@John:
At which point the fundtards claim that scientists won't debate them because they know the fundies are right.
They just don't get it. It's like when Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron agreed to debate evolution with the Rational Response Squad without appeals to scripture. Ray and Kirk then opened with a quote from Genesis!
Fundies think the bible is the literal truth, so when someone talks about wanting facts, they honestly think Genesis qualifies! Push 'em on it and they retreat into the circular logic we all know so well. How do we know Genesis is true? It says so in the bible. But how do we know the bible is true?! It says so in the bible.
When AV1611VET says he sees nothing wrong in circular logic, he isn't just stirring the gravy. Some people who would never accept a circular argument on any other subject[*] are psychically incapable of rejecting this one; there's too much riding on it.
[*
Kirk: Hey Dave, I hate to press you, but I need back those two C's I lent you last month.
Dave: I've already payed you back.
Kick: I don't think so.
Dave: Well, I remember paying you back, so I must have.
Kirk: No, I'm pretty sure you're mistaken.
Dave: I can't be. Look, if I remember it, it must have happened. That's what memories are. If it didn't happen, how could I have a memory of it?
Kirk: You could have dreamt it?
Dave: But then I'd remember dreaming it too. Nope, memories are recollections of things that have happened, so if I remember it it must have happened.
Kirk: But I don't remember it!
Dave: That's called forgetting. It's possible to forget something that has happened, but you can't remember something that hasn't, because then it wouldn't be remembering, right?
Kirk: But... but...
Dave: Good, glad that's settled. Okay then, I'll see you at eight.
Kirk: Eight? Why?
Dave: You said I should take your wife out for a meal, a movie and a motel! That's what the c-notes were for. Remember?
]