<<On Dinesh D'Souza's article "Where is Atheism When Bad Things Happen?">>
Let me first say that I'm a conservative(but not a Bush supporter) and a Christian.I just am wondering why the atheists care at all about what happened at VA. Tech?Let me preface by saying that I obviously realize that you do care,sincerely.But my question is how you can care if you believe there is no God?Why is there any reason to care about anyone but yourself(and even you is just molecules in motion,with nothing else but chance guiding what you do...which is,by the way,absurd in my opinion)?Why is there any reason for you to feel compasion on those beings that happen to be a part of your same species?Where does your moral obligation to feel anything for anyone come from?Where does love come from?
As already stated,I realize that of course you care about what happened to those people,of course you feel anger towards the madman who did it.My question is what,within your worldview, gives you any reason to "feel" anything?I'm sure there will be many attacks against my faith...but first try and answer this..then I'll answer yours.
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Okay, you got me. I don't care. I didn't know anybody at VA Tech. It was a sad story, and I was sad for a while, but I stopped thinking about it.
You know, it's posts like these that make me consider that the Christians are the true pessimists, if they're going to keep on saying that humans wouldn't have any semblance of importance if God didn't exist.
"I just am wondering why the atheists care at all about what happened at VA. Tech?"
Gee, maybe it has something to do with people being murdered!
"Why is there any reason to care about anyone but yourself..."
Because I believe that peoples' lives are precious. I believe that human life is valuable, and that life is more than a waiting period for some fictitious "final judgement." Because I am not a Christian, I cannot react to murders by shrugging my shoulders and saying, "Oh well, if they are like me they are with god, and if not they are getting what they deserve."
Many social animals manage to get along with, and look out for, each other just fine without either a belief in God or a soul.
A more telling question is, if all morality ultimately come from God, why does our view of what is moral and what isn't change over time?
Why do we outlaw slavery, when God and the bible condone it? Why do we make laws to protect non-combatants from war when God said they are to be killed or taken as 'spoils'?
Atheism =/= Amoralty...
As for the case of Virginia Tech, you could argue it was the failure of the college authorities to react to reports of the protagonist's deteriorating mental health, before the above incident happened...
it's pretty terrifying sometimes to think that these people, who claim to know no other reason to be good in any way shape or form without god, may very well only ever care in even the slightest way for those around them because of the threat of eternal damnation.
There are plenty of people who don't care about others, who live without compassion for other humans, or any kind of love.
They don't turn out very well, do they?
Following your question, why did 2/3 of the world, since they are not Christians?. When you appeal to humans, try to follow your leader, for a change, you can't appeal to a God you can't see if you don't appeal to EMPATHY in people you see.
It's called "empathy," something you Christians seem to seriously lack. I guess you've never heard of secular humanism.
My question is why would God let good people die at the hands of a madman?
I don't understand why a belief in god is supposed to make you care more about other people. Do these jackasses truly believe that christianity invented the concept of being nice to or caring about other people?
As with everything else our sense of empathy evolved. Clearly the human brain is complex enough to put ones self in anothers shoes. If for no other reason I felt sad for those murdered, people I did not know, because I could relate it to being murdered myself or having someone close to me murdered in the same way.
This emotion is the same for human beings across all divides, be they christian, muslim, jewish, buddhist or atheist. The fact of the matter is that morality does NOT come from religion; this has been demonstarted by something called "research" which goes beyond "pulling facts from one's anus".
That is all.
We could just as easily turn this around and say this about Christians. Why would Christians, who feel they have been saved by a personal relationship with Jesus, have any desire to care for their human being?
On the contrary, if we look at our life as being the only one we know for certain we're going to get, we can understand why other people don't want to die, and we can appreciate and respect the lives of other people just as we would ourselves. This is called "empathy", a vital emotion that has allowed us to work together and care for one another. Without it, mankind would have died out long ago.
Humans are social animals. Social animals care for other individuals as that will help them to survive. For the survival of the species empathy has evolved. Other animals clearly have empathy too, and they're certainly not religious. My cat comes to me when I'm sad, and tries to comfort me.
I care about other people because I can put myself in their position, imagine how I would feel if it happened to me.
Nature is guiding me, not chance (Natural Selection, ya know); the question "will this action cause harm to me or other humans, animals and plants?" helps me to do mostly good things.
My love probably comes from my parents. They instilled in me that I am precious and that other people are precious too, that life is worth living because of the people in our life.
You have every right to have whatever faith you want, as long as you don't try to push it onto me or onto others.
I know many religious people who don't have a problem with me not being religious.
Zbrah makes a valid point. To reject the existence of a God or gods is to ultimately reject metaphysical certainties and truths. Without them, all normative questions become open and relative. Ergo, the ethical question 'why care about these people' is perfectly valid. Some people will say 'empathy', and if they are sincere then that'll do. For anyone who wants to claim that it is 'right', you're going to have to prove it just as much as any theist has to prove the existence of their choice of deity or deities.
So-called 'new atheists' annoy me with their crypto-Christian morals. Calling Zbrah and his ilk idiots simply because they are asking this sort of question is daft in itself.
No Karlsbad, Zbrah does NOT make a valid point.
Empathy is a well established fact of human existence. It has been established repeatedly that deficits in empathy correspond with increasing likelihood of engaging in criminal behavior. A society that is rife with disruptive behavior produces more stress, less comfort and a higher chance of being killed for the members of the society. Clearly empathy is real and it is a good thing for people to have for its own sake. There is no need to appeal to the supernatural to certify it.
With regards to morals, it comes down to the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This principle was spelled out long before Jesus was born, in places that didn't even hear of him until the past couple of centuries. The Golden Rule exists because it is an effective and reasonable basis for a society to function on, i.e. when it is practiced, it yields real world benefits. Again, no appeal to the supernatural needs to be made.
Ethics was a well establish branch of philosophy long before Christianity appeared. It stemmed from the twin questions of what is the best sort of life to live and what will best help society function in the long run. These are the essential roots of ethics: no appeals to the supernatural are necessary.
Zbrah's confusion as to how non-religious people could possibly feel empathy reflects his/her narrow-minded, self-centered view that only those who see the world the way he/she does could possibly be "good." The fact is that the ability to feel compassion, social responsibility and, yes, love have nothing to do with ones gullibility in accepting supernatural explanations.
Let me ask you something- why do you Christians care when someone dies? I mean, you believe in Heaven and Hell, and that everyone is destined for one of those two places. If someone dies and goes to your destination resort, why aren't you happy, or jealous that they got to go and you didn't? I mean, where ever they are, it has to be better then here, right? I posit that Christians have no value for life. Life is meaningless to them, because hey, the good stuff happens when you die, right? We care, because we know that life is precious. We get only one shot at it. One. No afterlife. One life. And when it's gone, that is it. We care, because the loss of life is a tragedy. Or as you call it, 'wholesome family entertainment'.
Where is Gawd when bad things happen?
If Gawd is willing to stop a psycho Korean gunman, but isn't able, then he ain't fucking omnipotent. If Gawd is able, but not willing, then is he's fucking malevolent. If he's both able and willing, then why did a psycho Korean gunman kill all those people? If he's neither able nor willing, then why is he even a fucking god?
There's just no hope for you. You're pretty much claiming you wouldn't care about anything or anybody without your myth. You can't fathom why people would have compassion and empathy for their fellow human beings. I've seen this line of stupidity, anti-logic and total separation from the human race from fundamentalists before, marking you as one of the ignorant of that weakest of the faiths.
You're a despicable human being deluded and bent by ridiculous dogma.
Confused?
So were we! You can find all of this, and more, on Fundies Say the Darndest Things!
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