he? SLP <huxter4441@aol.com>
United States -
Remember Sola Gratia's "loving" attitudes towards homosexuals? here is a link to some of his other
posts...which are worth looking at if you want a laugh! Joe
uk -
My friends and I consistantly enjoy your collection of quotes. Every one I read makes me that much glader I'm an atheist (and, sadly, that much more depressed that there are still many, many, stupid people in the world who can somehow screw my life up in one way or another...). Good quotes, though!
O.o What? Ihmhi <i_have_mental_health_issues@yahoo.com>
Newark, NJ United States -
I see that there is something of a debate going on in here, I would rather just sign the guestbook though. It is a guestbook after all, aren't there some debate forums which might work a bit better? Anyway, I really enjoyed the site Winace. I always wondered where you got all the clever little pictures you posted in the forums. So, I particularly enjoyed the image gallery, the fundies say the darndest things, and most of all, the arguments with J.P. Holding and him resorting to attacking your age. All in all, just an entertaining site.
P.S. Finally found out where "All your base are belong to us" came from because of this site. I had always wondered what it was from since the first time I saw it until now. Novadistortion <ice0777@yahoo.com>
United States -
Pete,
It doesn't seem that way. Here is a scenario - a 12 year old girl is being abused in the most horrific ways by her stepfather, and because she cannot take any more of it she commits suicide. She chose not to follow God and so goes to hell. Meanwhile, her stepfather abuses kids for another decade, but then becomes a Christian. When he dies he goes to heaven.
If, as is generally likely for kids of that age, she had reached the "age of accountability" (meaning, she had a conscience), then, yes, if she had not accepted Jesus as her Saviour, she would go to Hell when she died. She would have suffered unjustly from her stepfather, but she still would have had an unrepentant and rebelious heart. And, if her stepfather truly repented of his sins, and truly accepted Jesus as his Saviour, then he is not the same person in heart as he was when he committed those sins - he is "a new creature in Christ", and the punishment he was justly due was placed upon Jesus on the cross. The difference is, the punishment the girl was due she chose to pay herself; the stepfather accepted the free gift of life, and so his punishment was paid by Jesus. Justice is maintained, and mercy is extended and received (though only by those willing to acknowledge their need, and from Whom it must be obtained).
Here's another scenario - a man is in a rush to get somewhere and drives dangerously and breaks the speed limit, but loses control on a bend and crashes into a boy on a bicycle and hits a lamppost, killing them both. Just 24 hours ago the boy had reached the "age of accountability" where he could sin knowingly, and he hadn't accepted Jesus as his saviour. He went to hell. The man driving the car was a Christian and so went to heaven.
Correct. However, you seem to forget that God is the One Who determines when a person will die, and if He allowed the young boy to die in that state, the implication is that he never would have changed in heart anyway. The man, though sinning by driving dangerously, is still saved for eternity, since in his heart he is willing to accept Jesus' offer of salvation. He does lose some rewards, though. Again, justice and mercy are maintained. Godsword
United States -
Pete, Cancer, viruses, mosquitos, etc, as well as earthquakes and other natural disasters, supposedly didn't exist before the fall. If you are not a YEC, then I don't know how all these could be included....
There was no death or suffering before the Fall. If an earthquake or "natural disaster" could have occurred which did not result in any death or suffering, then YEC allows that earthquakes and "natural disasters" might have occurred before the Fall. There would have been no cancer, no viruses, and probably no mosquitoes, etc., before the Fall, although if mosquitoes had a different means of subsistence (perhaps living off some flowers or fruit), they might have been around. What's your point? Godsword
United States -
Cancer, viruses, mosquitos etc as well as earthquakes and other natural disasters, supposedly didn't exist before the fall. If you are not a YEC, then I don't know how all these could be included... Pete
UK -
God who loves can forgive wrongs but why should man??
Does an existant creator include cancer in the grand plan for any other reason than to have suffering without cause?
If any here were the creator would they include it???????
Not me thats for sure, but I guess Im just Auto parts
United States -
It doesn't seem that way. Here is a scenario - a 12 year old girl is being abused in the most horrific ways by her stepfather, and because she cannot take any more of it she commits suicide. She chose not to follow God and so goes to hell. Meanwhile, her stepfather abuses kids for another decade, but then becomes a Christian. When he dies he goes to heaven.
Heres another scenario - a man is in a rush to get somewhere and drives dangerously and breaks the speed limit, but loses control on a bend and crashes into a boy on a bicycle and hits a lamppost, killing them both. Just 24 hours ago the boy had reached the "age of accountability" where he could sin knowingly, and he hadn't accepted Jesus as his saviour. He went to hell. The man driving the car was a Christian and so went to heaven.
This is why I do not accept the "conventional" Christian beliefs as however I look at it, it doesn't seem like justice. Pete
UK -
Pete,
The love of God does not negate the justice of God. You apparently would be of the mind that it would be a fair judge who ignored all wrongs, and meted out no just punishment ("You stole? Never mind. And you? You murdered? No problem, you're free to go.") and this is where (true) Christianity differs completely from all other religions and ethical systems - it testifies to a God Who loves, and can forgive wrongs, yet MAINTAINS justice, since the punishment is not swept under the rug and ignored. Godsword
United States -
Everyone who laughs at this page will be burnt to a crisp in hell...for all eternity! God is a loving God but love for God can mean both guaranteeing salvation for the elect such as me, and love to God can also mean burning children who read Harry Potter etc for all eternity!!!!!
Seriously, great site. Pete
UK -
This is wonderful. I finally finished reading - then looked up and thought `Whoa - there are months and months of these!' What a happy feeling. Captain Anonymous <nobody@nowhere.com>
melbourne, australia -
I love this site!! I just wish I could get an email every time it's updated. Keep up the good work all you wacko fundies out there. justwonder <justwonderwhy2002@yahoo.com>
VA United States -
Perry, you do one hell of a good job describing yourself with this quote:
We are not on the same side. Seems to me your another ass who thinks there is commonality of cause and not of belief. Most Atheists and agnostics Ive meet are self absorbed social inadequates with the wholly unwarranted belief they matter.
I'd like to see evidence myself, but there cannot be proof. Crosis
USA -
HO hum
Evidence = something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter
Evidences is the plural as necessitated by the plethora of shite associated with the subject in question
Proven being the said tribunal has in fact ascertained the truth through the appropriate scientific examination.
So when oh when oh when do I get my most meager piece of proof.
Um side step
Crosis
Listen dear
We are not on the same side. Seems to me your another ass who thinks there is commonality of cause and not of belief. Most Atheists and agnostics Ive meet are self absorbed social inadequates with the wholly unwarranted belief they matter.
There are four of the above five Im sure you will find you fit.
Now be a good girl and fuck off and let dear Godsword answer my little request Perry Ellis
United States -
Actually, evidence for miraculous healings need not make us accept all the other, empirically contradicted god baggage. While it would be certainly good reason to accept that some intelligent and powerful entity had used action-at-a-distance to heal a man if he suddenly and visibly regrew a limb immediately after praying to a specific god at its temple, any conclusions we drew would have to line up with *all* the other evidence too. That means that gods described as creating a flat world (and similar) would be out. And given how reality works, it would be a more prudent conclusion to assume that this entity was powerful, but not actually all-powerful. That, or capricious... or egotistical. WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States -
Let’s take a look at some of that page.
First, the line at the end of the ‘wedding ring’ blurb;
“True story.”
Right. Along with ‘The cheque is in the mail’, ‘Of course I’ll still respect you in the morning’, and ‘Don’t worry, I’ll pull out before then’. What evidence do we have that this is a true story, other than the statement of the person telling it? (I presume that you are Douglas?)
“…maybe your wife's swearing prevented the two of you from finding the earring…”
You’re not serious, are you?
“Bebbo: What sin have babies who die of disease, famine, abuse, or neglect committed?
None. But they are born with an inherited sinful nature, and are still subject to the corruption of this world.”
Great religion you’ve got there. Treat everyone as bad from the get-go.
“God is not bound by His Own rules… ”
Like I said, he’s a prick.
I’m not going to bother with the rest of the depressing drivel on that page. It’s quite plain that you think your god can commit the most horrific acts of cruelty against the innocent, but that’s okay because god has the right to do that, and is still worthy of worship.
All it’s worthy of is a kick in the nuts.
The Rat <whaler@sympatico.ca>
Toronto, Canada - It was a hypothetical, and the argument did not depend on its ever having been observed, or on their being any evidence that it had. It was intended to point out the silliness of my opponent's (your?) argument.
What's silly about wanting real evidence?
Either his experiences were clear and "verifiable" evidences of the existence of God, or he was completely loony, or a compulsive liar.
You're trying to put words into my mouth by presenting an incomplete list of possibilities.
Perhaps the experiences were misinterpreted, the way some people see satellites and think they are seeing alien spacecraft. The Rat <whaler@sympatico.ca>
Toronto, Canada -
The Fool just thought he'd recommend another webboard to get your quotes from.
Thanks. TheFool
NY United States - The Rat: Cool, but that has never been observed. And don't try giving me bible stories, I want verifiable evidence.
You misunderstand. It was a hypothetical, and the argument did not depend on its ever having been observed, or on their being any evidence that it had. It was intended to point out the silliness of my opponent's (your?) argument.
Me: ...you will find an explanation for why there is suffering in the world...
The Rat: Simple, nature ain't always pretty, and there is no god to stop it. It's up to us.
You haven't read through the link I provided, including the link at the link, have you? Are you familiar with George Mueller? Either his experiences were clear and "verifiable" evidences of the existence of God, or he was completely loony, or a compulsive liar. I imagine you would prefer to believe either of the latter two, and will choose to do so. Godsword
United States -
Best site ever man. The fundies say the darndest things is hysterical. Eru <I.Bortner@comcast.net>
Seattle, WA United States - ...if someone prayed to God to be healed of a crippled leg, and they were instantaneously healed...
Cool, but that has never been observed. And don't try giving me bible stories, I want verifiable evidence.
...you will find an explanation for why there is suffering in the world...
Simple, nature ain't always pretty, and there is no god to stop it. It's up to us.
Or, god's a prick. The Rat <whaler@sympatico.ca>
Toronto, Canada -
BTW, WinAce, you may want to fix one of Godsword's italic tags. Crosis
United States -
Heck, what are the odds I'd receive a junk fax advertisement for a new security system (fax advertisements I've *never* received before) the exact moment I got home from a place where I lost my keys? If I had a prior belief in the home security gods, I'd naturally attribute that to those. Otherwise, statistically guaranteed weird coincidences are not an argument for anything except the human capacity for self-delusion. WinAce <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY USA -
There is a difference between those (though I agree that The Rat's answer is missing the point). If an amputee has spontaneously healed by prayer, that'd be pretty impressive evidence that there is a God. Finding a lost ring isn't - if you keep looking, odds are pretty good you'll find it anyway. Even overlooking it twice, it's not that unlikely that a third try will find it - I've had much the same thing happen to me (without asking for divine intervention, by the way).
Even the timing is hardly evidence - remarkably improbable things do happen from time to time (I believe the technical term is the Law of Very Large Numbers - given a million trials, on average, you would expect that something that is literally "one in a million" would happen once, and I doubt that finding the ring within a second of finishing such a request is even that unlikely, just by chance). Now, if it demonstrably worked every time you tried it, you might be on to something.
Marc-1961's reply at the link is quite accurate. Crosis
United States -
The Rat,
You aren't thinking too deeply, are you? If your logic in this case held, then it would also hold if someone prayed to God to be healed of a crippled leg, and they were instantaneously healed - no doubt your rebuttal would be something like, "There are children starving all around the world, dying in wars, being abused and killed by their own parents, and your god has nothing better to do than heal a stupid leg?" By the way, read through the ARN thread I linked to - you will find an explanation for why there is suffering in the world, and why God nevertheless does answer prayer. Of course, according to you, if God does not answer ALL requests as requested, He can't exist, can He? Your logic is unanswerable, and rather ridiculous. Godsword
United States -
C'mon Godsword, that's on about a kindergarten level of evidence. Prayers found a lost ring? There are children starving all around the world, dying in wars, being abused and killed by their own parents, and your god has nothing better to do than hunt around on the grass for a ring?!
Truly, madly, deeply,... pathetic. The Rat <whaler@sympatico.ca>
Toronto, Canada -
Absolutely fan-bloody-tastic little site here, chap.
Keep up the good work.
Joey Sarajevo <scatmanjohn1@hotmail.com>
Cardiff, United Kingdom - Answers to Prayer. Godsword
United States -
Louis, give it a rest. Seriously, you're even more immature than and nearly as unintelligent as the typical fundie, and in all honesty I'd bet Godsword, fundie though he is, could debate circles around you.
Generally, when people on your side are telling you you're an idiot, it's a good idea to listen. Crosis
United States -
Louis,
Coming from someone who thinks there is such a thing as "proven evidence", your assessment of my IQ carries about as much weight as Bill Clinton claiming to be a man of integrity. Godsword
United States -
I rest my case dear readers.
Anyone else think the 160 IQ was an much sought assurance from mother? Louis Vitton
United States -
Winace,
Looks like you are getting more and more samples for a "Fundamentalist Atheists Say the Darndest Things" segment. "Proven evidence" - sheeeesh. And evolutionists act so superior to Creationists. Godsword
United States -
You ask Godsword for a single piece of proven evidence for the existence of any , yes readers any form of supernaturality and look what happens. It is just one piece of proof that something, even the most menial of claimed miracles was actual and he dances and dances and dances and dances and dances like so many fools before him.
Just to prove me right dear readers watch his response dolce loves Cabana
United States -
Winace,
Your most recent post was such an example of half-truths, misunderstandings, false assertions, and evading of questions, that I wonder whether you really understand what it is you are arguing against. I also wonder at how, in one breath, you can take a fair amount of time to present your case, then in another seek to prevent me from making mine. Oh well, it's your Guestbook. Enjoy. Godsword
United States -
Again, you seem to be confused. The very basis of that article assumes that the 'Mivart Fallacy' holds, and modern multipart systems (where all components are obligatory for current function) have no possible evolutionary precursors.
This is the notion of 'irreducible complexity', even if you subtly call it something like 'rampant idiocy' instead. It's also been debunked, theoretically, experimentally and observationally, including several times by 'niiicholas' on the very ARN board. There are plausible ways for multipart, obligatory-functioning systems to evolve, there are systems that meet those criteria (such as the PCP degradation pathway) that demonstrably evolved in the past 100 years, and everything from the immune system to eye proteins show definite, telltale signs of evolutionary change and the key mutations that molded them.
The rest of your post was based on a mess of unsupported assertions and strawmen that themselves depend on that faulty logic, so they need not be addressed independently of it.
Moreover, the irreducibility of a system, even if it were a valid argument, would not affect common descent one iota. At most, it tells us the system itself didn't evolve in steps. This tells us nothing about the organism at large, much like finding the Niagara Falls was intentionally designed by Stone-Agers tells us nothing about the earth itself.
And for assorted technical reasons, if common descent is established on the basis of independent evidence, which it has been, IC is debunked for yet another reason. Once organisms are shown to be related, if they have only some parts of IC systems shared between them, this demonstrates that their common ancestor had only parts of the whole and conclusively debunks the notion all components were required at once.
If leeches and humans share only a few parts of the blood circulation system, yet both are descended from the same creature and utilize those in different ways, it stands to reason that the human ancestor did not require the complete set of human blood proteins and such to comfortably get by.
With enough sequence comparison between extant species, we can even reconstruct the precise order in which specific genes made their appearance, much like the double-nested hierarchy of life correlates impressively with the fossil record, and lets us successfully predict which anatomical features historically appeared before others from comparison of modern organisms alone.
As such, common descent gives us an indispensable set of tools for investigating the origin of complex systems. In fact, pretty much the only set of tools available, since alternative explanations are remarkably nebulous and sterile in the restrictions they pose on what types of evidence we can find (or won't), what order components of a system could arise in, how they would be implemented, and so on.
Thus, since you reject it, asking for 'evidence' that any particular complex system, whose origin is deep in the past, evolved is disingenuous, much like asking for evidence of the outer planets is disingenuous if you reject optics and the telescopes that are built on its main, well-established principles.
I suppose, though, for a good laugh, you could explain just what you would consider 'evidence' that the blood pressure regulation system (or any other) evolved. "Proof that God didn't do it" probably need not apply. Something like "does it look like a gene duplication or other characteristic mutation, like a retrotransposon, was responsible for part of this system?" would be much better, but then you would have to admit there's evidence, and we can't have that...
P.S. Again, I strongly suggest you take this to TheologyWeb, Internet Infidels or another forum instead of continuing to clog up this guestbook. WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States - Which part of my statement about the "Mivart Fallacy" didn't you understand? A system's current irreducibility tells you virtually nothing about its past history.
And which part of my question,
"That is, HOW would evolution produce what is described, particularly the generation and reception of key proteins and/or hormones, when UNTIL the entire system was in place, none of those things would provide any apparent benefit?"
has you so confused? You seem to be unable to distinguish between this question (which is what the author I referred to brought up), and the issue of "irreducible complexity". The question does not raise the issue of irreducible complexity, but merely asks for evolutionists to provide some reasonable explanation for HOW the (in my words) "generation and reception of key proteins and/or hormones" in at least two separate (physically and functionally) bodily systems could be (in your words) "coopted" for a mutual function (in this case, a very specific system is being considered). What is the conceivable benefit to one area having developed the ability to receive (or generate) said proteins/hormones, before the other area develops them (or the ability to receive them), or before there is any related need between the two areas? Perhaps your confusion regarding this distinction is related to your confusion regarding cities as examples of irreducibly complex systems (or of your failure to note that cities are "intelligently designed").
Functions become coopted, components co-evolve with each other, things that were only beneficial become mission-critical, scaffolding is removed, and so on.
What is the scientific evidence that this has ever occurred in biological systems? Do you realize just how highly improbable such a scheme is, even if theoretically possible? Do you realize that even with the proposed age of the Universe (say, 15 billion years) (let alone the proposed length of time life has existed [say, 5 billion years]), the proposed evolutionary "pathways" have far too little time to have done what they theoretically did? The way evolutionists present it, almost as soon as even a very, very minor benefit occurrred, it would be selected for, and would not only survive, but eventually (quickly) thrive. That's a lot of very minute, very "iffy", benefits having an incredibly powerful effect on a large-scale... "Ooooo, look at that - that precursor to a bird just had a random mutation which caused it's scales to change imperceptibly, with no noticeable outward difference; but by golly, there is a really, really tiny advantage for it, and we all know that this means that that mutation will eventually be found throughout the population; and even more eventually, it will combine with other mutations to transform scales into a complex system of hooks and latches, even though there was the MAJOR hurdle of jumping from a non-hook system to a hook-and-latch system, where until the hook-and-latch system was in place, there was absolutely no need for hook-like 'appendages'. But since we know evolution is true, it must have happened this way."
You also missed the point of my analogy. If your logic, that IC indicates no possibility of simpler precursors, held at all, it would hold for any IC system--from beehives, to stone arches, to multi-part antibiotic resistance systems in bacteria, to human cities.
No, I didn't miss your point. I simply noticed that it was irrelevant to mine, since I had not brought up "irreducible complexity". I also noticed that human cities are not examples of "irreducible complexity", contrary to your analogy. And, note the word, "complexity", in the phrase, "irreducible complexity" - stone arches (at least, ones that might be found in Nature), are not "complex" (there might be ONE spanning stone...perhaps two or three, if one stretches one's imagination, although even with a few more, the system is perhaps not "complex" enough to qualify as "irreducibly complex"; and this is ignoring the fact that natural selection does not work on stone arches). As far as beehives and "multi-part antibiotic resistance systems in bacteria" are concerned, I'm not sure - but so far you are batting .000 in identifying IC systems, so I'll hold off accepting their ICness. Godsword
United States -
Love the site! Keep up the good work, I laughed my ass off on some of these pages! Meatros <ossificans@yahoo.com>
Fairfax, Va United States -
Which part of my statement about the "Mivart Fallacy" didn't you understand? A system's current irreducibility tells you virtually nothing about its past history. Functions become coopted, components co-evolve with each other, things that were only beneficial become mission-critical, scaffolding is removed, and so on.
You also missed the point of my analogy. If your logic, that IC indicates no possibility of simpler precursors, held at all, it would hold for any IC system--from beehives, to stone arches, to multi-part antibiotic resistance systems in bacteria, to human cities. But none of these systems must poof into existence spontaneously, because while in their modern forms they require X amount of components and no less, that need not hold true for simpler precursors.
If you want to continue this discussion, I suggest you take it to TheologyWeb or the Internet Infidels board. WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States -
Winace,
I'm afraid you overlook the most pertinent point of the article (not to mention that you accuse it of something of which it is not guilty). That is, HOW would evolution produce what is described, particularly the generation and reception of key proteins and/or hormones, when UNTIL the entire system was in place, none of those things would provide any apparent benefit?
And, you commit one of the most common errors amongst evolutionists, when you point to something that has been INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED (quite obviously and "testably") - namely, modern cities and their "key components" - as evidence of something that has "evolved". Also, those "key components" happen to be "key" at whatever size a city is - very small cities still have a need for suitable government; they still have a need for someone to "keep the peace" (unless there is no crime); they still have a need for someone to put out fires when fires break out. And all those things come into existence through "intelligent design". Plus, it is not true that the entire city would collapse (cease to function) if just one of those "key components" failed... thus, a modern city is not an example of "irreducible complexity", since its "key components" can most certainly be "reduced", and since they are not necessarily essential to the existence/functioning of the city (meaning, a city could still "survive", though suffering, if one of those "key components" failed). Godsword
United States -
No biggie. Besides, guestbooks aren't really for extended discussions anyway. I'd prefer a venue such as Infidels or TheologyWeb for a true discussion, as they're much more polished for that type of thing than this simple script.
Also, the link you posted commits the "Mivart Fallacy" -- assuming that all components of a modern system are necessary for its evolutionary precursors. This is not the case. The circulatory requirements of a primitive worm and a modern human, for example, are drastically different, and additional components only become required as the demands of the system at large become higher.
If the logic of that article was solid, modern cities like New York would have needed to spontaneously assemble in their modern form, because if you remove any of their key components (police dept., fire dept., municipal government, etc.) all hell breaks loose. In the past, though, those functions may have been only beneficial and welcome additions, not mission-critical components. As the cities developed around the new components, they became increasingly locked in until they're a necessity.
Irreducibility only tells us that a modern system requires X number of minimal components for its current function. It yields no real insights into its actual history. WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States -
Winace,
As I mentioned earlier, my computer has been really, really slow, so I can't devote much time or effort to responding to your post (though I'd really, really like to). However, I offer the following for the consideration of all evolutionists here:
Macroevolution Cannot Stand Up to Gravity . Godsword
United States -
You really shouldn't trust sensationalistic headlines from a source (CNN) that isn't even particularly geared to science reporting. In addition, the Cairnes-Smith hypothesis has been around for quite a while, but I don't see you quoting that as evidence of the divine inspiration of Abrahamic religions.
But, just for fun, you might want to try answering these questions:
(1) How is demonstrating yet another possible pathway for abiogenesis in any way an aid to religion?
This is the funniest. If you'd read the entire article, as opposed to the blurb someone wrote, you'd see it related to a naturalistic origin of life. In fact, it has little to no bearing on the type of creationism you espouse, which has modern man being magically fashioned from the dirt, as opposed to a primordial cell that evolves into the modern biosphere later on.
(2) How does Montmorillonite relate to the generic mud listed in the Bible?
In addition, the 'fashioning from clay' mythical archetype isn't really that rare or far-fetched. In the ancient world, clay was a durable, excellent building material, one that could be used to create rather complex sculptures and other works. It was especially important in the Middle East, as the natives' lifestyle would be impossible without it, and they used clay/mud for everything from buildings to jars to statues.
Since humans create gods in their own image, ANE tribes invented non-omnipotent gods that initially fashioned man out of clay, then breathed in life via magic, much as they, themselves would create if given deity powers. That hypothesis seemed perfectly reasonable given what they knew about the world.
"Most of the ancient Middle Eastern [creation] stories, including the Priestly account [of Genesis], describe humans being made out of clay, earth, and sometimes of divine blood or a mixture of blood and soil... In Sumerian mythology, the first people were fashioned from clay by Enki, who then decreed their fate. Another example of Mesopotamian tradition referring to the creation of man from clay is recorded in the Epic of Gilgamesh." - Of Mud and the Divine: Creation Myths of the Middle East
Other, non-Abrahamic creation myths also mention clay, and I would bet that the material and mechanisms in origin stories correlate rather well with the building materials and lifestyles of the people who write them.
Of course, the Bible never could be used to predict such a finding beforehand. In fact, the most natural reading of Genesis would seem to be contradicted by pretty much every scientific observation we've found in the last 200 years. In addition, origin of life scenarios are by necessity speculative given the paucity of molecular evidence from 3 billion years ago, and everything from iron sulfides to esoteric clay to protein sheres to charged plasma globs could have taken a part in generating it. And that doesn't even take into account other fields of science, whose discoveries are legion!
That leaves a lot of room for cherry-picking any verse that carries any remote similarity with a finding of modern science, no matter how superficial, and yelling 'prophecy! Har har'. Luckily, like the Bible codes, this works equally well with any other book, or even uninspired experimental controls like Moby Dick, making it a surprisingly weak apologetic... WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States -
An obviously purely coincidental finding:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Science backed up religion this week in a study that suggests life may have indeed sprung from clay -- just as many faiths teach.
(Note - Technically, it is only the Book of Genesis, and "religions" [Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and perhaps Islam] founded on its at least partial truthfulness, which make this claim.) Godsword
United States -
Fashion Critic, as someone who's on your side in this argument, I'll tell you right now, you're not worth arguing with. You're exactly the sort that Godsword refers to as "Atheist Fundies", and with good cause. Crosis
United States -
Tsk, tsk, yourself, Quiet Fond (sounds Chinese). I'll consider providing some "evidence" here in this Guestbook just as soon as you recognize that I and Crosis have carefully and correctly pointed out that your requirement of "proven evidence" is, well, absurd, since there is no such thing as "proof" in science. Until then, I suggest you devote your energies to your apparently chosen field, namely "Fashion evangelism"; you might also purchase a book titled, "Dismantling Evolution (Building the Case for Intelligent Design)", authored by Ralph O. Muncaster, and perhaps read it. Godsword
United States -
Damn it! I used to have some time to browse the net to my leisure. Not anymore. I just _have to_ read FStDT-archives! Curses! Is there a FStDt-Anonymous Club? Advocatus Diaboli
FundieFreeFinland(almost) -
Tsk Tsk Godsword, such monumental side stepping.
My little piece of proven evidence if you please.
Quiet fond of Hugo Boss
United States -
Well, I *did* include a long series of posts by Consistent Thinker (a non-theist) which included such hits as (paraphrased) "The Jews control Hollywood and are good at special effects, so those Holocaust photos could be staged". Does that count? ;) WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States -
Fashion Hater,
"Stay down"? I'm afraid not. Actually, my computer has been exceedingly slow, so I limit myself to short and infrequent posts, generally, as I have the time.
And, why in the world should I start a website dedicated to "Fundamentalist Atheists Say the Darndest Things", when Winace already has a more general site dedicated to "Fundies Say the Darndest Things", and he already has everything set up? Again, "fair is fair", and "truth in advertising", are not mutually exclusive. Godsword
United States -
Ahh ,me thinks little Godsword knows when to stay down.
Good choice dont you think dear readers
I also hate old navy
United States -
the apostate cricket:
"After all, if it's there, surely you won't mind showing us rather than simply telling us. I mean, fair is fair."
Believe me, it's there. Idiocy is found in every segment of the population. Odds are, most of the stuff won't be as mind-numbingly idiotic as what you see from the religious fundies, but atheists are just as capable of bad arguments as theists. The difference is that they usually don't have to resort to them to defend their position. Crosis
United States - Godsword: I'm going to call your bluff and suggest that you start and maintain a "Fundamentalist Atheists Say the Darnedest Things" Web site. Once you've done so, please let us know the URL, so that we can see for ourselves this "absolute treasure trove of shoddy logic and simplistic reasoning." After all, if it's there, surely you won't mind showing us rather than simply telling us. I mean, fair is fair. the apostate cricket
earth -
Where'd Bullwinkle and Saul B get to? Godsword
United States -
You need to organize this page better. I love the sig line prize quote because I know that guy and he is in all technical terms catholic. Dave K <anime_nut@mindless.com>
Hamilton, ON Canada -
I would appreciate it if Winace would give equal time to the opposing group - namely, the "Fundamentalist Atheists". There happens to be an absolute treasure trove of shoddy logic and simplistic reasoning over at Internet Infidels, courtesy of a large majority of the atheists there. I mean, fair is fair. Godsword
United States -
Okay WinAce, since you say it "= good":
"Your list of quotes is idiotic."
As in, well done for compiling such an exhaustive list of idiocy.
Other than that, great site! But you need to get your anus fixed in your candiru reference.
Cheers mate!
Oolon
Oolon Colluphid(Webpage) <darwinsterrier@hotmail.com>
Winchester, England -
Posting copyrighted articles in their entirety to advance a point is generally a bad debating tactic. Where applicable, use short excerpts and links instead. I've taken the liberty of editing your post to avoid legal action by CNN...
In addition, there are far more appropriate venues to debate the issues pertaining to homosexuality than a (predominantly) satirical website's guestbook.
Monday, October 20, 2003 Posted: 10:06 AM EDT (1406 GMT)
LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- Sexual identity is wired into the genes, which discounts the concept that homosexuality and transgender sexuality are a choice, California researchers reported on Monday...
{snip}
[Please don't post lengthy articles in this guestbook
in their entirety, but especially those that have a specific notice to
the effect of "This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten,
or redistributed." Thanks in advance. - WinAce]
We TOLD you homosexuality was genetic!! (edited by WinAce
to remove copyright-violating material)
United States -
After reading “Fundies Say the Darndest Things!” I understand why the USA is the way it is. Michael Behe may have been right, if these people lose one more brain cell they will cease to function proving the theory “irreducibly complex” correct. I wish there was a god that I could pray to, I’m a scared. Shocked Beyond Belief
NJ United States -
One great site! I haven't had time to do more than superficially scan most of the stuff here, but I will keep returning. An endless supply of guffaws! The Rat <whaler@sympatico.ca>
Toronto, ON Canada -
Godsword:
Intelligent design is certainly possible - there's no way to know. (Frankly, I'm not entirely convinced by current theories on abiogenesis. That doesn't necessarily imply some form of creation - merely that our current understanding is insufficient. My belief is that there was a creator, but I realize that it can't be demonstrated to be the case.) But there's more than enough evidence for an old earth to suggest that a literal reading of Genesis is wildly inaccurate. Every piece of evidence for a young earth that I've ever seen is based on bad math - usually an extrapolation of a current estimate of some rate that assumes the number remained constant throughout history (which is in some cases obviously false, but usually merely very unlikely).
Strong evidence of a young earth would be evidence for a creator, obviously - it wouldn't leave enough time for evolution to occur. Crosis
USA -
Crosis,
So, you are following me in my side-stepping and transferring of onus? Do you suppose we could become a Vaudeville team? (I will focus on transferring onus, and you can perfect your side-stepping.)
Anyway, I will trust that your correction of Gap Hater leaves my IQ intact, at whatever level it actually is, in spite of Hater's attempted slight. Thanks.
Now, I must ask, what would you consider to be sufficient evidence of Creation (and thus, by implication, of a Creator)? What would it take to convince you that Creation was, if not proven, at least likely as an explanation? Godsword
United States -
Odd, the rest of my entry doesn't seem to have appeared.
I have yet to see a single piece of evidence for creation that holds up under scrutiny.
On the other hand, Gap Hater, Godsword is correct that there is no such thing as scientific proof. For all practical purposes, some theories are considered proven because everything predicted by the theory is accurate and there's nothing we've seen that would suggest another theory. Crosis
USA -
Godsword: By the way, the evidence is against evolution, and for Creation.
If by Crosis
USA -
""Proven"? Does the Hater not know that there is no such thing as "proof" outside of mathematics and logic? Shall I refer him or her to "Goliath" (or was it "CardinalMan"?) from the infamous "Internet Infidels" site for a sound lecture on the matter? Or shall I extend some mercy to him or her, and simply say, "I can provide evidence; 'proof' is too subjective"?
= 1 side step with an attempted at transfer of onus
Once again, there is no such thing as "proof" in science, only in mathematics and logic. (And once again, I must point out that I am only repeating what some esteemed atheistic scientists from the feared and fearsome Internet Infidels site vigorously claimed.)
=Side step #2 albeit a repeat with another transfer of onus directed toward a third non involved party
Just like how evolutionists do when confronted with the need for "scientific proof" of macroevolution? The irony is simply too delicious.
=Side step #3
Well dear people the 160 IQ is shining through dont you think
One single piece of proof for the existence of any form of the supernatural is all I ask for
Now dear readers watch the side stepping, claims of non requirement and transfer of onus.
I hate the Gap
United States - Gap Hater: "So the evidence is for creation, eh?"
Yes indeedy.
Gap Hater: "Well, the most intrinsic and vital part of any claim for evidence of creation is evidence of the creator."
A novel twist on what is essentially the same thing. That is, evidence of creation qualifies as "evidence of the creator".
Gap Hater: "I challenge the writer to come up with one single piece of proven evidence that this creator exists."
"Proven"? Does the Hater not know that there is no such thing as "proof" outside of mathematics and logic? Shall I refer him or her to "Goliath" (or was it "CardinalMan"?) from the infamous "Internet Infidels" site for a sound lecture on the matter? Or shall I extend some mercy to him or her, and simply say, "I can provide evidence; 'proof' is too subjective"?
Gap Hater: "Oh heck, I'm either high on philanthropism or that rail so I will even settle for a single , yes single piece of scientifically proven evidence for any thing supernatural."
Once again, there is no such thing as "proof" in science, only in mathematics and logic. (And once again, I must point out that I am only repeating what some esteemed atheistic scientists from the feared and fearsome Internet Infidels site vigorously claimed.)
Hater: "Now, dear readers, watch the side-stepping, the claims of non-requirement, and attempts to transfer onus."
Just like how evolutionists do when confronted with the need for "scientific proof" of macroevolution? The irony is simply too delicious. Godsword
United States -
You need a Muslims crash the darndest things section
So the evidence is for creation eh
Well the most intrinsic and vital part of any claim for evidence of creation is evidence of the creator
I challenge the writer to come up with one single piece of proven evidence that this creator exists
Oh heck Im either high on philanthropism or that rail so I will even settle for a single , yes single piece of scientifically proven evidence for any thing supernatural.
Now dear readers watch the side stepping, the claims of non requirement and attempts to transfer onus. I hate the Gap
United States -
Crosis,
Me too. But I didn't want to disappoint you by not taking the opportunity you so graciously offered.
By the way, the evidence is against evolution, and for Creation. Godsword
United States -
Saw that one coming a mile and a half away, Godsword. Too bad there's no way to back it up (sure, we're stubborn, but when the vast majority of the evidence backs up the position we're holding, it should take a mountain of evidence to get us to change our minds). Crosis
United States -
Crosis,
I agree. Evolutionists can be so frustrating at times. Godsword
United States -
New update ... so many factual errors, logical fallacies, just plain thick-headed induhviduals ... brain hurting from combination of shock and laughter ...
I'd start replying to some of them but there isn't enough time in a day to even make a dent in that list. Not to mention that it's about as effective as ramming your head into a brick wall repeatedly ... they just don't get it. Crosis
USA -
Hey baby. You need a discussion forum of your own on this site so people don't have to talk smack back and forth in this guestbook :)
Just a thought.
Your pal, LadyShea LadyShea <LadyShea@infidels.org>
United States -
RAPTUREREADY.COM RULES!
YOUR WEBSITE SUCKS!!!!!!! Crofton Nebraska Church(Webpage)
Crofton, Ne United States -
I apologize, I was refering to the quotes page. walkingalone
United States -
oh please stop posting these!!! I'm lauging so hard I'm in danger of losing my job!! Its great! walkingalone
United States -
Northern Christian: WinAce, get a life.
(I'm not speaking for WinAce, just for myself) As a retort, that is truly one the stupidest replies one can make. It's along the same lines as "you're a poopyhead". It's a tacit admission that you cannot form a cogent argument to the contrary, therefore the only thing you are prepared to do is hurl personal insults.
If I was a Christian aka a representative of Christ, I think I would take more care to present myself in a better light. Saul B
United States -
WinAce, get a life. Northern Christian
United States -
king constantine introduced many dogma into christianity around 330 ad to satisfy the pagans and thus "saved" christianity for present day followers. there is an historical accounting of this somewhere. could you help me find it?
I must say that I've enjoyed reading your extensive archives. Whenever I need a laugh, or I need to remind myself why I debate with creationists, your website does the trick.
Keep up the good work.
PS. Jedi Council, Noah's Flood has had some activity lately... Advocatus Diaboli(Webpage) <vagrant@vampirethemasquerade.com>
Eternal Darkness, Finland -
HF-kun: I must say, I find it an honor that even my typo filled sentences are still more logical than anything this site can say.
You must have a very strange definition of "logic".
Even more pathetic how you depend completely on typo filled sentences from the internet to attack a religion.
You don't pay much attention, do you? That's but one section of the website. Not only that, but the reason they're included is not the typos but the mind-numbing stupidity of the content.
Odd how it always turns out that it always describes the accuser better than it fits myself.
The irony is strong with this one. Crosis
United States -
I must say, I find it an honor that even my typo filled sentences are still more logical than anything this site can say. Even more pathetic how you depend completely on typo filled sentences from the internet to attack a religion. Being labeled as a radical and zealot is a new one for me though. Odd how it always turns out that it always describes the accuser better than it fits myself. I never thought common sense was such a rarity on the internet these days. HF-kun
United States -
Just got through the article on unfalsifiable claims and how to deal with them. Very good technical explanation of the reasoning most of us intuitively use without being able to explain it to those who aren't so ... enlightened.
And of course, the new batch of fundie quotes is as mind-boggling as ever. Just when you think they can't possibly get dumber ... Crosis
United States -
You are a credit to the Internet - absolutely brilliant stuff - the best I've ever seen of this type. Please, please, keep this worthwhile website going, for you are REALLY providing a wonderful service to many, many people.
Congratualtions and thanks - your site is well and truly book-mrked on my PC
sincerly'
Jud. Jud (Webpage) <gevans613@aol.com>
Preston, La England - Originally posted by Yiay: I must say, Christians are utter fools.
Ouch, way to broad-brush a bunch of people with ease...
Originally posted by Godsword: Perhaps you would like to explain why Newton, and Darwin, and multitudes of brilliant scientists happen to be Christians...
Just for the record, Darwin became an agnostic towards the end of his life. Newton denied the Trinity, so I suppose he qualifies as a 'Christian' if your definition is wide enough to accept Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.
Or is it just that your eyes glaze over in awed stupor at the shifting wisdom expressed in the theory of evolution, and you thus cannot see that its foundation is sand?
That's a good one, coming from someone who thinks terrestrial ecology can be explained by an old man taking thousands of animals onto a rickety boat to save them from a magic flood... WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States -
YOur pics cause me to giggle in twisted glee. Keep up the good work. Harbinger <logicmage@hotmail.com>
Mesa, AZ United States -
Yiay: I must say, Christians are utter fools.
Way to generalize there, Chief. The one who would label an entire group "fools" for the mind-boggling stupidity of a minority of them (an unsettlingly large minority, to be sure) is the one to whom such a label is more likely applicable. Crosis
United States - Yiay: I must say, Christians are utter fools.
Really? Because we aren't blinded by lies and faulty logic? Because we understand and know, and defend, the truth? Perhaps you would like to explain why Newton, and Darwin, and multitudes of brilliant scientists happen to be Christians, and "fundamentalist" Christians at that, yet they are "fools". Or is it just that your eyes glaze over in awed stupor at the shifting wisdom expressed in the theory of evolution, and you thus cannot see that its foundation is sand? Or is it just that anyone who happens to disagree with you must be foolish? Godsword
United States -
I must say, Christians are utter fools. Yiay
United States -
Winace,
Indeed. And when I'm through with you, you'll agree with me on everything - mindless assimilation is a never-ending mission, you know. Godsword
United States -
I can't believe I actually agree with Godsword on something. I guess the apocalypse is just around the corner for real... WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States - Steve L: LMAO You made my day. I love to see stupid assed christians get harassed. All you believers are total morons. I want to see you all brutally murdered.... BY ME!
Newton was a believer. Darwin was a believer. There are many PhD scientists who are believers. I am a believer, and my IQ is at least 150, and probably closer to 160 (standard deviation of 16 [Stanford-Binet]), for what that's worth. Of course, being called a moron by someone with the transcendent intelligence to PUBLICLY, on a public guestbook, proclaims his desire to murder members of a particular group is always encouraging. Godsword
United States -
LMAO You made my day. I love to see stupid assed christians get harassed. All you believers are total morons. I want to see you all brutally murdered.... BY ME! Steve L(Webpage) <stevenlavior103@msn.com>
United States -
Don't mind me, just conducting a weekly test of this thing. WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States - Crosis: That works reasonably well. However, the idea of a creature coming from a different one runs counter to what they were able to observe in the short term of a human lifespan (just in case you decide to take that out of context).
Same thing for Darwin and every other evolutionist.
Crosis: Without any knowledge of genetics, cellular structure, microscopic organisms, perhaps even molecular interactions, that would seem patently impossible to the earliest people.
And just how much of those disciplines did Darwin and the earliest evolutionists understand? I suppose a bit about "microscopic organisms", but from what I understand, very little about "cellular structure", next to nothing about "molecular interactions", and absolutely nothing about "genetics" (other than some general statistics). I submit that the "gist" of the idea of evolution is understandable without requiring any knowledge of the fields you mention. In order to understand the idea in more detail, and more "rigorously", of course they are essential.
Crosis: God may have left it as general as possible (just give them the general order of things, leave the how and when for later), or perhaps He did give them the story and people just wrote what they could understand of it.
If they could muck up the "gist" of evolution so badly as the account in Genesis has it, then there is no reason to trust anything else the Bible claims to be "God's Word", or God's inspired teaching. The Bible is quite clear that God created Adam and Eve supernaturally, immediately, and directly, and that they were two literal, historical human beings. It is also quite clear that there was no physical death until after Adam and Eve sinned. Either the Genesis account is a mucked up, untrustworthy mess (in which case, one could not trust anything in the Bible which was not independently verifiable), or else it is accurate and "God-inspired", in which case evolution is not true.
Godsword
United States -
Godsword: And, the actual math involved implies that the rim would need to be 4" wide, if I remember my calculations correctly - still rather thick for a metal basin "only" 15 feet or so in diameter, but not out of the question (remembering the "rounded"/"curved" feature of the rims of many bowls/basins). By the way, how did you come up with the "1/4 of a cubit" for the width of the rim of the basin?
If it's 30 cubits around, assuming a circular basin, that gives a diameter of 30/pi = 9.55 or so cubits (I rounded for ease of calculation last time). And if the outer diameter is 10 cubits, that leaves 0.45 cubits of rim, which requires it to be 0.225 cubits wide (since the outer diameter = inner diameter + twice the rim width).
Indeed. I'd let you borrow mine, but snail mail is too slow. Besides, there are plenty of free online Bibles, of various versions, from which to choose.
Good point, but this is a rather unimportant issue (if anything, it's probably due to either rounding error or a not-quite-circular basin which they happened to measure along the major axis).
But, I wonder, do you suppose the Hebrews from a few thousand years ago used the exact same categories as modern scientists?
No. It was kind of unnecessary for me to add that, I'll admit.
I imagine they would have been able to pick up on the idea just as well as a very intelligent high school or college student exposed to it for the very first time.
Unlikely, as they could not observe cellular structure or bacteria as we can today (with microscopes).
And, let's see if I, who am hardly God (that is, in case anyone is confused, I am most certainly not God), could convey the "gist" of the idea of evolution in, say, two or three relatively short paragraphs. (Let me know how I did.)
That works reasonably well. However, the idea of a creature coming from a different one runs counter to what they were able to observe in the short term of a human lifespan (just in case you decide to take that out of context). Without any knowledge of genetics, cellular structure, microscopic organisms, perhaps even molecular interactions, that would seem patently impossible to the earliest people. God may have left it as general as possible (just give them the general order of things, leave the how and when for later), or perhaps He did give them the story and people just wrote what they could understand of it.
On a related note, anyone happen to see today's (Sept 29) Bizarro comic? Rather amusing, though I'm not entirely sure whether he's mocking creationists or theistic evolutionists. Crosis
United States -
Crosis: Unlikely, as the rim of the basin would have to be 1/4 of a cubit wide in order for that to be correct (which seems like an awful waste of space) - the inner diameter would have to be approximately 9.5 cubits.
Ever seen large bowls with rounded (curled over) rims? Besides, a bowl/basin that is roughly 15 feet in diameter would certainly require a rather significant thickness of metal. And, the actual math involved implies that the rim would need to be 4" wide, if I remember my calculations correctly - still rather thick for a metal basin "only" 15 feet or so in diameter, but not out of the question (remembering the "rounded"/"curved" feature of the rims of many bowls/basins). By the way, how did you come up with the "1/4 of a cubit" for the width of the rim of the basin?
Crosis: Might help if I knew the context (I don't have a Bible handy at the moment, so I can't look it up).
Indeed. I'd let you borrow mine, but snail mail is too slow. Besides, there are plenty of free online Bibles, of various versions, from which to choose.
Crosis: More likely than not it's just a rounding error (though a pretty big one).
Possibly. Either explanation is reasonable.
Crosis: Technically, no, seeing as if they have more (or less) than six legs, they're not insects (spiders, for example, are arachnids). But yes, there are some critters that have hundreds of legs.
Okay. But, I wonder, do you suppose the Hebrews from a few thousand years ago used the exact same categories as modern scientists?
Crosis: Do you really think the earliest humans would have understood evolution if it was explained to them?
Certainly.
Crosis: Genetics, bacteria, cellular structure, all that ... their first reaction would likely have been "Huh?"
I imagine they would have been able to pick up on the idea just as well as a very intelligent high school or college student exposed to it for the very first time.
Crosis: Perhaps the gist of it (the important overview) was given to them, knowing that someday we would have the capacity to understand the details.
There you go - the "gist" of things is given. God didn't go into all the specific details about HOW He supernaturally created the Universe and Man. But He DOES give the "gist" of the idea that He did so immediately and directly, thus excluding evolution. And, let's see if I, who am hardly God (that is, in case anyone is confused, I am most certainly not God), could convey the "gist" of the idea of evolution in, say, two or three relatively short paragraphs. (Let me know how I did.)
"In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth, over billions of years using something like 'condensation', kind of like how things form in soup left in the open for many days. The Earth is a great big ball floating in space, and so are the Sun and the stars - and the Sun is just like the stars, only lots, lots closer to us. And, contrary to what you've previously heard, the Earth orbits the Sun, and not vice versa.
"Now, after this, God took of the ingredients in the Seas, and over millions of years, and after many additional changes brought on at random, eventually formed a very simple animal. It died at 'birth', but again after millions of years, two such very simple animals were formed, and they fell in love, and had babies. And over millions of years, after many changes, these creatures gained new features; and so some other, slightly different animals were formed, descendants of these previous creatures. And so on and so on for millions and millions of years. First came really, really tiny creatures, then eventually the fish, then the amphibians, then the dinosaurs, then birds, then mammals, then apes and chimps, and finally humans - a continuous stream of 'common descent'. Some fish developed the ability to crawl on land on their fins, and this ability grew and refined, until the amphibians resulted; and so on and so on, until one day, Adam and Eve popped out, met, fell in love, then made a big boo-boo. The rest is history, as the saying goes." Godsword
United States -
this site is hilarious Benjamin
Jerusalem, Israel - It looks like I've successfully debugged the guestbook script. My sincere apologies to anyone whose attempt at posting met with a "500 Infernal Server Error" in the meanwhile. It is my hope that your extended replies were saved to .TXT files (or at least the clipboard) beforehand. WinAce(Webpage) <allan_glenn@hotmail.com>
Queens, NY United States -
Godsword: Didn't you read what I said about that "brim/rim"? Tell me, was it from the outer or inner part of the brim that the measurement of 10 cubits was made? Could it not have been from the outer portion, whereas the circumference of "'thirty cubits'" described the inner portion? (After all, it would be the inner circumference which would be more telling for volume capacity, and it would be the diameter to the outer portion of the brim which would be more telling for the actual and full size of the basin/"sea".)
Unlikely, as the rim of the basin would have to be 1/4 of a cubit wide in order for that to be correct (which seems like an awful waste of space) - the inner diameter would have to be approximately 9.5 cubits. Might help if I knew the context (I don't have a Bible handy at the moment, so I can't look it up). More likely than not it's just a rounding error (though a pretty big one).
Godsword: after all, don't some insects have many more than just four, or six, or even eight legs
Technically, no, seeing as if they have more (or less) than six legs, they're not insects (spiders, for example, are arachnids). But yes, there are some critters that have hundreds of legs.
Godsword: And, if God is God, and was involved in Creation and is involved in human lives, why in the world couldn't He be more clear about human origins than to give some technically incorrect, mythological stories which vaguely portray the fact ...
Do you really think the earliest humans would have understood evolution if it was explained to them? Genetics, bacteria, cellular structure, all that ... their first reaction would likely have been "Huh?" Perhaps the gist of it (the important overview) was given to them, knowing that someday we would have the capacity to understand the details. Crosis
United States -
Bullwinkle: Rationally speaking -- there is no real proof that a Resurrection
occurred….
There IS circumstantial evidence afterwards, if we take the Scripture accounts
in Matthew, Luke/Acts, John, Nicodemus, etc. at face value, that Jesus appeared
to Mary Magdaline, to His mother, to many of His disciples, etc. after the third
day.
True enough. But what you say here is interesting. You’ve often been critical
of conservative Christians for taking scripture at “face value”. But this
circumstantial evidence for the resurrection, as you say, comes from taking
scripture at face value. How are the two reconciled? Is it accurate to say that
you take some scripture at face value and some not, based on your own particular
spiritual outlook?
Bullwinkle: To say that Jesus resurrected from the dead is a faith statement,
which cannot be literally proven: again, no one was there when it happened,
though we do have the Scriptural accounts of His appearance after His death.
Through those accounts, Christ's Resurrection is certainly implied; and if one
is a Christian it be accepted as a matter of faith.
Agreed.
Bullwinkle: This is probably more information than you needed or wanted --
and it may or may not answer your question satisfactorily - but I hope it
communicates to you where I am on the Resurrection and some of the claims of
Christianity.
I appreciate the thoughtful response. Let’s see if I can accurately sum up
here: You believe in some of things we find in scripture (i.e., the
resurrection), and there are some things you don’t believe in (demons).
Basically, what you read in scripture has to make sense in your worldview that
you have developed over your lifetime--what doesn’t make sense to you is
rejected and what does make sense is embraced. If so, would you say then that
the ultimate filter of what constitutes “spiritual truth” is your common
sense? If you were presented with an alternative that made more sense to you
than the Christ legend, would you pursue that faith instead?
Secondly – you state that your belief in the resurrection is a faith
statement, recognizing that there is no proof. Is the circumstantial evidence
enough to justify your faith in such an unlikely, incredible event? Or do you
think that your faith in Christ is more of an emotional byproduct of your
upbringing?
Also, Godsword brough up an interesting question. Angels figure very prominently
in Christian theology. But angels are just the flip-side of demons. Both are
sentient, spiritual entities, where the former serve the Ultimate Good while the
latter serve the Ultimate Evil. If demons are too silly to be believed, are
angels as well?
Saul B
United States -
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